Was Virtanen mismanaged here?

[Baggins]

On 9/10/2020 at 10:17 PM, Tystick said:

I think management stepped in when he was running everyone over and told him to stop. 

If that's the case, then yes he was terribly mismanaged.

You need to teach him how to use his tool set effectively.

There's a big difference between finishing checks and chasing hits. Back when Bieksa was called up everybody loved him because he hit everything that moved and fought pretty regularly. By his second full season the complaints started that he wasn't hitting and fighting as much. It turned out AV sat him down with game film and told him to stop chasing hits. He showed him plays where he chased hits and plays where he finished checks. If the target has already made the play, without being rushed, by chasing that hit you're just taking yourself out of the play. Finish checks where you're rushing the targets play and limiting his option while trying forcing mistakes. You need to recognize the difference. He also told him he was more valuable on the ice than in the box. You don't have to fight everybody that looks at you wrong, pick your fights better. Bieksa listened and started making better decisions. He started playing smarter. But Bieksa is a smart guy.

 

Jake hasn't been mishandled he just doesn't get it. The message has been the same for five years - be hard on the forecheck, hard on the backcheck and finish your checks (different from chasing hits). Do it consistently and scoring chances will result. He doesn't seem to get the difference between finishing a check and chasing a hit. He'll veer away when he's so close he should finish check and at times still chases hits. If that was his only problem you could argue it will come. Which brings it to this: It's been plain to see his effort is inconsistent and that's on him. He's shown up to camp twice in five years in poor shape showing a lack of commitment and drive. That's on him. When he keeps getting the same message and doesn't follow through - it's on him. The coaches job is to get the most out of players. It's up to the player to listen and learn. Jake is either too lazy or too stupid. Possibly both. He has the tool box to do what's being asked, but seems to lack the drive, intelligence, and commitment to use it. Worse, there's been shining examples on the team of hard workers that should inspire him to be better and work harder since he arrived. It doesn't seem to. He's a coaches nightmare. The coach can see the tools there, but the player doesn't use them. 

[Baggins]

50 minutes ago, Moose Nuckle said:

The team spent 90% of the series in their own zone. IT'S JAKE'S FAULT!

A misdirection response? The thread isn't about being outplayed by a better team, it's about whether Jake's development was mishandled or if it's just Jake himself that's the problem. Jake's commitment and consistency was in question long before the Vegas series.

[alt kilgore]

3 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

I have been very critical of Trams lack of professionalism. 
not just showing up fat but being undisciplined in dealing with the media. 
That being said you are allowed to make mistakes and show that you can learn and grow. Tryamkin ran away so we don’t know if he has matured and grown as a professional. We can demonstrate that year after year Jake has not. 

The only thing Jake and Nikita have in common is they both had/have an attitude problem.  But very different kinds.

 

Jake was taken 6th overall, Nikita, 66th.   With that completely different expectations.

Jake has been given many many opportunities with this team, both playing with elite linemates, and PP time, and little has sunk in.

Nikita only played one season, and IMO, played well, especially considering coming to a new country, new language, new culture. He is at the opposite end of how far each one had to travel and commit to,  from their home towns, and country.

 

Jake's attitude problem is ....I don't know. No one does. there's no excuse for him.  He had instant support from the fans being a local boy. Its hard to accept that his only talent in junior was his size and his skating. And that that helped him coast through juniors to become one of the top rated wingers. That so many hockey writers and GMs were fooled.  They assumed he also must have a high hockey IQ to be that successful in junior.

 

Tryamkin's attitude problem is a paranoia of Western culture and a general paranoia and suspicion of authority instilled by growing up in a country where corruption is the norm. Where you have to fight for your position and always assume someone is trying to screw you over. Maybe he was over arrogant, but personally I liked that he insisted on not going down to Utica, that he had that kind of chutzpah and belief in his own abilities.  And despite being marginalized by Willy D, he did well on the ice. For a big guy he was a great skater, had that same reach as a Myers to check players, and most importantly, had a presence on the back end that intimidated forwards on other teams.

