Anson Carter says race played a factor in Canucks contract negotiations

[coho8888]

2 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

But he wasn't treated differently in relation to his departure....other guys were let go too and he was actually offered a chance to stay but declined it.  

 

 

I agree.  I was just responding to the poster saying that he didn't think that Carter said the Canucks were racist for not signing him but that race played a factor in their offer.

 

To me if that is what Carter actually thought then he did think that the canucks were racist because anytime race "plays a factor" that would be construed as racism.

[coho8888]

1 minute ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

Yes. except he didn’t say it was a fact, these are just his thoughts. I can also see why he is thinking the way he is  

I sympathize with him.  He probably endured a lot of that in his career but it doesn't make it right to state his unsubstantiated opinion about a particular instance that potentially damages the reputation of a team.  

[-DLC-]

2 hours ago, coho8888 said:

I agree.  I was just responding to the poster saying that he didn't think that Carter said the Canucks were racist for not signing him but that race played a factor in their offer.

 

To me if that is what Carter actually thought then he did think that the canucks were racist because anytime race "plays a factor" that would be construed as racism.

I think what it highlights and I maybe have overlooked is that once you've been subjected to and have experienced racism, it impacts you dramatically.  It's "there" as part of your life and you question decisions and never really know if you're being assessed fairly or not.  It's likely deep rooted and I suppose my white privilege has me overlook that part.  I have to change my thinking to put myself in the other guys' shoes.   Doesn't mean it (racism) was present, just that someone had to wonder if it was and that's a problem in itself.  

 

Hopefully these conversations will lead toward a time and place where no one has to consider the colour of their skin in the workplace. world.

 

I still think the decision was a $$ one and not discriminatory but Anson obviously felt the way he did for a reason and who am I to discount that?

[Ballisticsports.]

20 hours ago, DeNiro said:

Man I liked Carter when he was here but I don’t respect this at all.

 

He’s taking a big leap here to try and throw himself into the conversation.
 

Maybe if he had examples of Nonis being a racist he would be on to something. But don’t cry about not getting a contract 14 years later. If Nonis was a racist would have signed him in the first place?

Exactly what i thought, if they were racist, they would not have signed him in the 1st place as was Rai, Subban etc.

Sour grapes for a guy who never appreciated the opportunity he was given, He was a complementary player to the Sedins, just like Macdonald was to Gretzky, whom i recall Sather saying a fire hydrant could score 40 goals playing wing with Gretzky (imagine what Carter would make of that now, if he was MacDonald)

[buddhahoodlum]

Anson Carter was a marginal player, not a marginalized one.

[KKnight]

If the Canucks organization was so racist we wouldn't have been trying to acquire Subban on 2 seperate occasions. 

 

Way to go Carter, clinging to any hope of staying relevant. 

[ItsAllOursBoys]

[Smashian Kassian]

8 hours ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

When it comes to that statement, I am not sure but I think I can see where he is coming from. I am sure he probably feels his season was viewed more as a "fluke" because of his skin colour, whereas a white player may have got a big contract.

Just as an example, Louis Eriksson had 0.65 ppg over his past 4 seasons heading into Free Agency and was almost 31 years old, he was viewed as one of the top FA and as we all know signed a $6 million per year deal. Well Carter also averaged 0.65 ppg over his past 4 seasons heading into FA, now he was slightly older having just turned 32. 

 

7 hours ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

Yes he had a down year the year before the Canucks but you are wrong that those other years were early in his career. 

 

2001-02 - EDM - 60 points in 82 games

2002-03 - EDM/NYR - 60 points in 79 games

2003-04 - NYR/WSH/LAK - 28 points in 77 games

2004-05 - Lockout

2005-06 - VAN - 55 points in 81 games

 

3 of his past 4 seasons with 55 points or more.

 

Maybe race played a role in him not getting a bigger/better deal than he got from someone, I just don't think that someone was the Canucks considering the circumstance. They obvious didn't feel race was an issue the year prior when they thought he could still add something to the team in a prominent top 6 role.

 

The other thing to consider was this was the first year after the salary cap had come into play. Carter had a down year before the lockout year (+ the lockout year), so essentially two 'off' years as your entering your 30's.

