Geopolitical history with an emphasis on the 20 century

[Ilunga]

I was listening to a lecture about some of the most influential people of the 20th century.

Most of the historians involved claimed that Gavrilo Princip the man who assinated the Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand was the most influential person of that century.

The ramifications of that act are still reverberating around the world to this day.

I would love to hear other members of this board opinion on this subject.

 

Going back to my claim that Reinhard Heydrich was one of the most feared men in Europe from the late thirties to his death stem from the fact that he headed up the secret police-security service-SD 1931-42 the Gestapo from 1934-36 

The German security police from 1936-42.

 

These units were classed as intelligence as well as security units.

He had accumulated information on millions of people his fellow Nazi's included.

Knowledge is power and everyone has something they wish to hide.

 

As I have already stated he was the main architect of the holocaust.

He was ruthlessly efficient and some regarded him as a future leader of Germany.

[Dazzle]

50 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

I was listening to a lecture about some of the most influential people of the 20th century.

Most of the historians involved claimed that Gavrilo Princip the man who assinated the Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand was the most influential person of that century.

The ramifications of that act are still reverberating around the world to this day.

I would love to hear other members of this board opinion on this subject.

 

Going back to my claim that Reinhard Heydrich was one of the most feared men in Europe from the late thirties to his death stem from the fact that he headed up the secret police-security service-SD 1931-42 the Gestapo from 1934-36 

The German security police from 1936-42.

 

These units were classed as intelligence as well as security units.

He had accumulated information on millions of people his fellow Nazi's included.

Knowledge is power and everyone has something they wish to hide.

 

As I have already stated he was the main architect of the holocaust.

He was ruthlessly efficient and some regarded him as a future leader of Germany.

Although Gavrilo Princip is viewed a hero in Serbia, and a villain in the former Yugoslav blocs, I think some historians have observed that his murder was a sign of luck, rather than competence. To elaborate, dhe driver for Franz Ferdinand took a wrong turn and happened to stumble near Princip. Princip tried to kill himself, but his pistol malfunctioned. As such, I do not genuinely feel he is deserving of the "most influential person" title. On top of this, no one including himself knew that a war would be started. I think that Princip played a role in WW1, but he was not the cause. Some historians believe the alliance system to be the cause because Serbia requested help from Russia. Germany was an ally of Austria. And France was an enemy of Germany. As for nominating a candidate, is Adolf Hitler not the most influential of that century, at least in terms of Europe? What about Winston Churchill?  Honestly though, I think it is too difficult to name just one person for the century.

Heydrich is an interesting choice. I think any of the scientists who were responsible for the V2 rockets/Manhattan Projects could be candidates as well, considering their technology would later shape future technology/wars, particularly when the scientists would be granted amnesty in exchange for scientific findings. What about those Russian commanders, namely Stanislav Yevgrafovich Petrov (pictured below) who chose not to authorize the use of nuclear attacks? There was another Russian commander as well named Vasily Arkhipov who was also known to have "saved the world". Both of these people I read on Wikipedia though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ImConfused]

Ah, a nice lighthearted nazi/holocaust discussion. Perfect for a quiet Thursday morning.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

I prefer a bottom-up view of history.  Take a look at modern China and obviously Mao Zedong comes to mind, but that rarely if ever captures what really went down in the lives of ordinary people, and in this instance they really have to survive through a lot.  The top-down perspective misses way too much of the good stuff and just isn't realistic for me.  

 

That doesn't necessarily answer your question, so... if not Hitler or Stalin I will say Mao Zedong is the most consequential historical figure from last century.  He was a charismatic man with grand ideas that didn't work and led to a lot of pain and suffering in China.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

4 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Euro-centric narratives... 

 

Consider Hirohito.  Took his empire, which was already strong, and expanded it - his military ran roughshod over much of Asia - then watched it crumble under American pressure, stripped right to the core of only the islands, and he still lived to lead it (even if only in name and not by practice) to what would become the 2nd greatest economy of the world before his death.

 

...and yet historians fixated on the Euro narrative would choose some amateur assassin who lucked into his kill as the "most influential".

The Showa Emperor was more of a rubber stamper throughout his entire reign, probably more so after the war but yeah.  Not a very influential character when it boils down.  He just approved or disapproved of things while the military and the bureaucrats made the all the key decisions.

 

This is the problem that I have with the OP's question.  You cannot look only at any one individual and understand why Japan did the things and went the way they did.  You can apply this same principle to literally any other country.  It's why I'd argue the two lives of a soldier and his wife at home might tell more of a story than some guy at the top.

[Nuxfanabroad]

I'd prefer we put more emphasis on remembering/associating important intellectuals, artists, writers with various nations & eras.

 

Instead we often think of warmongering generals, duplicitous political leaders & opportunistic industrialists/ biz tycoons.