 

But one type of "attitude problem" is more fixable than the other.  Both may have had a maturity issue.  And a professionalism problem. But at the end of the day, assuming both eventually shed their immaturity and realize the opportunity in front of them, only one has the actual burgeoning skills and determination.  I assume Tryamkin still is gunning for an NHL contract, taking only a one year deal in the KHL. Still bummed that JB did not sign him this summer. He's exactly what we need more of. Virtanen is what we do not need more of.

[Baggins]

11 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

Are they...#21 was gifted those minutes and produced next to no offense...then we get 1 player back and boom he goes from 2nd line to press box where he belongs

The panel actually talked about that while Tofolli was out as Green had tried a few options on Bo's wing. They said the reason Eriksson was there was because Bo's line had higher scoring chances for and fewer against with Eriksson on wing than the other options provided. Meaning he was better for the line despite not producing himself. There's really only two things Eriksson is good at these days - his defensive play and going to the net to screen. Sometimes you have the puck go off you and in but often it goes in purely because the goalie can't see it coming. A goal can be the direct result of the screen, but you don't get a point for it. Two goals were scored that way with Petey in front of the net with him not getting a point. Sometimes points don't tell the whole story.

[Comeback_Kings]

Virtanen should be or should have been coached to be a PKer

 

[Baggins]

3 minutes ago, kilgore said:

Jake's attitude problem is ....I don't know. No one does. there's no excuse for him.  He had instant support from the fans being a local boy. Its hard to accept that his only talent in junior was his size and his skating. And that that helped him coast through juniors to become one of the top rated wingers. That so many hockey writers and GMs were fooled.  They assumed he also must have a high hockey IQ to be that successful in junior.

As a prospect he was described as a physical north-south player with good size, speed and scoring touch. The knocks on him was his defensive play and a lack of creativity. I equate that lack of creativity to hockey IQ. From the scouting report it came across me that he used his size and speed to dominate rather than smarts. That certainly doesn't mean he couldn't be successful in the NHL. Speed, size and scoring touch can carry you a long ways in the NHL, even without playmaking talent and creativity, if you have the desire and play smart. It's that last part where Jake seems to fall flat.

[Baggins]

5 minutes ago, Comeback_Kings said:

Virtanen should be or should have been coached to be a PKer

 

Unfortunately coaches like to win.

[DrJockitch]

1 hour ago, kilgore said:

The only thing Jake and Nikita have in common is they both had/have an attitude problem.  But very different kinds.

 

Jake was taken 6th overall, Nikita, 66th.   With that completely different expectations.

Jake has been given many many opportunities with this team, both playing with elite linemates, and PP time, and little has sunk in.

Nikita only played one season, and IMO, played well, especially considering coming to a new country, new language, new culture. He is at the opposite end of how far each one had to travel and commit to,  from their home towns, and country.

 

Jake's attitude problem is ....I don't know. No one does. there's no excuse for him.  He had instant support from the fans being a local boy. Its hard to accept that his only talent in junior was his size and his skating. And that that helped him coast through juniors to become one of the top rated wingers. That so many hockey writers and GMs were fooled.  They assumed he also must have a high hockey IQ to be that successful in junior.

 

Tryamkin's attitude problem is a paranoia of Western culture and a general paranoia and suspicion of authority instilled by growing up in a country where corruption is the norm. Where you have to fight for your position and always assume someone is trying to screw you over. Maybe he was over arrogant, but personally I liked that he insisted on not going down to Utica, that he had that kind of chutzpah and belief in his own abilities.  And despite being marginalized by Willy D, he did well on the ice. For a big guy he was a great skater, had that same reach as a Myers to check players, and most importantly, had a presence on the back end that intimidated forwards on other teams.

 

But one type of "attitude problem" is more fixable than the other.  Both may have had a maturity issue.  And a professionalism problem. But at the end of the day, assuming both eventually shed their immaturity and realize the opportunity in front of them, only one has the actual burgeoning skills and determination.  I assume Tryamkin still is gunning for an NHL contract, taking only a one year deal in the KHL. Still bummed that JB did not sign him this summer. He's exactly what we need more of. Virtanen is what we do not need more of.

I agree that Tryamkin deserves another shot, my point is that he was very unprofessional when hear but has yet to show this is a pattern.

I think you are way over valuing what he provided when he was here though.  First he needed a roster spot while he played himself into at least minimal shape.

