[Proposal] Vancouver & Edmonton and Off season Plan

[mll]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I could see Sutter 50% retained for Bouchard. 

Oilers biggest need is a D like Bouchard.  Hitchcock will certainly give his thoughts to Holland.  He might no longer be their coach but he is still under contract in an advisory role.  I also doubt he sees the need for a C like Sutter. He sees their strength as having McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH down the middle which does seem to align more with what some of the better teams are doing.  

Sharks -  Couture, Hertl, Thornton

Boston - Bergeron, Krejci, Coyle

 

 

[JM_]

9 minutes ago, mll said:

Oilers biggest need is a D like Bouchard.  Hitchcock will certainly give his thoughts to Holland.  He might no longer be their coach but he is still under contract in an advisory role.  I also doubt he sees the need for a C like Sutter. He sees their strength as having McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH down the middle which does seem to align more with what some of the better teams are doing.  

Sharks -  Couture, Hertl, Thornton

Boston - Bergeron, Krejci, Coyle

 

 

could be, but RNH doesn't measure up to any of those guys in a shut down role. Sutter would put RNH back into more of a scoring role where he's best suited imo. 

[Canucklehead73]

I don't want lucic on our team. 

 

We aren't that bad of a team to need to "weaponize" our cap space. How about we use our cap space to sign a good player?

 

Anything is better than having a lucic making 8 million+ on our 4th line. Literally anything imho.

 

Granted signing ufa players are a gamble as players like Erickson and lucic etc prove but I'd rather sign a player with a chance to make a difference than a bum like lucic.

 

Otherwise if you can trade away Erickson and or Sutter for 2nd round picks I'm with you there....

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I agree on the development part, I'd want him to be in Utica for most of the year if not all. 

 

I just think the knives will be out and no GM is going to do Holland any favours. Sutter gives them a nice stabilizing 3C which they really need. I don't see many teams able to offer that up to them, certainly not for a bargain and they can't go to free agency for it, they don't have the cap space. 

Sutter if healthy provides that. They're taking on a big risk taking on Sutter even at 50% retained. I would consider Sutter (with 50% retention) for Russell, Marody/Rasanen and a 2nd.

[J.I.A.H.N]

Edmonton...…...Lucic @ 50% + 2019 2nd (Lucic waves his NTC and allows trades for the remainder of his contract)(Lucic does this because anywhere is better than Edm)

 

Vancouver...…...Baertschi

 

Edmonton get rid of 3 Million in cap space, while adding a skilled LWer, at near the money as they sent out...……….win for Edmonton

Edmonton puts Baertschi on LTIR or Baertschi retires and Edmonton gets cap relief

 

Vancouver gains a high (41st OA Pick)

Vancouver gets a physical LWer who "could" play up the line up, if in a physical game

Vancouver can choose to not protect Lucic in the Seattle Entry draft

Vancouver can move Lucic out for 50% and saves 1.5 Million per

[theo5789]

3 hours ago, Seannnp said:

The final rankings are still to come out and Newhook could make it to the top 10. Caufield is in the top 5 now because of one tournament. Petey was ranked 7-10, we could've traded down and got an additional asset and I think we tried but eventually we took him with out 5th. Just because Newhook is ranked 10th doesn't necessarily mean he cant go earlier. Maybe he is in the top 8 for all the other teams on thier draft boards despite the rankings which means he wont be available at 10. The move to the 8th give us more options which I think can be huge when you have a tier of players between 6-10 that could go anywhere, otherwise at 10 you get stuck with that last player available in that tier. Hope that made sense.

 

I love Virtanen and definitely would not move him given his improvment. Virtanen has been increasing his output every year and has had an additional year to do so as well. Pujujlarvi has already attained that offensive production without the extra year playing on a team like the Oilers. I think Travis was instrumental in Virtanens development and feel he could be the same for Pool.

 

Do you propose we stay away from Lucic all together or that we try to get more out of this deal? The deal has to work for both sides and Im not willing to leave Pool, moving up two spots and an additional 2nd, which you said yourself could net us a gem (Woo, Madden, etc) just because they wont give us a little more as in my personal opinion I think the value is pretty darn close. We can figure out the waiver thing and cap issues when we get there. I have yet to see any team crumble under the cap. There has always been a way to get the needed cap relief. In our situation taking on an additional 6 million isn't a lot of cap to move. I think the only cap relief deal that was questionable was when Chicago traded away Panarin or something.

 

If we could get Holland to bite on 8th OA and Lucic for whatever, I'm all for it - I just don't think this will happen so I put forward an alternative.