 

For my money, the most important man of the last century was John Lennon. Drew a lot of inspiration from his life.

[Ilunga]

49 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Although Gavrilo Princip is viewed a hero in Serbia, and a villain in the former Yugoslav blocs, I think some historians have observed that his murder was a sign of luck, rather than competence. To elaborate, dhe driver for Franz Ferdinand took a wrong turn and happened to stumble near Princip. Princip tried to kill himself, but his pistol malfunctioned. As such, I do not genuinely feel he is deserving of the "most influential person" title. On top of this, no one including himself knew that a war would be started. I think that Princip played a role in WW1, but he was not the cause. Some historians believe the alliance system to be the cause because Serbia requested help from Russia. Germany was an ally of Austria. And France was an enemy of Germany. As for nominating a candidate, is Adolf Hitler not the most influential of that century, at least in terms of Europe? What about Winston Churchill?  Honestly though, I think it is too difficult to name just one person for the century.

Heydrich is an interesting choice. I think any of the scientists who were responsible for the V2 rockets/Manhattan Projects could be candidates as well, considering their technology would later shape future technology/wars, particularly when the scientists would be granted amnesty in exchange for scientific findings. What about those Russian commanders, namely Stanislav Yevgrafovich Petrov (pictured below) who chose not to authorize the use of nuclear attacks? There was another Russian commander as well named Vasily Arkhipov who was also known to have "saved the world". Both of these people I read on Wikipedia though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know that there was an assination attempt the previous day and Ferdinand was just going home from visiting his injured guards at the hospital when he took a wrong turn and Princip a member of the blackhand just happened to be standing at  the intersection the coach stopped at.

It was more the world wide political ramifications I was talking about.

 

My claim about Heydrich was more about his power in the thirties and early forties in Europe and how feared he was.

 

I am conversant with those Russians and their story and the Norwegian weather rocket.

You make a good point nuclear war screws nearly everyone.

[Ilunga]

32 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

I prefer a bottom-up view of history.  Take a look at modern China and obviously Mao Zedong comes to mind, but that rarely if ever captures what really went down in the lives of ordinary people, and in this instance they really have to survive through a lot.  The top-down perspective misses way too much of the good stuff and just isn't realistic for me.  

 

That doesn't necessarily answer your question, so... if not Hitler or Stalin I will say Mao Zedong is the most consequential historical figure from last century.  He was a charismatic man with grand ideas that didn't work and led to a lot of pain and suffering in China.

I agree the Mao had a lot of influence within China however they were very inward looking under his rule.

Apart from the Korean war his policies had no great effect on the world outside of China.

 

 

I believe Xi Jinping will probably be the most  influential person of the next few decades.

[Ilunga]

42 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Euro-centric narratives... 

 

Consider Hirohito.  Took his empire, which was already strong, and expanded it - his military ran roughshod over much of Asia - then watched it crumble under American pressure, stripped right to the core of only the islands, and he still lived to lead it (even if only in name and not by practice) to what would become the 2nd greatest economy of the world before his death.

 

...and yet historians fixated on the Euro narrative would choose some amateur assassin who lucked into his kill as the "most influential".

Both Germany and Japan lost WW2 however they "won" the peace afterwards.

[Ilunga]

24 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

I'd prefer we put more emphasis on remembering/associating important intellectuals, artists, writers with various nations & eras.

 

Instead we often think of warmongering generals, duplicitous political leaders & opportunistic industrialists/ biz tycoons.

 

For my money, the most important man of the last century was John Lennon. Drew a lot of inspiration from his life.

I too prefer writers,scientists and musicians however apart from the scientist's the others do not shape the world politically as do politicians and Military leaders.

[Nathancanuck]

Mao, Hitler, Stalin

Einstein

Not sure who can be credited for it but the guys who made the internet happen

 

 

First World War would have happened anyway. Most countries wanted/needed war at that time.

The assassination of Franz Ferdinand was just the "official start" of the war.

[bishopshodan]

9 minutes ago, Nathancanuck said:

Mao, Hitler, Stalin

Einstein

Not sure who can be credited for it but the guys who made the internet happen

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

I always think about the scientist working on CERN  regarding the creation of the internet. 

[Boudrias]

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I was listening to a lecture about some of the most influential people of the 20th century.

Most of the historians involved claimed that Gavrilo Princip the man who assinated the Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand was the most influential person of that century.

The ramifications of that act are still reverberating around the world to this day.

I would love to hear other members of this board opinion on this subject.

 

Going back to my claim that Reinhard Heydrich was one of the most feared men in Europe from the late thirties to his death stem from the fact that he headed up the secret police-security service-SD 1931-42 the Gestapo from 1934-36 

The German security police from 1936-42.

 

These units were classed as intelligence as well as security units.

He had accumulated information on millions of people his fellow Nazi's included.

Knowledge is power and everyone has something they wish to hide.

