[Edited] Bottom 5 Finish Now in Reach!

[Nucker 67]

Had a thought, last game the Canucks looked like the "bubble Canucks", there was effort, gritty play, speed, confidence. They beat down a good CGY team with arguably one of the best goalies in the league (at least that's what TOR keeps telling us now that he's out of VAN), but Markstrom looked shaken. Also, WPG seems to be struggling at times, and I suspect EDM will start to falter. 

 

EDM relies too heavily on McDavid and Draisaitl

CGY will be relying on Marky 

WPG will be relying on Hellebuyck

 

If these players get injured or slow down, those teams are hooped. The Canucks play a team game and don't rely too heavily on one or two particular players.

 

Seeing as there's still 2/3rds of the season left, I feel the Canucks can still challenge for the payoffs if they continue to play with inspiration, like last game.   

 

 

[oldnews]

2 hours ago, Provost said:

imagine a world where he was traded in the offseason to get rid of.... Beagle’s contract.  Our team would look significantly better.

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by oldnews

[oldnews]

3 hours ago, Provost said:

 Beagle that you obsess over as being amazing... don’t let objective reality or your vast personal history of being repeatedly wrong about virtually everything get in your way...

 

 

Jay Beagle's objective reality.

 

24.1% ozone starts

44.6% corsi

56.4% in the faceoff circle

1 goal, 5 points, even 0 (outstanding in the exclusive hard minutes he plays).

3.0 on ice goals for, 2.7 against per 60 at even strength - outstanding goal metrics in the hardest minutes on the team, to go with excellent 'possession' metrics.

9 takeaways, 3 giveaways

28 hits.

3:35 /game on the penalty kill leads all forwards.

 

Yeah - the team would look "significantly better" without Jay Beagle (patented noob-speak).

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by oldnews

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

 

Jay Beagle.

 

24.1% ozone starts

44.6% corsi

56.4% in the faceoff circle

1 goal, 5 points, even 0 (outstanding in the exclusive hard minutes he plays).

3.0 on ice goals for, 2.7 against per 60 at even strength - outstanding goal metrics in the hardest minutes on the team, to go with excellent 'possession' metrics.

9 takeaways, 3 giveaways

28 hits.

3:35 /game on the penalty kill leads all forwards.

 

Yeah - the team would look "significantly better" without Jay Beagle (complete noob-speak).

Thanks for coming out.

I think I've seen you explain this about once per week since we got Beagle 

 

I just think there are some people that refuse to try to understand what Beagle brings to the team. 

[Honky Cat]

I could get some of the criticism for Jay Beagle last season, not this season though.He's played well

Certainly not a player I would be pointing a finger at, for not pulling his weight.

Players like Beagle and Myers get way too much flack imo.

 

[oldnews]

36 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I think I've seen you explain this about once per week since we got Beagle 

 

I just think there are some people that refuse to try to understand what Beagle brings to the team. 

It's for the people that understand the game - or have some interest in understanding the game.

 

Highlight reel fanboys never understand the value of players like this and probably never will - because they willfully blind themselves to defend their egos, weak takes, and are too busy fanning the 'stars' and obsessing over ignorantly received whipping boys to recognize the role players, the team game.

 

Guys like Beagle who eat extremely high levels of dzone starts (and who are consistently at the bottom of the team in goals against 5 on 5 per 60 - ie the team's best defensive forwards), who generate positive territory, are among the best faceoff guys in the league, and who are the first guys on the ice for a penalty kill... people who believe the team is "significantly better" without them - have a noob's eye view, plain and simple.   Provost is never able to respond to the actual outcomes, so he runs on in predictable one-trick, one-note, substance-free soliloquys for misdirection.  'Er, I've been attacked, ad hominemz' by too much objectivity / too many actual statistics!'

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by oldnews

[AV.]

Beagle's a bum lol, end of story.

 

Idk why people on this forum glorify nothing players like Beagle, Virtanen, Roussel, and Sutter.

[oldnews]

15 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

I could get some of the criticism for Jay Beagle last season, not this season though.He's played well

Certainly not a player I would be pointing a finger at, for not pulling his weight.