I get what you're saying about the draft pick, but sometimes the last of the group could still end up a pretty good player. We stayed at 7 last year and got Hughes. The point is you only move up if there is a target player. Unless there's reason to believe Edmonton or #9 will take him and he's the target, then there's no reason to make the move. I personally don't think Newhook separates from the group enough to warrant the need to move up in this instance. Like you said if Byram, Dach, or Cozens (I would include Turcotte) do drop then sure. I think we can get more out of the deal by not moving up the two spots and we could still end up with Newhook anyway.

 

The defensive game is very hard to teach to a young player. This is why I'm impressed with Virtanen and am glad he's willing to learn. It's going to take much more time for Puljujarvi to learn this side if he ever does and especially because he hasn't been really pushed to up to this point. We also have to consider what has happened recently in that Jake's been upping his point totals every year while Puljujarvi had 9 points in 46 games last season. This is on a team where they have two 100+ point players whereas the Canucks' top guy had 66 points. So Puljujarvi should've had more offensive power to work with to get him acclimated with high end offense.

 

I personally would stay away from Lucic unless we get a king's ransom. If they don't want to bite, then we aren't desperate to make this move and it's more of a burden on them while they waste away years of McDavid.

 

I made another suggestion of Sutter 50% retained for Russell, Marody/Rasanen and 2nd. They shed a couple million, get a 3C which in turn frees up RNH to enhance their top 6. Their only risk is his health. We take on a cap dump, but expires in 2 years, so doesn't affect the EP extension era. Gain a young C and a good pick.

[brownky]

Every proposal that involves us getting Lucic in some way, that doesn't include McDavid retained 50%, is not worth it.

 

He's not what we want.

 

 

[mll]

8 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

could be, but RNH doesn't measure up to any of those guys in a shut down role. Sutter would put RNH back into more of a scoring role where he's best suited imo. 

Teams are moving away from having a pure shutdown line - Thornton and Coyle are scoring lines. 

 

The Canucks are at a different stage than Edmonton and what works for Vancouver as they rebuild is not necessarily what more competitive teams have as setup.  The better teams talk abut how they want every line to be able to play against any line and still produce.  Matchups are not to shelter but to exploit other teams' weaknesses.

Sutter/Beagle help here as Green tries to shelter Pettersson and Gaudette with o-zone starts but Edmonton doesn't need that with their Cs.  Scoring is also now coming more and more off the rush rather than off the cycle and the Edmonton Cs have the speed to play that kind of game.  They need skilled goal scoring wingers and PMDs who make plays more than anything else.

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by mll

[mll]

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Edited May 15, 2019 by mll

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Monteeun said:

But we are not that desperate...so it's best to leave the capspace wide open...

I’d rather weaponize it this way then sign middle of the road free agents.  

 

I like this trade although it’s tilted towards us.  

 

I think that without the 2nd round pick, it’s a pretty even trade. 

[Monteeun]

24 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said:

I’d rather weaponize it this way then sign middle of the road free agents.  

 

I like this trade although it’s tilted towards us.  

 

I think that without the 2nd round pick, it’s a pretty even trade. 

With cap space, u can do whatever u want...

This trade is not exactly necessary.

[Hindustan Smyl]

2 hours ago, brownky said:

Every proposal that involves us getting Lucic in some way, that doesn't include McDavid retained 50%, is not worth it.

 

He's not what we want.

 

 

I disagree.  A deal centered around Lucic for Eriksson would net us more assets since Eriksson Hans more perceived current value than Lucic.   Not only would we possibly receive a higher draft pick (8th OA/10OA swap), but we would also get someone that would be more valuable to the Canucks.  Lucic is one of the toughest guys in the league, and we wouldn't see more Matheson/Pettersson type situations in the future as a result.   Guys like Pettersson and Hughes need to be protected......especially come playoff time.

 

Furthermore, I think Lucic being surrounded by friends and family would help get him going again.  The guy hasn’t been the same player since his father passed, but I think being around family and friends might help that.   I also suspect that there’s a part of Lucic that wants to repair his relationship with Vancouver.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Hindustan Smyl

[vannuck59]

13 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Edmonton...…...Lucic @ 50% + 2019 2nd (Lucic waves his NTC and allows trades for the remainder of his contract)(Lucic does this because anywhere is better than Edm)

 

Vancouver...…...Baertschi

 

Edmonton get rid of 3 Million in cap space, while adding a skilled LWer, at near the money as they sent out...……….win for Edmonton

Edmonton puts Baertschi on LTIR or Baertschi retires and Edmonton gets cap relief

 

Vancouver gains a high (41st OA Pick)

Vancouver gets a physical LWer who "could" play up the line up, if in a physical game

Vancouver can choose to not protect Lucic in the Seattle Entry draft

Vancouver can move Lucic out for 50% and saves 1.5 Million per

I see Edmonton retain 2 mil and no more but I like where your going with this I don't think Holland will trade their First but a second he would.