 

As I have already stated he was the main architect of the holocaust.

He was ruthlessly efficient and some regarded him as a future leader of Germany.

Why Princip? He might have pulled the trigger but what was the real cause? Not unlike today pre-WW l was an era capitalizing on the full impact of modern industrialization. Most of modern Europe was competing for resources and markets. Germany, late to the game because of unification, was squeezed out of resources and markets. Their production and technology was leading edge. Was The Kaiser any worse than any of the other royal houses? Rank nationalism was used to manipulate the people and ultimately they were used as cannon fodder.

 

The question I ask is whether Canada and later the USA should have sacrificed their youth to bail out the Euros. If they had not the Euros would have been forced into a negotiated peace and WW ll likely would not have happened. No Hitler, no Heydrich. 

 

How many any times do we read about how much the Americans ‘benefited’ from WW ll as they came out of the war as the #1 power in the world. What is conveniently forgotten is that America was already on that path before WW l. The sacrifice in lives and treasure made by the USA and Canada should never be trivialized. I suggest Canada lost more. The leadership lost to Canada on the fields of Europe should never be forgotten or forgiven. 

[RUPERTKBD]

6 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Although Gavrilo Princip is viewed a hero in Serbia, and a villain in the former Yugoslav blocs, I think some historians have observed that his murder was a sign of luck, rather than competence. To elaborate, dhe driver for Franz Ferdinand took a wrong turn and happened to stumble near Princip. Princip tried to kill himself, but his pistol malfunctioned. As such, I do not genuinely feel he is deserving of the "most influential person" title. On top of this, no one including himself knew that a war would be started. I think that Princip played a role in WW1, but he was not the cause. Some historians believe the alliance system to be the cause because Serbia requested help from Russia. Germany was an ally of Austria. And France was an enemy of Germany. As for nominating a candidate, is Adolf Hitler not the most influential of that century, at least in terms of Europe? What about Winston Churchill?  Honestly though, I think it is too difficult to name just one person for the century.

Heydrich is an interesting choice. I think any of the scientists who were responsible for the V2 rockets/Manhattan Projects could be candidates as well, considering their technology would later shape future technology/wars, particularly when the scientists would be granted amnesty in exchange for scientific findings. What about those Russian commanders, namely Stanislav Yevgrafovich Petrov (pictured below) who chose not to authorize the use of nuclear attacks? There was another Russian commander as well named Vasily Arkhipov who was also known to have "saved the world". Both of these people I read on Wikipedia though.

 

One can be influential without knowing, or intending to be, can they not?

 

I think in the end, it comes down to a matter of opinion. The assassination is seen as the catalyst that started WWI and the reparations demanded of the Germans after the war was a big factor in the rise of Hitler and eventually WWII and the holocaust.

 

That's pretty influential, when viewed in that lens. Still, I think @Ilunga's original post noted that he was considered the most influential of that century, so there's plenty of historical room.

 

I'd say that Temujin was pretty influential, if you want to go back to the 13th century....

[Gurn]

54 minutes ago, Nathancanuck said:

Mao, Hitler, Stalin

Einstein

Not sure who can be credited for it but the guys who made the internet happen

 

 

First World War would have happened anyway. Most countries wanted/needed war at that time.

The assassination of Franz Ferdinand was just the "official start" of the war.

 

43 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

I always think about the scientist working on CERN  regarding the creation of the internet. 

Pfft. Al Gore invented the internet. Pretty sure.

[CBH1926]

8 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I was listening to a lecture about some of the most influential people of the 20th century.

Most of the historians involved claimed that Gavrilo Princip the man who assinated the Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand was the most influential person of that century.

The ramifications of that act are still reverberating around the world to this day.

 

6 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Although Gavrilo Princip is viewed a hero in Serbia, and a villain in the former Yugoslav blocs, I think some historians have observed that his murder was a sign of luck, rather than competence. To elaborate, dhe driver for Franz Ferdinand took a wrong turn and happened to stumble near Princip. Princip tried to kill himself, but his pistol malfunctioned. As such, I do not genuinely feel he is deserving of the "most influential person" title. On top of this, no one including himself knew that a war would be started. I think that Princip played a role in WW1, but he was not the cause. Some historians believe the alliance system to be the cause because Serbia requested help from Russia. Germany was an ally of Austria.

 

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I know that there was an assination attempt the previous day and Ferdinand was just going home from visiting his injured guards at the hospital when he took a wrong turn and Princip a member of the blackhand just happened to be standing at  the intersection the coach stopped at.

Princip was part of Young Bosnia organization that was tied to Black Hand.

The main goal of both organizations was unification of all Serb lands under pan Serbism, south Slavs rebellion against Austrian rule.

Although most members of this group were Serbs there were Croats and Muslims as well that believed in creation of Yugoslavia.