He also just isn't that tough and really was just okay when here.  Now as a rookie okay isn't terrible but I didn't see anything that said this guy is a must have player for this team. 

Maybe he will come back and be a solid bottom pairing guy and that would be a great return on our investment.

[Hairy Kneel]

Watched Tryamkin play a litte bit Fri morning. 

Only highlight I caught before I had to leave was Tryamkin covering for his defense partner,

'who was getting pyloned' off the LW and Tryamkin skated hard across from his RD position dove on his belly and swung his stick to knock the puck away from the speedy winger and avoided a penalty on the move..

A desperation dive to halt a offensive foray.

High compete level. 

He's putting in the work, and is being coached as primarily a stay at home D

1st unit pk

Edited September 12, 2020 by Hairy Kneel

[RU SERIOUS]

I've stated on numerous occasions over the last two seasons that his days were dwindling here unless he wised up and got his head back into the game instead of floating around like a cork and after this years poor playoff performance by him, I'd say its fairly safe to now say "he's finished as a Canuck".  It's really too bad to admit - but he's born to float and will never get engaged in the game let alone ever make a pass to a fellow team mate.   I would suggest he be packaged up with one of the other bottom six deadwood players and shipped off to some nowhereland like Toronto where he can float forever. 

[canuckleheads fan]

13 hours ago, Baggins said:

The panel actually talked about that while Tofolli was out as Green had tried a few options on Bo's wing. They said the reason Eriksson was there was because Bo's line had higher scoring chances for and fewer against with Eriksson on wing than the other options provided. Meaning he was better for the line despite not producing himself. There's really only two things Eriksson is good at these days - his defensive play and going to the net to screen. Sometimes you have the puck go off you and in but often it goes in purely because the goalie can't see it coming. A goal can be the direct result of the screen, but you don't get a point for it. Two goals were scored that way with Petey in front of the net with him not getting a point. Sometimes points don't tell the whole story.

This is great analysis, it seems like when Loui went to the press box, that was the end of Pearson's offense. That might have been because of better competition, but with Loui on their wing, Bo and Tanner seemed like a much more significant threat. It's almost like knowing that Loui had their defensive backs allowed Bo and Tanner to take more risks, blow the zone more quickly, etc.

Edited September 13, 2020 by canuckleheads fan

[RU SERIOUS]

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

As a prospect he was described as a physical north-south player with good size, speed and scoring touch. The knocks on him was his defensive play and a lack of creativity. I equate that lack of creativity to hockey IQ. From the scouting report it came across me that he used his size and speed to dominate rather than smarts. That certainly doesn't mean he couldn't be successful in the NHL. Speed, size and scoring touch can carry you a long ways in the NHL, even without playmaking talent and creativity, if you have the desire and play smart. It's that last part where Jake seems to fall flat.

Good point - and I agree with the summary he was given which still holds true today, that he he has no creativity, no moves and no playmaking ability.  He's simply a north-south floating- opportunistic shooter.  Plain & simple.  That's why there's no hope for him and its time to Trade him.    His time here is complete and over with!   He will not be back next year!

[alt kilgore]

4 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

I agree that Tryamkin deserves another shot, my point is that he was very unprofessional when hear but has yet to show this is a pattern.

I think you are way over valuing what he provided when he was here though.  First he needed a roster spot while he played himself into at least minimal shape.

He also just isn't that tough and really was just okay when here.  Now as a rookie okay isn't terrible but I didn't see anything that said this guy is a must have player for this team. 

Maybe he will come back and be a solid bottom pairing guy and that would be a great return on our investment.

Yes, I agree that was unprofessional. Or bad advice from his agent.  He was and still is a young man.  And, like Bure, and another Russians, he had a healthy dose of skepticism and caution regarding what this foreign hockey team management and wary of how they might try and screw him over, like they did with Bure.  Willy'D's attitude towards him seemed cantankerous from the beginning. This large non-English speaking Russian was just too much trouble to deal with, let alone encourage for the new coach.