Lucic would put fear on Pettersson's wing and may surprise you.

[vannuck59]

5 hours ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

I disagree.  A deal centered around Lucic for Eriksson would net us more assets since Eriksson Hans more perceived current value than Lucic.   Not only would we possibly receive a higher draft pick (8th OA/10OA swap), but we would also get someone that would be more valuable to the Canucks.  Lucic is one of the toughest guys in the league, and we wouldn't see more Matheson/Pettersson type situations in the future as a result.   Guys like Pettersson and Hughes need to be protected......especially come playoff time.

 

Furthermore, I think Lucic being surrounded by friends and family would help get him going again.  The guy hasn’t been the same player since his father passed, but I think being around family and friends might help that.   I also suspect that there’s a part of Lucic that wants to repair his relationship with Vancouver.

This nailed it

[JM_]

7 hours ago, mll said:

Teams are moving away from having a pure shutdown line - Thornton and Coyle are scoring lines. 

 

The Canucks are at a different stage than Edmonton and what works for Vancouver as they rebuild is not necessarily what more competitive teams have as setup.  The better teams talk abut how they want every line to be able to play against any line and still produce.  Matchups are not to shelter but to exploit other teams' weaknesses.

Sutter/Beagle help here as Green tries to shelter Pettersson and Gaudette with o-zone starts but Edmonton doesn't need that with their Cs.  Scoring is also now coming more and more off the rush rather than off the cycle and the Edmonton Cs have the speed to play that kind of game.  They need skilled goal scoring wingers and PMDs who make plays more than anything else.

 

just to push the Sutter narrative (likely farther that it should but here goes) - he's actually been able to score off the rush as well. 

 

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see how EDM transforms into that team even within 2 seasons. I also see the value of hemming in teams in their own end with good defensive players, you can see the damage being done to Carolina with that style of play. I just think EDM having an actual quality shut down player like Sutter gives them another good tool in the box to get them to the playoffs next year, because you have to wonder how patient McDavid is. Does he want to wait a couple of more season to build what you're talking about? 

 

 

 

[Hindustan Smyl]

8 minutes ago, vannuck59 said:

This nailed it

Thanks man.

 

Perhaps I’m a sucker for a good ol’ fashion Hollywood type ending, but Lucic finishing his career in Vancouver and helping us win a cup really would be a story.   The local boy who became a perceived traitor and was treated poorly by the fans soon afterwards, returns to his old stomping grounds, wins a cup, becomes a hero, and repairs his relationship.  I dunno......?  :-p

 

In all seriousness though - In a best case scenario, Lucic works with Horvat’s skating coach and becomes the Milan Lucic of 5 years ago.  Worst case scenario - Lucic is our modern day version of Odjick and Brashear with a little more hockey apititude (albeit extremely overpaid).

 

No matter how you slice it though, absolutely no one would dare lay a hand on Pettersson or Hughes.

[theo5789]

7 hours ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

I disagree.  A deal centered around Lucic for Eriksson would net us more assets since Eriksson Hans more perceived current value than Lucic.   Not only would we possibly receive a higher draft pick (8th OA/10OA swap), but we would also get someone that would be more valuable to the Canucks.  Lucic is one of the toughest guys in the league, and we wouldn't see more Matheson/Pettersson type situations in the future as a result.   Guys like Pettersson and Hughes need to be protected......especially come playoff time.

 

Furthermore, I think Lucic being surrounded by friends and family would help get him going again.  The guy hasn’t been the same player since his father passed, but I think being around family and friends might help that.   I also suspect that there’s a part of Lucic that wants to repair his relationship with Vancouver.

Watching Eriksson in the World Championships and you know there's more to offer still from Eriksson. The guy can clearly still skate and is putting up numbers (I believe on Pettersson's line too). Lucic can be a imposing figure, but you know he's not going to be able to keep up with a line that has Pettersson (hasn't worked out well for Lucic in Edmonton when they had the opportunity to have him with McDavid). Lucic's best years were with a team that played with brute force which is going away in today's game which is more about speed.

 

So Eriksson at worst provides a strong defensive presence and if we are looking at potential for Lucic, Eriksson could find his offense again on a new team giving them a top 6 player. Add in the fact that Eriksson has one less year on his deal and the majority of his contract is paid by July 1st so he doesn't actually cost a team the salary of his cap. Oilers ridding themselves of Lucic removes the NMC aspect meaning they can protect another player in the expansion. So the Oilers would make the Eriksson for Lucic swap any day of the week if it only costs them to move down 2 spots where all the players in that region are pretty close in rankings anyway.