 

The Canucks signed him as a prove it contract, Carter proved it and the Canucks couldn't afford what he was worth at that point. 

 

Its too bad how it worked out. In a way Carter kind of reminds of the situation we are in with Toffoli. Finally we add a great scoring option to the other top 6 line & now we probably can't afford too keep him.

 

[Nucksfollower1983]

Quote

 

lol ya because he really went and lit it up after he left Vancouver. If he were smart he would have realized he got carried by the Sedins and enjoyed the ride just like Burrows did.

[Russ]

8 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

I guess that's part of it....that if you've experienced racism throughout your lifetime you relate decisions that are made about you to that.  It's sad that he endured struggles due to racism and my angry reaction might have overlooked that.  That if you've been subjected to it it sticks and you carry it around.  It's truly sad...people are people.  Period.

 

I just think that if he looked at this realistically...he was here for a year and we brought in Lu and did have to pay the Sedins and tough decisions were made that were more likely related to money than race.  When we let Jovo go, that hurt (too).  So it wasn't just about him...it was a decision made based on having to let players go.  Happens in hockey all the time and this current team will have to make some of those choices along the way.

 

The wounds of racism likely run deep and it makes people question things.  But I still do feel it does more harm than good to just throw out "racism" when things unfold in an unfavourable way because all hockey players are subject to being traded and let go.  The fact that he was offered a slight increase that he declined made this his decision, not the team's.  

 

Racism is ugly and needs to stop....however, players don't always get what they want when negotiating contracts because it's not ONLY about them.  I mean, Wayne Gretzky got moved...it's not a far stretch to see Anson Carter go too.  He rejected the deal based on wanting more.  Not to say he didn't encounter racism....but this doesn't seem to fit as part of that.  A business deal.  He had some great results during his career, but no player is untouchable.

 

And the cap had just come in making teams have to start adjusting who they paid, etc.  It was a time when we started seeing more young guys play earlier in their careers than getting stuck down in the minors for a long time because if you got similar play, a guy on ELC at 600k or whatever it was at that point started becoming much more valuable than the vet making 1.5 mill. When you got the stars eating up your cap, especially right after the lockout when teams hadn't prepped for a sudden slap of the cap from their free spending ways. 

[EternalCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, Russ said:

And the cap had just come in making teams have to start adjusting who they paid, etc.  It was a time when we started seeing more young guys play earlier in their careers than getting stuck down in the minors for a long time because if you got similar play, a guy on ELC at 600k or whatever it was at that point started becoming much more valuable than the vet making 1.5 mill. When you got the stars eating up your cap, especially right after the lockout when teams hadn't prepped for a sudden slap of the cap from their free spending ways. 

Per what Deb said, I don't think we can fault Anson for feeling like race was a factor.  Maybe there were certain things said or insinuated which Anson isn't disclosing.  I'm a person of color myself and I think it's fair to say that it's hard not to extract race as a feeling like a factor from various types of experiences.  I didn't listen to the interview but I suppose there may also be a difference between him saying that race "100% was a factor" and with it being "100% was the factor" in contract negotiations.  The latter is a much stronger statement and the former is much harder to prove or disprove.  Race could very well have been a factor, even subconsciously, but one of many.

 

If the main evidence of race being a factor is that the Canucks decided to focus on the Sedins and were only willing to give Anson a modest salary increase, then it certainly is hard to say that it was a material factor in the decision even if it was one factor.  Throughout the Sedins' career, it was hard to find a partner for them largely because one they had found their game, they seemed to make just about anyone a better player.  Anson was one of the first to have sustained success over a season but he had also come off two pretty bad ones.  It's not like the Canucks' decision not to offer Anson more didn't hurt them to some degree.  They had a revolving door of wingers for the Sedins for another 2-3 seasons before the Burrows experiment happened and exploded.  I think fans have always wonder whether if they had kept Anson, then the Sedins and the team could have enjoyed more success, and earlier.

