Was Virtanen mismanaged here?

[Maniwaki Canuck]

Craig Button was so right about this guy.  Where did he rank him in that draft:  45, 47?  That's the level he's panned out at.

[Kevin Biestra]

26 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Craig Button was so right about this guy.  Where did he rank him in that draft:  45, 47?  That's the level he's panned out at.

 

Button called that?  I always kind of laughed at the pretentiousness of having a "TSN Director of Scouting" like they were the 32nd NHL team, but maybe the guy is onto something.

[Gurn]

29 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Craig Button was so right about this guy.  Where did he rank him in that draft:  45, 47?  That's the level he's panned out at.

That is a huge exaggeration. 2 guys picked before him have done very little, in not 18 year old Sam Bennet and Michael Dal Colle.

With 7 others from the first round being basically unheard from since the draft.

Then in the second round, lots have never made it, before the 45 pick.

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2014e.html

[Nucker 67]

15 hours ago, shazzam said:

he was definitely brought up to the NHL too early

Tell that to Quinn Hughes

[Gurn]

5 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Tell that to Quinn Hughes

Because those two guys are the same level of player, right? Identical in every way. 

Why not just say that Jake is a disappointment because he has not scored like Mario and Wayne did?

[Nucker 67]

5 minutes ago, gurn said:

Because those two guys are the same level of player, right? Identical in every way. 

Why not just say that Jake is a disappointment because he has not scored like Mario and Wayne did?

Well, to be fair, Jake was taken at #6, Quinn at #7. What up?

 

I'm not buying the "power forwards take longer to develop". What takes longer? Their brains?

[Maniwaki Canuck]

24 minutes ago, gurn said:

That is a huge exaggeration. 2 guys picked before him have done very little, in not 18 year old Sam Bennet and Michael Dal Colle.

With 7 others from the first round being basically unheard from since the draft.

Then in the second round, lots have never made it, before the 45 pick.

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2014e.html

Yeah, that's true:  lots of busts at the upper end of that draft as well as down into the second round.  So in that draft, he is better than 45 but only by virtue of being an NHL regular.  That draft wasn't 1999-bad though:  Montour at 55 and Point at 79 stand out as players ranked even lower than 45 who I'd take over Jake.  But that's how inexact a science drafting is.  Personally, I wanted Ehlers, who has been better than Virtanen, but not a game-breaker either.  I can see why Benning picked him though:  the tools are definitely there.  It takes some kind of special to waste them, and it would be hard to predict that. 

[goalie13]

5 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Well, to be fair, Jake was taken at #6, Quinn at #7. What up?

 

I'm not buying the "power forwards take longer to develop". What takes longer? Their brains?

Their bodies.  It's one thing to be a power forward among kids in junior, but it's a big step to do the same in the NHL against grown men.

 

I think what people are afraid of is Jake finally turning into the player we all hoped he would be, but for somebody else.  But how long do you wait for that to happen?

[Hairy Kneel]

I'm guilty of saying he was built for the playoffs, but I didn't specify which year.

Or which team.

[Nucker 67]

Tuch is a good comparable. He's noticeable, and his speed kills. Jake just doesn't seem to have that same killer mentality. Perhaps the Canucks have been trying to turn him into a player he's just not comfortable being. I think Jake plays more on instinct, rather than structure. And when Jake steps out of his lane, Green comes down on him. I would imagine Jake's confidence isn't great, as a player.

 

I really wish we could've seen Jake in the Top 6 on a consistent basis. I wonder why they haven't given him a spot? Could he pot 25 goals playing with Horvat and Pearson? If so, then why re-sign Toffoli?

[JayDangles]

11 hours ago, ktcy2 said:

Jake is what Jake is, a 20 goal scorer third line winger and no more. He will not be top 6 due to lack of hockey sense but he can be a bottom 6 player. Let’s forget about him being in the top 6. I hope he comes back. 

Ok, 

 

But he isn't suited for bottom 6. He doesn't hit or provide energy, he doesn't kill penalties and the coach can't rely on him for consistency. Also, if arbitration lands him 3mil, then it makes no sense to keep him anymore. I'd rather make room for a 12-15 goal scorer who provides at least some of the above attributes required of a bottom 6 player, and be done with this saga.

[JayDangles]

41 minutes ago, goalie13 said:

Their bodies.  It's one thing to be a power forward among kids in junior, but it's a big step to do the same in the NHL against grown men.

 

I think what people are afraid of is Jake finally turning into the player we all hoped he would be, but for somebody else.  But how long do you wait for that to happen?

Except power forwards typically develop the other way. Players like Jamie Benn, Getzlaf, Perry, Tkatchuk (both) Anders Lee, they all had the physical element to their game before scoring, or as part of their scoring. Jake is the opposite, where he is scoring to a degree, but has no physical element. This type of player doesn't "develop" a physical element later, they either have it or they don't.

 

Jake doesn't have it. His scoring could possibly improve, but his physical nature cannot be taught. Jake is not a power forward any more than Taylor Pyatt, big and fast on paper doesn't mean big and fast on ice.