 

So no I don't think we gain enough here to make that deal IMO. It'll be a nice story if Lucic can turn it around here, but this isn't a charity league. He needs to prove his worth. If we are only bringing him here for his truculence, then there are much cheaper options out there. If Lucic provided everything that is hoped for here, Edmonton wouldn't even be considering moving him because Edmonton could also use everything as described.

[aGENT]

8 hours ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

Not only would we possibly receive a higher draft pick (8th OA/10OA swap), but we would also get someone that would be more valuable to the Canucks.

The difference in value between 8th and 10th, particularly in this draft, is highly negligible. You're getting a same-value player at either spot. The value's just not there for taking on a slow, $6m x 4 year, 4th liner. Benning's not here to do EDM favours.

 

And no, Lucic is not more valuable to the Canucks. He's less valuable, with a worse contract (and they have zero leverage to boot). Hence why they'd need to add if we were in fact sending Eriksson back (I'd rather move him elsewhere personally). Barring some miracle improvement in his skating/play, he'd basically be a $6m, 12th/13th forward. The only way that's worthwhile to take on is with major sweetener. You're acquiring the sweetener at the cost of Lucic, not the 'gain' of him.

 

8 hours ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

Lucic is one of the toughest guys in the league, and we wouldn't see more Matheson/Pettersson type situations in the future as a result. 

Gudbranson is arguably tougher and yet those situations still occasionally occured... They can't be on the ice for 60 minutes (particularly if they're not top pair/first line players).

 

2 hours ago, vannuck59 said:

I see Edmonton retain 2 mil and no more but I like where your going with this I don't think Holland will trade their First but a second he would.

Lucic would put fear on Pettersson's wing and may surprise you.

Lucic can't play on EP's wing, he's too damn slow. Same reason he can't play on McD's wing. The only way this remotely makes sense to us is by adding the 8th OA to our 10th OA and having two top 10 picks. The other pieces around that can change (Sutter with or without retention, Russell, Manning, Puljujarvi etc) but without the 8th OA, this is a non starter IMO. If Holland isn't prepared to give it up, he can enjoy another 4 years of $6m, 4th line Lucic or find another sucker.

Edited May 15, 2019 by aGENT

[Hindustan Smyl]

51 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Watching Eriksson in the World Championships and you know there's more to offer still from Eriksson. The guy can clearly still skate and is putting up numbers (I believe on Pettersson's line too). Lucic can be a imposing figure, but you know he's not going to be able to keep up with a line that has Pettersson (hasn't worked out well for Lucic in Edmonton when they had the opportunity to have him with McDavid). Lucic's best years were with a team that played with brute force which is going away in today's game which is more about speed.

 

So Eriksson at worst provides a strong defensive presence and if we are looking at potential for Lucic, Eriksson could find his offense again on a new team giving them a top 6 player. Add in the fact that Eriksson has one less year on his deal and the majority of his contract is paid by July 1st so he doesn't actually cost a team the salary of his cap. Oilers ridding themselves of Lucic removes the NMC aspect meaning they can protect another player in the expansion. So the Oilers would make the Eriksson for Lucic swap any day of the week if it only costs them to move down 2 spots where all the players in that region are pretty close in rankings anyway.

 

So no I don't think we gain enough here to make that deal IMO. It'll be a nice story if Lucic can turn it around here, but this isn't a charity league. He needs to prove his worth. If we are only bringing him here for his truculence, then there are much cheaper options out there. If Lucic provided everything that is hoped for here, Edmonton wouldn't even be considering moving him because Edmonton could also use everything as described.

Eriksson is a huge mystery to me.  

 

If he’s still that damn good, then why hasn’t he shown this side of his in Vancouver?

 

Two coaches now (WD and Green) saw red flags in the way Eriksson was playing here and hence, kept him on the 3rd line.  

 

I haven't been following the World’s at all but if Eriksson really is showing good chemistry with Pettersson, then let them play together when the season starts FFS.

[Seannnp]

Lucic, 8th OA, 40 OA, Pujuljarvi, Russell

 

for

 

Sutter (50% retained)

 

We take on 12.5million in salary (6.5million off the books in two years). At that time we can figure out what to do with the Lucic contract which would get rid of the remaining 6million. We get 8th for taking on Lucic and Pool for taking on Russell, along with the 2nd for Sutter 50% retained. Edmonton can go ahead and make a splash in free agency.

 

We then trade Goldobin, 38thOA, 40thOA to NYR for 20th OA. NY is only 1 year into their rebuild and would likely like adding two top 4 picks along with a Russian semi-prospect that could still work out for them.

 

 

8thOA - Podkolzin/Boldy

10thOA - Krebs/Newhook - Could always trade down to 12-14th and may still have one or both of these available as well if dmen start be taken

20thOA - Seider

 

What could our 1st in 2020, Lind, and Eriksson fetch us in a trade? PK Subban, Mike Hoffman, etc.