[alt kilgore]

I think it was wrong not to offer him more, but IMO its just that the Canucks were cheap SOB's.  Until Benning, who realizes you have to even overpay sometimes. They've low balled more players than Anson Carter through the years. Giving Bure grief when they didn't have to, holding out on his legally owed lock-out money, telling him his first 60 goals season was a fluke in order not to sign him to what he deserved sooner. That's when the trade demands started, completely could have been avoided. Other examples in the organization.

 

Kinda sad to be using the present day uprising against average black's violent mistreatment, for a millionaire to be complaining about not making more millions for similar reasons about racial discrimination even though he has no proof.

[WeneedLumme]

11 hours ago, kilgore said:

I think it was wrong not to offer him more, but IMO its just that the Canucks were cheap SOB's.  Until Benning, who realizes you have to even overpay sometimes. They've low balled more players than Anson Carter through the years. Giving Bure grief when they didn't have to, holding out on his legally owed lock-out money, telling him his first 60 goals season was a fluke in order not to sign him to what he deserved sooner. That's when the trade demands started, completely could have been avoided. Other examples in the organization.

 

Kinda sad to be using the present day uprising against average black's violent mistreatment, for a millionaire to be complaining about not making more millions for similar reasons about racial discrimination even though he has no proof.

What a surprise, another nonsensical rant against the Canucks, complete with fabricated facts. FYI, the Canucks did not "give Bure grief when they didn't have to".

 

Bure's agent screwed up by giving Bure bad advice (telling him that his contract was "absolutely guaranteed" when it was not), and by not insisting on a "personal services" contract, which was the only type of contract that was not subject to labour disputes.

 

The Canucks obviously did not "hold out on his legally owed money". If they had, of course they would have been forced to pay it.

[Tracksuit]

It’s self serving slander like this that detracts from the real racially motivated garbage.

he had a great year because he meshed well with the twins look no further than his season prior (Traded twice)and after he left (Traded once)  then signed with the Swiss the following season  to see it was good assessment of his value/ability.
Race had nothing to do with his inability to be effective without the twins at that point in his career. 

 

[Tracksuit]

12 hours ago, kilgore said:

I think it was wrong not to offer him more, but IMO its just that the Canucks were cheap SOB's.  Until Benning, who realizes you have to even overpay sometimes. They've low balled more players than Anson Carter through the years. Giving Bure grief when they didn't have to, holding out on his legally owed lock-out money, telling him his first 60 goals season was a fluke in order not to sign him to what he deserved sooner. That's when the trade demands started, completely could have been avoided. Other examples in the organization.

 

Kinda sad to be using the present day uprising against average black's violent mistreatment, for a millionaire to be complaining about not making more millions for similar reasons about racial discrimination even though he has no proof.

Yeah because overpaying has worked out so well for Jim’s capped crunched group.LE sutter Ect  are such dominant well spent cash. Bure was a mess of egos Gm agent player all having pzssing contest and nobody won. (Least of all the fans )
Seems like his predecessors might have done better at not over valuing well aged veterans. Carter played one More nhl season after the Nucks on two teams. Then went to the Swiss league for a whooping one season. 
 

[alt kilgore]

2 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

What a surprise, another nonsensical rant against the Canucks, complete with fabricated facts. FYI, the Canucks did not "give Bure grief when they didn't have to".

 

Bure's agent screwed up by giving Bure bad advice (telling him that his contract was "absolutely guaranteed" when it was not), and by not insisting on a "personal services" contract, which was the only type of contract that was not subject to labour disputes.

 

The Canucks obviously did not "hold out on his legally owed money". If they had, of course they would have been forced to pay it.

Here's an good article that summarizes the tainted history of Canuck management towards Pavel.

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/from-the-archives-why-pavel-bure-wanted-out-of-vancouver

 

“I specifically asked Ron to put in (the new deal) that I was to get paid (if there was a lockout) because I thought there probably would be one. And the contract is pretty clear that I was to get paid.

“But they refused.”

Bure remained out of training camp after the lockout for five days, but was talked into going back after the Canucks agreed to negotiate. Quinn claimed he was told by the league not to pay guaranteed contracts until it was settled for all NHL players. But the issue dragged on and on and Bure became increasingly steamed.