 

I disagree that he isn't all that tough.  Ask Getzlaf. He didn't need to be overly mean.  He could simply steer and ride someone slowly into the boards with nothing the player could do to escape. It was actually kind of funny to watch. A slow motion squish until the player fell down. And really, you don't want a goon, you want someone who knows how to use his size. And IMO he did. And he will only improve.  I see him as a potential top 4.  Even if he is just "average" skill for an NHL defenseman, if you add his size, he is very valuable to a team. But I fear JB has already burned that bridge. 

.

.

Edited September 13, 2020 by kilgore

[Pickly]

2 minutes ago, kilgore said:

Yes, I agree that was unprofessional. Or bad advice from his agent.  He was and still is a young man.  And, like Bure, and another Russians, he had a healthy dose of skepticism and caution regarding what this foreign hockey team management and wary of how they might try and screw him over, like they did with Bure.  Willy'D's attitude towards him seemed cantankerous from the beginning.  Like Nikita, this large non-English speaking Russian was just too much trouble to deal with, let alone encourage for the mew coach.

 

I disagree that he isn't all that tough.  Ask Getzlaf. He didn't need to be overly mean.  He could simply steer and ride someone slowly into the boards with nothing the player could do to escape. It was actually kind of funny to watch. A slow motion squish until the player fell down. And really, you don't want a goon, you want someone who knows how to use his size. And IMO he did. And he will only improve.  I see him as a potential top 4.  Even if he is just "average" skill for an NHL defenseman, if you add his size, he is very valuable to a team. But I fear JB has already burned that bridge. 

Or, Tryamkin burned that bridge himself. He was given a chance to be an NHL player and that’s all that matters. Yeah, Willie D didn’t do his part in giving him more of a critical role on the team but all in all Tryamkins time here in Vancouver has been grossly overrated. He was a nice bottom pairing guy on any decent team who wasn’t overly aggressive considering his size but had a long reach and could take away shooting lanes with his size and reach. People speak of him like he’s the solution to the Canucks defensive woes which I won’t totally argue against because I would welcome him back on this roster but he took the selfish, entitled road back to Russia because he wasn’t handed minutes instead of earning them. 

[alt kilgore]

3 minutes ago, Pickly said:

Or, Tryamkin burned that bridge himself. He was given a chance to be an NHL player and that’s all that matters. Yeah, Willie D didn’t do his part in giving him more of a critical role on the team but all in all Tryamkins time here in Vancouver has been grossly overrated. He was a nice bottom pairing guy on any decent team who wasn’t overly aggressive considering his size but had a long reach and could take away shooting lanes with his size and reach. People speak of him like he’s the solution to the Canucks defensive woes which I won’t totally argue against because I would welcome him back on this roster but he took the selfish, entitled road back to Russia because he wasn’t handed minutes instead of earning them. 

Fair points.

Yeah, Tryamkin helped light the fire on that bridge too. Some fans give Jake years and years leeway to mature. It looks like he's getting to the end of his rope here though now.  Point being we give younger players mulligans all the time in this game, if they have good potential. I believe Nikita has potential. To help our team get one step closer to the Cup.  You are also right in that he is not the solution all by himself. He could be one of the key elements that helps us get there though. Another piece of the puzzle.  I think he at least could be a different version of Myers, a strong skater, uses his reach,  with less offence maybe, but more physicality, more size intimidation. Which we need more of for success in the playoffs.

[iceman64]

On 9/8/2020 at 3:22 PM, BoKnows said:

Virtanen mis-managed his prioritization of hockey and beers.

Yep.. enter.. shotgun Jake 

[iceman64]

1 hour ago, Pickly said:

Or, Tryamkin burned that bridge himself. He was given a chance to be an NHL player and that’s all that matters. Yeah, Willie D didn’t do his part in giving him more of a critical role on the team but all in all Tryamkins time here in Vancouver has been grossly overrated. He was a nice bottom pairing guy on any decent team who wasn’t overly aggressive considering his size but had a long reach and could take away shooting lanes with his size and reach. People speak of him like he’s the solution to the Canucks defensive woes which I won’t totally argue against because I would welcome him back on this roster but he took the selfish, entitled road back to Russia because he wasn’t handed minutes instead of earning them. 

