Popular Post oldnews Posted March 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2021 1 hour ago, GetFocht said: Jake should have been a blue chip and instead turned into a potato chip. So let's move him, give him a fresh start and replace him with Zack every night. Meh. If a potato chip could handle 12 defensive zone starts (1 ozone) = 7.7% - and come out an even 0 - in a matchup/shutdown role - then I'm ok with that potato chip. Those were Virtanen's (14:40) minutes last game in a shutout vs the Jets (not an easy group to shutdown btw). Some people continue to see that as 'he didn't score' - so it's a 'loss' / he's useless / didn't contribute. But when you have lines that handle those minutes and give up nothing - that is actually a gain / a positive. It not only enables your young top 6 to play minutes more conducive to their success (ie feed them the ozone starts) - but it also takes relative pressure off them to produce when the matchup lines are shutting down the opponent. So - to repeat - Virtanen has the lowest on ice goals on the team at 1.4 on ice goals against per 60. He has the highest on ice sv% of all forwards at .954. He's doing that while getting 37% ozone starts on the season. And these are not 'outlier' outcomes from a small sample this season. He is typically near or at the top in takeaways as well (is 3rd among forwards this season) and hits... If he can regain some of the goal scoring he's produced thus far in his career - 50 goals in 279 games coming into this season = 15 goals per 82 games - and that's again, playing a balance of bottom six type minutes at less than 13 minutes/night.... It's not necessarily a question of Zack vs Jake. I like Virtanen as a fit on either Beagle's line (the Motte Beagle Virtanen combination was very effective - and fun to watch) and I also like him as a fit with Horvat, who likewise likes the transition game (which fits well with his dzone starts)......I'd prefer to move Roussel personally. 1 1 7 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetFocht Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 19 minutes ago, oldnews said: Meh. If a potato chip could handle 12 defensive zone starts (1 ozone) = 7.7% - and come out an even 0 - in a matchup/shutdown role - then I'm ok with that potato chip. Those were Virtanen's (14:40) minutes last game in a shutout vs the Jets (not an easy group to shutdown btw). Some people continue to see that as 'he didn't score' - so it's a 'loss' / he's useless / didn't contribute. But when you have lines that handle those minutes and give up nothing - that is actually a gain / a positive. It not only enables your young top 6 to play minutes more conducive to their success (ie feed them the ozone starts) - but it also takes relative pressure off them to produce when the matchup lines are shutting down the opponent. So - to repeat - Virtanen has the lowest on ice goals on the team at 1.4 on ice goals against per 60. He has the highest on ice sv% of all forwards at .954. He's doing that while getting 37% ozone starts on the season. And these are not 'outlier' outcomes from a small sample this season. He is typically near or at the top in takeaways as well (is 3rd among forwards this season) and hits... If he can regain some of the goal scoring he's produced thus far in his career - 50 goals in 279 games coming into this season = 15 goals per 82 games - and that's again, playing a balance of bottom six type minutes at less than 13 minutes/night.... It's not necessarily a question of Zack vs Jake. I like Virtanen as a fit on either Beagle's line (the Motte Beagle Virtanen combination was very effective - and fun to watch) and I also like him as a fit with Horvat, who likewise likes the transition game (which fits well with his dzone starts)......I'd prefer to move Roussel personally. He does nothing in the defensive zone. He sits on the half wall waiting for the puck, he never gets anything done. If Jake's Corsi etc are so great, ask yourself, would take a team of Jake's or a team of Hoglanders? What other players that are forwards would you take a team of over a team of Jake's? It's a lot. His play doesn't pass the eye test or the stats test. If the numbers you mentioned make him 'special' why is he on the verge of being dealt and not getting more playing time? People's defense of the potato is so strange. Is it because he grew up here? Are these guys his friends on here? He has an amazing skill set, he just will never put it together here. Whether its the coaching, being close to home, friends etc he is way underachieving and it's time to move him. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, GetFocht said: It's a lot. His play doesn't pass the eye test or the stats test. If the numbers you mentioned make him 'special' why is he on the verge of being dealt and not getting more playing time? People's defense of the potato is so strange. Is it because he grew up here? Are these guys his friends on here? He has an amazing skill set, he just will never put it together here. To me, there is a pretty stark difference between looking at numbers and using them to help inform your opinion on a player.... or forming an opinion on a player, and then trying to find some cherry picked numbers to validate your existing bias. It is pretty easy to see which posters use which method. Anyone looking hard enough can find a couple of numbers which make any player look great, and another couple numbers to make them look horrible. That isn’t how they are supposed to be used. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetFocht Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 8 minutes ago, Provost said: To me, there is a pretty stark difference between looking at numbers and using them to help inform your opinion on a player.... or forming an opinion on a player, and then trying to find some cherry picked numbers to validate your existing bias. It is pretty easy to see which posters use which method. Anyone looking hard enough can find a couple of numbers which make any player look great, and another couple numbers to make them look horrible. That isn’t how they are supposed to be used. That's where the eye test and the stats test come in. If Jake takes a 4 second shift and nothing happens and you extrapolate that over 60 minutes he looks like a Selke winner. He's lazy and comfortable. He is gun shy from the physical side and he's a one trick pony. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Kenny Blankenship Posted March 2, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 2, 2021 43 minutes ago, oldnews said: Meh. If a potato chip could handle 12 defensive zone starts (1 ozone) = 7.7% - and come out an even 0 - in a matchup/shutdown role - then I'm ok with that potato chip. Those were Virtanen's (14:40) minutes last game in a shutout vs the Jets (not an easy group to shutdown btw). Some people continue to see that as 'he didn't score' - so it's a 'loss' / he's useless / didn't contribute. But when you have lines that handle those minutes and give up nothing - that is actually a gain / a positive. It not only enables your young top 6 to play minutes more conducive to their success (ie feed them the ozone starts) - but it also takes relative pressure off them to produce when the matchup lines are shutting down the opponent. So - to repeat - Virtanen has the lowest on ice goals on the team at 1.4 on ice goals against per 60. He has the highest on ice sv% of all forwards at .954. He's doing that while getting 37% ozone starts on the season. And these are not 'outlier' outcomes from a small sample this season. He is typically near or at the top in takeaways as well (is 3rd among forwards this season) and hits... If he can regain some of the goal scoring he's produced thus far in his career - 50 goals in 279 games coming into this season = 15 goals per 82 games - and that's again, playing a balance of bottom six type minutes at less than 13 minutes/night.... It's not necessarily a question of Zack vs Jake. I like Virtanen as a fit on either Beagle's line (the Motte Beagle Virtanen combination was very effective - and fun to watch) and I also like him as a fit with Horvat, who likewise likes the transition game (which fits well with his dzone starts)......I'd prefer to move Roussel personally. This post is too reasonable to be on a Virtanen thread. 1 1 2 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 (edited) Dazzle... that is a lot of words to show you still don’t know the difference between a list of players just from North America and a list of players from the whole planet... Still on full tilt and continuing to lie and hurl insults about arguments you lost long after I started ignoring you? I guess you are still sour about being made to look so foolish after weirdly starting to attack me out of the blue? You think repeating your error over and over makes you save face somehow? I don’t have to rebut you, your own words make the argument against your level of understanding. I know you are still mad and frustrated, that is totally understandable. A mod asked you to stop with the nonsense and you promised to. Adding the sentence “I am not engaging with Provost” while repeatedly quoting me, name calling, and engaging with me doesn’t actually mean you aren’t engaging with me. :D On 3/1/2021 at 1:26 PM, kilgore said: A heck of a lot of words of a very simple argument....Is being rated #6 for NA skaters, different than being rated #6 of available talent from the whole planet overall, (including goalies)? Seems you took a heck of a long time to agree to that. 1 hour ago, Dazzle said: Someone here is talking about logic, but this is the same person who disputes evidence contrary to his position as "half a draft list". Corey Pronman (ESPN): 11 International Scouting Services: 7 Future Considerations: 10 Central Scouting – North American Skaters: 6 Craig Button (TSN): 43 Hockey Prospect: 18 Bob McKenzie (TSN): 8 This is just proof that some posters' "logic" is flat out dishonest. Constantly shifting argument parameters to make your argument fit is why it's dishonest. Edited March 3, 2021 by Provost 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetFocht Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, Provost said: Dazzle... that is a lot of words to show you still don’t know the difference between a list of players just from North America and a list of players from the whole planet... Still on full tilt and continuing to lie and hurl insults about arguments you lost long after I started ignoring you? I guess you are still sour about being made to look so foolish after weirdly starting to