[Nucker 67]

I have a feeling this may happen:

 

For 5 years Jake has been force fed defensive play development, and when he finally made the team, he was given sporadic time in the bottom 6. Jake's point totals have slightly gone up each year. In the shortened season, he scored 18 goals.

 

Canucks end up trading Virtanen for a 2nd (because his value dropped, Benning didn't hide he was disappointed)

 

Jake goes to another team and is instantly valued for his size and speed and given an opportunity to play in the top 6. His confidence skyrockets. Jake succeeds and scores 25-30 goals a season.

 

Of course, the opposite could also happen, but not giving Virtanen significant time in the Top 6 seems like a waste to me. 

[goalie13]

17 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

Except power forwards typically develop the other way. Players like Jamie Benn, Getzlaf, Perry, Tkatchuk (both) Anders Lee, they all had the physical element to their game before scoring, or as part of their scoring. Jake is the opposite, where he is scoring to a degree, but has no physical element. This type of player doesn't "develop" a physical element later, they either have it or they don't.

 

Jake doesn't have it. His scoring could possibly improve, but his physical nature cannot be taught. Jake is not a power forward any more than Taylor Pyatt, big and fast on paper doesn't mean big and fast on ice.

I agree.  I just think the opinion that power forwards take longer to develop is because kids that dominate in junior sometimes need their bodies to catch up to NHL sized players.

 

I think Jake's whole problem is heart.  He has the tools and the size but chooses not to use them.  It's like he expected this game to be easy.

[thundernuts]

The only mismanagement was drafting him instead of Ehlers.  

 

I know it is easy to look back at drafts, and pick apart different selections.  Overall, Benning has done well with his picks.  Some just don't pan out.  I think Virtanen could manage to develop into a decent 3rd liner, but not much more, and likely, not in Vancouver.  He's had several opportunities, and seems either too immature to take advantage, or, just not good enough.

 

Great speed, good size, decent shot, but unable to pull it all together.  Seems likely that we're looking at a Steve Bernier / Taylor Pyatt type of player.  

[bree2]

38 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Tuch is a good comparable. He's noticeable, and his speed kills. Jake just doesn't seem to have that same killer mentality. Perhaps the Canucks have been trying to turn him into a player he's just not comfortable being. I think Jake plays more on instinct, rather than structure. And when Jake steps out of his lane, Green comes down on him. I would imagine Jake's confidence isn't great, as a player.

 

I really wish we could've seen Jake in the Top 6 on a consistent basis. I wonder why they haven't given him a spot? Could he pot 25 goals playing with Horvat and Pearson? If so, then why re-sign Toffoli?

jake would play well in the top six for a few games, then he would be become invisible, that is why Green would put him back on the third line. Toffoli is a much better player than Jake. how many years do the Canucks have to babysit him? and this is not me hating on Jake!

[Lazurus]

Mismanagement or misconception?

 

Labelled a POWER forward, the label has expectations attached to it, expectations that are hard to meet.

Where as a big player that is powerful is different.

What is the difference between Horvat and Jake?, Okay a few years and he was never expected to be a big hitter, they concentrated on him to be a better center and given some of the best players to play with.

 

Jake was always, "he is not hitting enough", If some management toddy said boo, media said boo then fans believe boo too.

There are off ice issues, nothing to the Kassian level but attitude.

 

Let's put it this way, he is a media distraction for you. What did Pearson do in the playoffs? Paid twice as much, what? There is a list of names of guaranteed contract players that are well below Jake's level of play. Disappear.

 

Jake got sandwiched between too many bad guaranteed contracts, but not a whisper about how much those bad contracts or over paid contracts affected not just the team but one player in particular.

 

Misconception from the beginning, labelled a power forward instead of just a good player that hit.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Lazurus

[c00kies]

Consistency is what separates AHLers from NHLers, and good players from great and so forth.

 

Heck, an amateur can have one insane round of golf that's even on par with the best in the world, but it doesn't mean he could do it for a living.

 

You see it all the time; streaky players that seem to be the best in the league one week, but then disappear again.

 

Laine is an example of this, but he has more streaks (bursts of consistency) than other players that have one or two solid games. and he really spikes during his streaks.

 

Of course there are players that score inconsistently, but do other things well consistently that makes them really good. Think of someone like Kesler, who was winning faceoffs, competing hard, and shutting down other star players. There is value in a lot of skillsets, but consistency is what teams want. It's why our bottom six was able to look good in same games, but ultimately get torched by Vegas, as Vegas as the more consistent group.

 

Virtanen has to become more consistent, but I would suggest he is also still looking for his true identity, so it's hard to be consistent. He should evaluate what type of player he wants to be, work on the skills that get to it, and then stick with it.

[Smashian Kassian]

Agree he wasn't really a PWF. Strength & speed but always played like a scorer.

 

Its a shame it's gotten to this point because when he's on he's exactly what we need more of; speed, size & scoring ability in the bottom 6.  

 

That said, unless he comes cheap I think it's probably time to move on.

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Smashian Kassian

[Fred65]

Virtanen's identity has been established already poor IQ and lazy to boot