Are you kidding me? First, Willy was a horrible mistake with Tryamkin and I say this in a hindsite manner, the team should have made sure he was as fit as he needed to be before he stepped a skate on the ice and honestly that's on the team not the player first, same with Virtanen, he needs a full-time leash but Jake is naturally.. ermm.. stubborn and that's why TG still hasn't been hard enough on him, hire someone to do that with players in the off season who show identical signs of not being serious enough as a pro should be but it should have already been done and this should not have been or be an issue now because at his entrance he would have been a prime target for head work and that's Jake's last and remaining issue but because of it he never really played like he can in the playoffs where we all thought shotgun Jake will finally have his day and step but... 

 Anyway IF Jake gets one last shot, see him on a one yr show me contract.. TG should have given no quarter to Jake, make him work hard like a mad man and make sure he does it in the off season but this has got to stop with anyone coming in new to the team, only way to have a winning culture in everyone, NO exceptions! This is getting old.. I remember when Larionov came in out of shape so this isn't anything new, trust me.. 

[Pickly]

9 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

Are you kidding me? First, Willy was a horrible mistake with Tryamkin and I say this in a hindsite manner, the team should have made sure he was as fit as he needed to be before he stepped a skate on the ice and honestly that's on the team not the player first, same with Virtanen, he needs a full-time leash but Jake is naturally.. ermm.. stubborn and that's why TG still hasn't been hard enough on him, hire someone to do that with players in the off season who show identical signs of not being serious enough as a pro should be but it should have already been done and this should not have been or be an issue now because at his entrance he would have been a prime target for head work and that's Jake's last and remaining issue but because of it he never really played like he can in the playoffs where we all thought shotgun Jake will finally have his day and step but... 

 Anyway IF Jake gets one last shot, see him on a one yr show me contract.. TG should have given no quarter to Jake, make him work hard like a mad man and make sure he does it in the off season but this has got to stop with anyone coming in new to the team, only way to have a winning culture in everyone, NO exceptions! This is getting old.. I remember when Larionov came in out of shape so this isn't anything new, trust me.. 

Lol Travis has been Jakes coach pretty much his entire professional career and has both been stubborn and forgiving with him. He has given him every opportunity to succeed  and has also fairly punished him along the way. Fact remains Jake is a lazy player who isn’t willing to go the extra mile to become a better hockey player. It’s that simple. Tryamkin openly complained about his time in Vancouver and left on bad terms thus leaving a sour taste in both  parties mouths. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Pickly

[Pickly]

1 hour ago, kilgore said:

Fair points.

Yeah, Tryamkin helped light the fire on that bridge too. Some fans give Jake years and years leeway to mature. It looks like he's getting to the end of his rope here though now.  Point being we give younger players mulligans all the time in this game, if they have good potential. I believe Nikita has potential. To help our team get one step closer to the Cup.  You are also right in that he is not the solution all by himself. He could be one of the key elements that helps us get there though. Another piece of the puzzle.  I think he at least could be a different version of Myers, a strong skater, uses his reach,  with less offence maybe, but more physicality, more size intimidation. Which we need more of for success in the playoffs.

Agreed. However, at this point Tryamkin coming back seems more of a pipe dream than anything. It’s too bad because who knows what could have been. There’s always a chance I guess. 

[kanucks25]

Mismanaged on the ice? I wouldn't say so. He hasn't always been given the best opportunities but his inconsistent play and effort is likely the reason why.

 

Off the ice? Impossible to say.

 

Either way it's a moot point right now. Despite a very rocky first 3 years post-draft, Virtanen has improved every year in the last 3. This season he was on pace for 20+ goals and 40+ points which is solid 3rd line production. His playoff performance was definitely disappointing, but I don't think one bad playoff should label him.

 

On one hand, he just turned 24 so there's no reason why he can't stay on that upward trajectory and build on his game to the point where he becomes a 50-55 point 2nd liner by the time he's about 27. On the other hand, there are major questions regarding his consistency and IQ which will probably limit his potential. 

 

All that said, I think the current circumstances spell the end of Virtanen's time here. His arb case will probably award him more than the Canucks can afford and him not exactly being in the coach's good books makes the decision easier for management. Given our first pick in this upcoming draft is #82, I can see his rights being dealt for a 2nd round pick + something small.