Players like Beagle and Myers get way too much flack imo.

 

Beagle last season

23% ozone starts

59.1% in the faceoff circle

2.8 on ice goals against per 60 was 3rd lowest among forwards (Sutter and Virtanen were lower).  In the playoffs he was even better (and a +2 in that context).

3:02 penalty killing/game lead all forwards.

69 hits was 5th among forwards.

42 blocks was 2nd among forwards.

On ice save% was .927 = 2nd to Sutter.

[oldnews]

32 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Beagle's a bum lol, end of story.

 

one liner superstar.  short  twitter story.

 

ironic username is ironic.   AV would never utter such noob speak.

 

no one is 'glorifying' anyone - it's called objective outcomes, context, and a fair shake as opposed to....what you post.  "so and so is a bum"....how incisive.

Edited February 19, 2021 by oldnews

[AV.]

10 minutes ago, oldnews said:

one liner superstar.  short story.

 

ironic username is ironic.   AV would never utter such noob speak.

 

no one is 'glorifying' anyone - it's called objective outcomes, context, and a fair shake as opposed to....what you post.  "so and so is a bum"....how incisive.

Beagle is worth 0.7M - 1.5M to "do" what he "does".  You can cherry pick decontextualized stats all you want, but the eye test and those same tests (when used properly) could pick out way better, cheaper players to have than Beagle.  Off the top of my head, Nick Cousins, Brad Richardson, Tomas Nosek, Barclay Goodrow, Dominik Simon, Joakim Nordstrom, Pierre Engvall, Jason Spezza, Joe Thornton, hell even our own boy, Tyler Motte, all better than Beagle and all making less $$.

 

Can't really blame Beagle though.  Jim offered him and Roussel a set of blank cheques, despite having Brandon "Foundational" Sutter on the books.  They must have been laughing for the whole off-season at how much money they would be stealing from us.

[Nuxfanabroad]

54 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I think I've seen you explain this about once per week since we got Beagle 

 

I just think there are some people that refuse to try to understand what Beagle brings to the team. 

The argument goes circular when people insist Beagle's a dog. It throws a monkey wrench..for how can this be refuted?! :^/

[oldnews]

41 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Beagle is worth 0.7M - 1.5M to "do" what he "does".  You can cherry pick decontextualized stats all you want, but the eye test and those same tests (when used properly) could pick out way better, cheaper players to have than Beagle.  Off the top of my head, Nick Cousins, Brad Richardson, Tomas Nosek, Barclay Goodrow, Dominik Simon, Joakim Nordstrom, Pierre Engvall, Jason Spezza, Joe Thornton, hell even our own boy, Tyler Motte, all better than Beagle and all making less $$.

laughable list of comparables.

 

Nick Cousins hasn't played center since 18/19 - and was a 46.7% faceoff guy.

60% ozone starts in Vegas last year - over 50% 7 of 8 career NHL seasons....has

Killed exactly 0:00 of penalties last year, and 0:02 seconds this year.

no doubt "off the top of your head"...as in speaking through your hat.

 

Tomas Nosek has never played hard minutes - over 50% ozone starts for his entire career

at least he's a secondary penalty killer.

but again, thanks for coming out.

 

 Barclay Goodrow - 48.6% career ozone starts, 49.2% faceoff guy last year, 40.4% this year....

 

Dominik Simon is a winger - who can't make the Lames lineup - and again 56% ozone starts for his career - and again, has never killed an NHL penatly lol.    https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/flames-dominik-simon-often-healthy-scratch/

 

Nordstrom, again, is a winger - the most faceoffs he's ever taken was when he went 48-77 for 38.4%....

 

Engvall is a winger (again) - and a guy getting 60% ozone starts, while killing a heavy 25 seconds of penalties a game.  Yet another great comparable.

 

Spezza and Thornton - you have got to be kidding.  Career 55.3% ozone starts - Spezza has never been anything resembling a shutdown forward - and likewise with Thornton - who is getting 70.6% ozone starts in Toronto, doesn't kill penalties, and has always been a top 6/career 52.6% ozone starts player.