“I didn’t want to sue the team. I

didn’t think it would be proper to sue the team you were playing for.”

Bure was owed $1.7 million US under the terms of the deal, but after agent Mike Gillis became his agent, he managed to get $1 million of it paid.

“I finally got part of that money three years later.”

 

Thanks for making me research again, I forgot about yet another cheap shot they fired at him when they ambushed him with a Canadian dollar contract, when every other star player was getting US dollars.

 

After 17 months of negotiation, a five-year, $14.7-million contract — almost identical to the ones Sergei Fedorov and Alex Mogilny were signing in Detroit and Buffalo at the time — was agreed upon.

Or at least Bure thought.

When he sat down to sign it, he found the Canucks had put everything in Canadian funds when in fact Fedorov and Mogilny were getting U.S. funds. No NHL star ever signs a Canadian-funds deal and the Canucks knew this.

 

Yet one more cheep shot which started when he first arrived as was made to pay out 50,000 out of his own pocket to the Russian Fed. before he ever earned a nickel.

Was Pavel, as a new Soviet immigrant, coming from that kind of corrupt society overly suspicious, and cautious ...., perhaps.  Did he maybe react too quick and aggressive to any perception of being slighted? Ask Churla.

But that was no excuse for the pity poor way management handled him from the get go.

But keep on believing the party line if it makes you feel better about your Vancouver Canucks.

[alt kilgore]

1 hour ago, Tracksuit said:

Yeah because overpaying has worked out so well for Jim’s capped crunched group.LE sutter Ect  are such dominant well spent cash. Bure was a mess of egos Gm agent player all having pzssing contest and nobody won. (Least of all the fans )
Seems like his predecessors might have done better at not over valuing well aged veterans. Carter played one More nhl season after the Nucks on two teams. Then went to the Swiss league for a whooping one season. 
 

I was only stating that JB understands, more than any predecessor, that you have to jump in and overpay FA to get the ones you want. I actually agree with your premise that JB screwed the pooch in WHO he applied that tactic on, and WHEN he did it.  If you've read any of my past posts I'm one of the most critical on JB's early choices to trade away picks and prospects for overpriced veterans, most past their primes.  For all his prowess on draft day, he's hitting about .150 on FAs.  I was only making that first point to compare with previous management's miserly behaviour. 

[Baggins]

1 hour ago, kilgore said:

Here's an good article that summarizes the tainted history of Canuck management towards Pavel.

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/from-the-archives-why-pavel-bure-wanted-out-of-vancouver

 

“I specifically asked Ron to put in (the new deal) that I was to get paid (if there was a lockout) because I thought there probably would be one. And the contract is pretty clear that I was to get paid.

“But they refused.”

Bure remained out of training camp after the lockout for five days, but was talked into going back after the Canucks agreed to negotiate. Quinn claimed he was told by the league not to pay guaranteed contracts until it was settled for all NHL players. But the issue dragged on and on and Bure became increasingly steamed.

“I didn’t want to sue the team. I

didn’t think it would be proper to sue the team you were playing for.”

Bure was owed $1.7 million US under the terms of the deal, but after agent Mike Gillis became his agent, he managed to get $1 million of it paid.

“I finally got part of that money three years later.”

 

Thanks for making me research again, I forgot about yet another cheap shot they fired at him when they ambushed him with a Canadian dollar contract, when every other star player was getting US dollars.

 

After 17 months of negotiation, a five-year, $14.7-million contract — almost identical to the ones Sergei Fedorov and Alex Mogilny were signing in Detroit and Buffalo at the time — was agreed upon.

Or at least Bure thought.

When he sat down to sign it, he found the Canucks had put everything in Canadian funds when in fact Fedorov and Mogilny were getting U.S. funds. No NHL star ever signs a Canadian-funds deal and the Canucks knew this.

 

Yet one more cheep shot which started when he first arrived as was made to pay out 50,000 out of his own pocket to the Russian Fed. before he ever earned a nickel.

Was Pavel, as a new Soviet immigrant, coming from that kind of corrupt society overly suspicious, and cautious ...., perhaps.  Did he maybe react too quick and aggressive to any perception of being slighted? Ask Churla.