Also In 1878 after Berlin congress Bosnia was given to AH empire to rule which angered Serbia.

 

Military coup and Black hand killed Serbian king Obrenovic and his wife in 1903 and brought to power king Karadzordjevic.

Obrenovic was pro Austrian Hungarian and Karadzordjevic was pro Russian and French.

These groups also tried to kill Franc Joseph who was king of Austrian Hungarian empire, Franc Ferdinand was his nephew.

 

As far as the actual killing, 7 people were present and this was planned ahead of time.

One of the assassins threw a hand grenade but the explosion failed to kill Franc and his wife, the rest of the story is what dazzle posted. Nedeljko Cabrinovic was supposed to be the killer, not Princip

Princip and other Bosnians were pawns in the hands of Russia, Germany, France and Austria.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

6 hours ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Perhaps, but I would contend that just as important as actively being involved in decisions is the subtle display of non-resistance to a decision (particularly of decisions involving distasteful actions and consequences, in the effort to "look good").  It must be said that up until the end of the war (and for a lot of people, even after the war), Hirohito was considered somewhat of a semi-deity.  If the Americans hadn't knocked him down a peg or two, he'd probably still have borne the title of being a descendant of the gods to his death.

 

I agree with you though that sometimes the most prominent person isn't the most influential though.

I think the emperor's role in Shintoism is a bit overstated at times.  Indeed the politicians and generals needed his approval, but the decision-making process was almost completely divorced from Showa.  The same can be said for the Meiji Emperor, who oversaw an even greater transformation of Japan than his grandson, and yet we do not truly know how influential he really was.  The Showa Emperor is actually very comparable to the Queen more than someone with actual political power.

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I agree the Mao had a lot of influence within China however they were very inward looking under his rule.

Apart from the Korean war his policies had no great effect on the world outside of China.

 

 

I believe Xi Jinping will probably be the most  influential person of the next few decades.

I think part of Mao's appeal to the Chinese was that he looked inward more than any of the other republican leaders (Sun Yatsen, Chiang).  But he had a massive impact on revolution in third-world countries.  Remember that Marxism or Leninism called on factory workers, not peasants to overthrow the order and become communist.  He changed and nationalized that theory and made it work in a Chinese setting.  It set the tone for how countries like Korea, Vietnam and Cuba would conduct their own revolutions.

 

Now, the counterpoint to this would be what the peasants actually did and believed in.  Imagine you're a village peasant.  You are trying to get by and put food on the table.  Life completely sucks for you.  You're surrounded by religious groups, parties and bandits all promising you great things, but meanwhile your family is starving and dying.  Here come the communists, driving away your enemies, and taking rice from the rich guy running the village!  They're the only ones actually improving your life!  Maybe if you joined the party, you could even get to have real meat for the first time! You have no idea what Mao says because you can't read, so you'll just say and do whatever the local cadre leader is doing!

 

This is the type of history that gets me going, not the crazed thoughts of some megalomaniac.

[BoKnows]

1 hour ago, Nathancanuck said:

Mao, Hitler, Stalin

Einstein

Not sure who can be credited for it but the guys who made the internet happen

 

 

First World War would have happened anyway. Most countries wanted/needed war at that time.

The assassination of Franz Ferdinand was just the "official start" of the war.

Now that's a trio right there

[RUPERTKBD]

12 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Princip was part of Young Bosnia organization that was tied to Black Hand.

The main goal of both organizations was unification of all Serb lands under pan Serbism, south Slavs rebellion against Austrian rule.

Although most members of this group were Serbs there were Croats and Muslims as well that believed in creation of Yugoslavia.

Also In 1878 after Berlin congress Bosnia was given to AH empire to rule which angered Serbia.

 

Military coup and Black hand killed Serbian king Obrenovic and his wife in 1903 and brought to power king Karadzordjevic.

Obrenovic was pro Austrian Hungarian and Karadzordjevic was pro Russian and French.

These groups also tried to kill Franc Joseph who was king of Austrian Hungarian empire, Franc Ferdinand was his nephew.

 

As far as the actual killing, 7 people were present and this was planned ahead of time.

One of the assassins threw a hand grenade but the explosion failed to kill Franc and his wife, the rest of the story is what dazzle posted. Nedeljko Cabrinovic was supposed to be the killer, not Princip

Princip and other Bosnians were pawns in the hands of Russia, Germany, France and Austria.

It's not easy to keep straight vic king is vic.....

[Nathancanuck]

1 hour ago, bishopshodan said:

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

I always think about the scientist working on CERN  regarding the creation of the internet. 

Yeah I think so too. Also Ray Tomlinson sent the first Email which might be some part of the whole internet invention too.

I think in the end the internet as it is today was created and improved by numerous people and it's probably hard to 

credit 1 person with the invention of the internet. Anyway I would say the internet might be THE biggest thing of the 20th century