 

Tyler Motte - it should go without saying - is Beagle's wing man.  5 years = 128 faceoffs for 34.4%.

 

That list only evidences that you don't know what you're talking about.  You are literally 1 for 10.

The fact that @Provost believes that is alien material only underlines the noob-goggles.  You guys carry on building your teams off the 'tops of your heads'...."objective reality" be damned! 

 

 

Forget Manny Malhotra - he can be replaced with literally anyone, right!  smh.

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by oldnews

[JM_]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

It's for the people that understand the game - or have some interest in understanding the game.

 

Highlight reel fanboys never understand the value of players like this and probably never will - because they willfully blind themselves to defend their egos, weak takes, and are too busy fanning the 'stars' and obsessing over ignorantly received whipping boys to recognize the role players, the team game.

 

Guys like Beagle who eat extremely high levels of dzone starts (and who are consistently at the bottom of the team in goals against 5 on 5 per 60 - ie the team's best defensive forwards), who generate positive territory, are among the best faceoff guys in the league, and who are the first guys on the ice for a penalty kill... people who believe the team is "significantly better" without them - have a noob's eye view, plain and simple.   Provost is never able to respond to the actual outcomes, so he runs on in predictable one-trick, one-note, substance-free soliloquys for misdirection.  'Er, I've been attacked, ad hominemz' by too much objectivity / too many actual statistics!'

 

Beagle sold me during the WSH playoff run. I get he's "overpaid" (for whatever thats worth during a rebuild) but that too is something that makes sense in context.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing Sutter back at the right price too, mostly for his skill set but to also see the tire fire for Jim re-upping him  if we could get him for ~3 mil or so on a 1 year deal I'd be happy. 

[Provost]

Try to trade Beagle, Roussel, Sutter, or Virtanen... that is all that you need to know about their value around the league.  The sum total of hundreds of years or hockey knowledge by actual experts gives a good sense of objective reality.  Our bottom 6 is universally considered to be amongst the worst in the league... those guys make up most of it.

Pretend to know better than everyone else... but you have zero experience, knowledge, or track record of being right for anyone to believe you over folks that are professionals in this arena.  You are not smarter than they are... this has been proven repeatedly by just going back to your numerous bad takes on things.

None of them garner any significant return, if they are moveable at all without taking equivalent bad money back.  Once they get to the trade deadline of their pending UFA status year, they get some modicum of value because no one cares about their cap hits.

[AV.]

10 minutes ago, oldnews said:

laughable list of comparables.

 

Nick Cousins hasn't played center since 18/19 - and was a 46.7% faceoff guy.

60% ozone starts in Vegas last year - over 50% 7 of 8 career NHL seasons....has

Killed exactly 0:00 of penalties last year, and 0:02 seconds this year.

no doubt "off the top of your head"...as in speaking through your hat.

 

Tomas Nosek has never played hard minutes - over 50% ozone starts for his entire career

at least he's a secondary penalty killer.

but again, thanks for coming out.

 

 Barclay Goodrow - 48.6% career ozone starts, 49.2% faceoff guy last year, 40.4% this year....

 

Dominik Simon is a winger - who can't make the Lames lineup - and again 56% ozone starts for his career - and again, has never killed an NHL penatly lol.    https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/flames-dominik-simon-often-healthy-scratch/

 

Nordstrom, again, is a winger - the most faceoffs he's ever taken was when he went 48-77 for 38.4%....

 

Engvall is a winger (again) - and a guy getting 60% ozone starts, while killing a heavy 25 seconds of penalties a game.  Yet another great comparable.

 

Spezza and Thornton - you have got to be kidding.  Career 55.3% ozone starts - Spezza has never been anything resembling a shutdown forward - and likewise with Thornton - who is getting 70.6% ozone starts in Toronto, doesn't kill penalties, and has always been a top 6/career 52.6% ozone starts player.

 

Tyler Motte - it should go without saying - is Beagle's wing man.  5 years = 128 faceoffs for 34.4%.