But that was no excuse for the pity poor way management handled him from the get go.

But keep on believing the party line if it makes you feel better about your Vancouver Canucks.

A one-sided view. If the NHL office instructed Canucks management not to pay until the clauses legality is settled for all players (the NHL viewed it as a violation of labour law) is it actually Canucks management playing games or simply following League direction? It was the league challenging the legality of the clause not the Canucks after all. If the clause was 100% legal would they have negotiated an out of court settlement? I would argue Gillis recommended the settlement because it could drag on and they 'could' eventually lose in court.

 

As to "all stars were paid in US$" this is not accurate. There was no such contractual requirement at that time and was purely part of the negotiations, not a given. The question that isn't asked or answered is in Bure's retelling: did Bure's agent specify US$ in his negotiations? If not why on earth would the team write the contract up in more expensive US$? If his agent assumed it would be US that's on him as he didn't do his job very well. It could also explain his being replaced by Gillis as Bure's agent.

 

While Gillis was GM here Bure's laundry list was reprinted by The Province while debate swirled about retiring his number. When asked about it Gillis said "nobody knows the whole story" indicating Bure's retelling is one-sided and not the whole truth.

[alt kilgore]

19 minutes ago, Baggins said:

A one-sided view. If the NHL office instructed Canucks management not to pay until the clauses legality is settled for all players (the NHL viewed it as a violation of labour law) is it actually Canucks management playing games or simply following League direction? It was the league challenging the legality of the clause not the Canucks after all. If the clause was 100% legal would they have negotiated an out of court settlement? I would argue Gillis recommended the settlement because it could drag on and they 'could' eventually lose in court.

 

As to "all stars were paid in US$" this is not accurate. There was no such contractual requirement at that time and was purely part of the negotiations, not a given. The question that isn't asked or answered is in Bure's retelling: did Bure's agent specify US$ in his negotiations? If not why on earth would the team write the contract up in more expensive US$? If his agent assumed it would be US that's on him as he didn't do his job very well. It could also explain his being replaced by Gillis as Bure's agent.

 

While Gillis was GM here Bure's laundry list was reprinted by The Province while debate swirled about retiring his number. When asked about it Gillis said "nobody knows the whole story" indicating Bure's retelling is one-sided and not the whole truth.

Pretty weak excuse making. 

- They took three fricken years to settle with him on the lockout money

- No one is saying there was a CBA type legal agreement to pay in US funds, and maybe his agent did not do his due diligence, but its a stretch to think Bure's camp would not assume he would be paid in US funds as Mogilny and Fedorov and even most other NHL players were being paid with. And stars were ALWAYS paid in US funds.

- Its quite an assumption to think Gillis's statement about nobody knowing the whole story would be bad for his former client, maybe it would have been worse for management.

 

You can try and throw out a few superfluous maybes and conspiracy theories into the equation,  but if you look at the overall treatment through his whole time here, add everything up, it does not look good on management.  Sure Bure may have been overly sensitive.  I have a brother-in-law that grew up in the old completely corrupted Soviet system, he was, and even now is, very suspicious and cynical of any decisions by bureaucracies that have some kind of authority over even small aspects of his life. But no amount of excuse making, even if you make a few small counterpoints, can erase how they treated Pavel Bure on the whole.

[RonMexico]

17 hours ago, kilgore said:

I think it was wrong not to offer him more, but IMO its just that the Canucks were cheap SOB's.  Until Benning, who realizes you have to even overpay sometimes. They've low balled more players than Anson Carter through the years. Giving Bure grief when they didn't have to, holding out on his legally owed lock-out money, telling him his first 60 goals season was a fluke in order not to sign him to what he deserved sooner. That's when the trade demands started, completely could have been avoided. Other examples in the organization.

 

Kinda sad to be using the present day uprising against average black's violent mistreatment, for a millionaire to be complaining about not making more millions for similar reasons about racial discrimination even though he has no proof.

No proof? Cancel culture doesn't care about proof. The Canucks organization should be cancelled over this obvious racism.