attack me out of the blue? You think repeating your error over and over makes you save face somehow? I don’t have to rebut you, your own words make the argument against your level of understanding. :D Button FTW 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, GetFocht said: Button FTW Fire all our scouting staff, hire Button and Pronman... put all the money saved into player development! Many years of history show they beat out our, and other scouting departments. (only half joking) Edited March 3, 2021 by Provost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollumpus Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Provost said: That is about the most circular logic I have encountered and weirdly trying to create some argument where there is none. He said in a redraft Jake is taken at a certain point... not that it was his opinion. We responded to each other quite politely and he clarified it was from his perspective and that it wasn’t far from what the experts said. Fair game... totally accept that. Now you are offended and confused about it? I provided the actual redrafts done that I could find, not picking some that made a predetermined argument. It actually matters that they are well respected sources... that is how you selects sources. Posting a trade rumour from Bob Mackenzie has a different meaning than posting a rumour from “some guy on Twitter”. Why thank you!!! Yes, a redraft, but isn't that still a matter of opinion where the prospect/player would be redrafted? One may look at stats and rate a player (GP, goals, total pts etc) but after that it is an opinion. Bob McKenzie posting a trade rumour is different from Bob McKenzie posting an opinion on where he believes a prospect will be drafted, or redrafted at some future point in time, just like "some guy" on Twitter. When more stats and opinions are formed, the player may rise of fall in a redraft, but one cannot use that as proof that the prospect should not have been chosen in the first place, something which seems to happen around here all too often (good ol' 20/20 hindsight), nor should it be used as an indicator of future success. Am I offended by your position? Nope. Amused perhaps, but not offended. Not sure why you would think that I am offended by someone having a different point of view. Am I confused by your position? Nope, except perhaps confused that you would in the first place put forward such an argument. Anyhoo, it looks like it's a nice day out there. Maybe get in a quick walk before the game. regards, G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollumpus Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 hour ago, oldnews said: Meh. If a potato chip could handle 12 defensive zone starts (1 ozone) = 7.7% - and come out an even 0 - in a matchup/shutdown role - then I'm ok with that potato chip. Those were Virtanen's (14:40) minutes last game in a shutout vs the Jets (not an easy group to shutdown btw). Some people continue to see that as 'he didn't score' - so it's a 'loss' / he's useless / didn't contribute. But when you have lines that handle those minutes and give up nothing - that is actually a gain / a positive. It not only enables your young top 6 to play minutes more conducive to their success (ie feed them the ozone starts) - but it also takes relative pressure off them to produce when the matchup lines are shutting down the opponent. So - to repeat - Virtanen has the lowest on ice goals on the team at 1.4 on ice goals against per 60. He has the highest on ice sv% of all forwards at .954. He's doing that while getting 37% ozone starts on the season. And these are not 'outlier' outcomes from a small sample this season. He is typically near or at the top in takeaways as well (is 3rd among forwards this season) and hits... If he can regain some of the goal scoring he's produced thus far in his career - 50 goals in 279 games coming into this season = 15 goals per 82 games - and that's again, playing a balance of bottom six type minutes at less than 13 minutes/night.... It's not necessarily a question of Zack vs Jake. I like Virtanen as a fit on either Beagle's line (the Motte Beagle Virtanen combination was very effective - and fun to watch) and I also like him as a fit with Horvat, who likewise likes the transition game (which fits well with his dzone starts)......I'd prefer to move Roussel personally. Yeah, but Virtanen is a streaky player in getting points, unlike Pettersson who is... also being kinda' streaky of late. (Let's not talk about that.) regards, G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollumpus Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 2 hours ago, oldnews said: I'm still waiting for a 'source' on the Virtanen to Ottawa in exchange for taking Eriksson - that Benning allegedly rejected.... Don't hold your breath. Or the Virtanen cost the team 30 goals 'metric'.... Cornflakes. Source... on the cornflakes? regards, G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetFocht Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 33 minutes ago, Provost said: Fire all our scouting staff, hire Button and Pronman... put all the money saved into player development! Many years of history show they beat out our, and other scouting departments. (only half joking) I like JB as a scout mostly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetFocht Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 Watching Laine getting traded out of Winterpeg while Canuck fans still defend Virtanens play. Whoa. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, GetFocht said: Watching Laine getting traded out of Winterpeg while Canuck fans still defend Virtanens play. Whoa. It is clearly because Laine wasn’t even a ranked prospect in his draft year as can be shown by the Central Scouting list below for 2016 ... and Virtanen was a 1st rounder. 1st rounders get way more kicks at the can than unheralded prospects. :D Edited March 3, 2021 by Provost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat land fish Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 37 minutes ago, Provost said: It is clearly because Laine wasn’t even a ranked prospect in his draft year as can be shown by the Central Scouting list below for 2016 ... and Virtanen was a 1st rounder. 1st rounders get way more kicks at the can than unheralded prospects. :D Probably find Laine on the European skaters list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 11 minutes ago, flat land fish said: Probably find Laine on the European skaters list No such list exists. I have been informed by an expansive 10 page treatise on the matter by another poster here on the matter, so I am fully versed in this. Central Scouting uses this list only for their draft rankings. The rankings on this list are how they rank players overall. The other lists “if” they exist are just cosmetic. Do not argue or you will be subjected to dozens of posts explaining this in excruciating detail to you. (sorry this is a bit of an “in” joke... but really don’t mention such things like some “European” List!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Provost said: No such list exists. I have been informed by an expansive 10 page treatise on the matter by another poster here on the matter, so I am fully versed in this. Central Scouting uses this list only for their draft rankings. The rankings on this list are how they rank players overall. The other lists “if” they exist are just cosmetic. Do not argue or you will be subjected to dozens of posts explaining this in excruciating detail to you. (sorry this is a bit of an “in” joke... but really don’t mention such things like some “European” List!) Except if you look at literally the top of your image, it says North American skaters. Here's the actual article with it: https://www.tsn.ca/2016-nhl-central-scouting-rankings-na-skaters-goaltenders-1.470328 So Laine's not even going to be on that list as he was playing in Finland. Neither is Matthews as he was playing in Switzerland. Juolevi IS on that list as he was playing in the OHL. flat and fish is 100% correct unless if you're trying to say something else? Now I expect a dozen of posts telling me why I'm wrong please. I'll be sorely disappointed if it doesn't happen. Don't threaten me with a good time. Edited March 3, 2021 by The Lock 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Lock said: Except if you look at literally the top of your image, it says North American skaters. Here's the actual article with it. So Laine's not even going to be on that list as he was playing in Finland. Neither is Matthews as he was playing in Switzerland. flat and fish is 100% correct unless if you're trying to say something else? Yes.. it is an inside joke, a pretty bad one. It was referenced a little earlier in this thread, but carried over from another one. I had posted that Virtanen wasn’t ranked as high as 6th on the draft lists at the time he was picked. Someone triumphantly posted the Central Scouting North American skater list to “Prove” me wrong... and spent several pages calling me names and that I was stupid. All the explaining in the world that you can’t conflate just a NA list with overall draft rankings didn’t seem to make any difference. Edited March 3, 2021 by Provost 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollumpus Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 3 hours ago, GetFocht said: Watching Laine getting traded out of Winterpeg while Canuck fans still defend Virtanens play. Whoa. Not sure how these two players/situations are related or comparable. From your comment, one had asked to be traded from his drafting organization. The other player has not (as yet) asked to be traded or commented on being unhappy about being here, and he is also being criticised regarding his play by a portion of the fanbase, and/or. being supported by another portion of the fanbase. Please provide an explanation. regards, G. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetFocht Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, Gollumpus said: Not sure how these two players/situations are related or comparable. From your comment, one had asked to be traded from his drafting organization. The other player has not (as yet) asked to be traded or commented on being unhappy about being here, and he is also being criticised regarding his play by a portion of the fanbase, and/or. being supported by another portion of the fanbase. Please provide an explanation. regards, G. I don't need to provide anything. Disregard, G 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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