 

That list only evidences that you don't know what you're talking about.  You are literally 1 for 10.

The fact that @Provost believes that is alien material only underlines the noob-goggles.  You guys carry on building your teams off the 'tops of your heads'...."objective reality" be damned! 

 

 

 

From a bottom six, and not a center standpoint, those players are all better.  Besides, it's telling and quite funny how you omit Richardson, the guy we had that Jim foolishly walked away from.

 

Beagle isn't good.  In fact, he was redundant given we already had Sutter.  And if you're still head in the clouds about this, ask what does it say about Mr. Foundational if Jim signed his replacement not even a season after his deal kicked in.

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, Provost said:

Try to trade Beagle, Roussel, Sutter, or Virtanen... that is all that you need to know about their value around the league.  The sum total of hundreds of years or hockey knowledge by actual experts gives a good sense of objective reality.  Our bottom 6 is universally considered to be amongst the worst in the league... those guys make up most of it.

um, they were great during last years bubble run. Not sure how you can back this up? 

 

2 minutes ago, Provost said:

None of them garner any significant return, if they are moveable at all without taking equivalent bad money back.  Once they get to the trade deadline of their pending UFA status year, they get some modicum of value because no one cares about their cap hits.

thats a misleading argument. We paid more than market value for them knowingly, to help the younger talent be more competitive. It wasn't a mistake, it was a decision Benning made to give the kids a better playing environment. 

[oldnews]

5 minutes ago, Provost said:

.  The sum total of hundreds of years or hockey knowledge by actual experts gives a good sense of objective reality. 

LOL.

The patented laughable appeal to authority buried in a soliloquy/narrative.

chirp chirp.

.

the 'analytics' are delicious.

Edited February 19, 2021 by oldnews

[oldnews]

On 2/19/2021 at 12:12 PM, Alain Vigneault said:

From a bottom six, and not a center standpoint, those players are all better. 

 

Beagle isn't good.

Again - one-liner superstar.

 

To your credit at least you don't attempt to speak for / enlist all the hockey authorities in the world - you simply don't like Beagle. Unlike the OP, whose only play is to pretend to speak for all the 'experts' (but can't name one).

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by oldnews

[Pickly]

Anyways, to get things back in track here, the Canucks need to focus on one game at a time and if they continue to play like they have the past 5 games I don’t see how they can’t catch Calgary or Edmonton. A lot has to go right but I think this team is starting to gel and it’s been said before it’s better to have your lumps early on and find your stride a little later on and gather some momentum down the stretch. Condensed schedule or not I didn’t hear the fat lady sing. 

[Provost]

17 minutes ago, oldnews said:

LOL.

The patented laughable appeal to authority buried in a soliloquy/narrative.

chirp chirp.

.

the 'analytics' are delicious.

Yes... there is a reason they are an authority and you aren't and why people should listen to them and not you.

You are sitting in your basement rage posting in sad frustration and getting salty for being wrong all the time.... and they are getting paid millions of dollars for their expertise and experience.

... yet it hasn't ever occurred to you that they are right at you are wrong, even when history shows that they are repeatedly right and you are wrong.  That is literally everything anyone needs to know about you... flat earther/anti-vaxxer logic... no need to do the work to become an expert, you just need to be able to yell your ignorance louder to feel it is worth more than earned knowledge.

I only have to be smart enough to listen to the marketplace and come to informed conclusions.  You have to be a special level of genius to determine that you are solely qualified to reject all of that (again, flying in the fact of that fact that tactic has repeatedly failed you) based on your complete lack of objective authority in the matter.

I genuinely hope the team can turn things around and go on a big run and will be cheering my ass off.  I am also just realistic and the objective math says we are much less likely to make the playoffs than we are to sneak in.

If anyone has dice in their house... take one of them, guess a number and your chances of it coming up that number are almost exactly what our chances of making it into the playoffs this season.  About 1 in 6 right now.  If enough people roll that die, some of them are going to guess the right number... but 5 out of 6 will be wrong.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Provost