Laying down on the Job. Myers reverting to his Buffalo +- days

[Gawdzukes]

dumb

[Primal Optimist]

35 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

Each post you have made so far has been disproven, or shown to just be a silly opinion because you seem need a whipping boy.  
You chose wrong.  
Myer has been our best dman this year, and it’s not even really close.  

*All stats from NHL.com stat machine, limited to JUST Canucks Dmen for the current season, this morning.

Tyler Myers:

Hits per 60minutes; Myers is 6th

Blocked Shots per 60: Myers is 7th

 

Give aways 3rd

Take aways 4th

 

Penalty Minutes; 1st by a mile. 37 with runner up notching 11 less minutes. 

The only Dman with a match penalty thus far. 1 major and 11 minors in 24 games.

 

6th in shot attempt percentage

7th in unblocked shot attempt percentage

5th in 'on ice goals for' percentage

6th in individual shot attempts per 60 minutes

7th 5v5 on ice shooting percentage

 

0 PP goals

1 PP secondary assist

5 PP shots from Myers in 21.42 minutes of PP time (3rd highest on team)

 

1 short handed goal (83 minutes short handed TOI) **Thrilled to see it, but an outlier stat for judging Dmen on. 

1 short handed assist (83 minutes short handed TOI)

 

6th in on ice even strength goal differential among all Dmen in Vancouver

 

Summary as I see it; the only thing that Myers is in the top half of our Dmen rankings in is:

giving the puck away he is in the top half. o.O

not scoring on PP shots, he is in the top half. O.0

earning a million dollars per 13 inches of height: top half. 0.o

 

But yes, I can see where some of you think he is the best dman on the club. Surely you have your reasons beyond this thread sucks and I am an idiot. LOL

Edited February 27, 2021 by Primal Optimist

[D.B Cooper]

19 minutes ago, Primal Optimist said:

*All stats from NHL.com stat machine, limited to JUST Canucks Dmen for the current season, this morning.

Tyler Myers:

Hits per 60minutes; Myers is 6th

Blocked Shots per 60: Myers is 7th

 

Give aways 3rd

Take aways 4th

 

Penalty Minutes; 1st by a mile. 37 with runner up notching 11 less minutes. 

The only Dman with a match penalty thus far. 1 major and 11 minors in 24 games.

 

6th in shot attempt percentage

7th in unblocked shot attempt percentage

5th in 'on ice goals for' percentage

6th in individual shot attempts per 60 minutes

7th 5v5 on ice shooting percentage

 

0 PP goals

1 PP secondary assist

5 PP shots from Myers in 21.42 minutes of PP time (3rd highest on team)

 

1 short handed goal (83 minutes short handed TOI) **Thrilled to see it, but an outlier stat for judging Dmen on. 

1 short handed assist (83 minutes short handed TOI)

 

6th in on ice even strength goal differential among all Dmen in Vancouver

 

Summary as I see it; the only thing that Myers is in the top half of our Dmen rankings in is giving the puck away he is in the top half. o.O

But yes, I can see where some of you think he is the best dman on the club. Surely you have your reasons beyond this thread sucks and I am an idiot. LOL

5th on the team in assists (not Dmen.  Whole team)

6th on the team in points. 
Only a -1.  Good for being a Canuck this year. 
2nd for dmen shots on goal

2nd for dmen Hits

3rd in blocked shots (only 1 block behind #2)

This is ridiculous.   Why am I even having this argument.  
This post truly is garbage.  
Myers has NOT been close to our biggest issue on the d line.  
Have you noticed seen Hughes just completely give up on our end a dozen times this year?

Did you not see how Edler has lost 2-3 steps this year?

What about our sub par goaltending?

Or the full out scrambling our forwards have been doing?

What about the countless massive giveaways by EVERY player on the team this year?

 

Up until a week or so ago, this team was a no effort disaster.     They didn’t know what to do, where to go, or care to even try.   
 

Their give an F meter was the biggest problem. 

Not Myers. 
 

Now they seem to be putting it back together.....kinda......

 

Im not trying to say Myers is amazing because he isn’t. 
He kinda sucks, but so does the majority of our team.

 

[Primal Optimist]

24 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

2nd for dmen Hits

3rd in blocked shots (only 1 block behind #2)

 

Im not trying to say Myers is amazing because he isn’t. 
He kinda sucks

WHen you adjust for time on the ice, Myers is 6th for hits among Dmen and 7th for blocks, so really, no he isn't 2nd and 3rd respectively, he is just sucking up more ice than the other Dmen for, not too sure for why actually, that is the core of my argument to bench him for a bit. 

 

Thank you. I am glad we can find this common ground. 

WOuld you agree that suck/contract, maybe the 6million dollar myers might top out our Dmen suckage per dollar spent? Or rather dollar spent per suckage?

 

I am not arguing about the team as a whole or about hughes having a sophomore slump year, but comparing the 31 year old 6m dman to the 21 year old 900k dman is a bit odd, don't you think? Hughes is rising to his natural level of NHL calibre Dman still, his ceiling is all in front of him. 

Myers ceilling is all behind him and if he kinda sucks at 31, imagine how he will do at 32, 33 and 34 when his deal is in its last year. 

 

The more I listen to replies and the more I look at the numbers, the more I wanna actually trade him while he still has one foot in the not sucking column. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Primal Optimist

[D.B Cooper]

57 minutes ago, Primal Optimist said:

WHen you adjust for time on the ice, Myers is 6th for hits among Dmen and 7th for blocks, so really, no he isn't 2nd and 3rd respectively, he is just sucking up more ice than the other Dmen for, not too sure for why actually, that is the core of my argument to bench him for a bit. 

 

Thank you. I am glad we can find this common ground. 

WOuld you agree that suck/contract, maybe the 6million dollar myers might top out our Dmen suckage per dollar spent? Or rather dollar spent per suckage?

 

I am not arguing about the team as a whole or about hughes having a sophomore slump year, but comparing the 31 year old 6m dman to the 21 year old 900k dman is a bit odd, don't you think? Hughes is rising to his natural level of NHL calibre Dman still, his ceiling is all in front of him. 

Myers ceilling is all behind him and if he kinda sucks at 31, imagine how he will do at 32, 33 and 34 when his deal is in its last year. 

 

The more I listen to replies and the more I look at the numbers, the more I wanna actually trade him while he still has one foot in the not sucking column. 

So when you alter the actual numbers to fit what you are saying..... sure.   But actually. No.  
I provide actual numbers.  
 

I know you aren’t arguing about Hughes or blah blah blah.  
That’s because you are ignoring reality and other important factors to have a case to complain about Myers.  
 

Again, this is dumb.  

[JM_]

59 minutes ago, Primal Optimist said:

WHen you adjust for time on the ice, Myers is 6th for hits among Dmen and 7th for blocks, so really, no he isn't 2nd and 3rd respectively, he is just sucking up more ice than the other Dmen for, not too sure for why actually, that is the core of my argument to bench him for a bit. 

 

Thank you. I am glad we can find this common ground. 

WOuld you agree that suck/contract, maybe the 6million dollar myers might top out our Dmen suckage per dollar spent? Or rather dollar spent per suckage?

 

I am not arguing about the team as a whole or about hughes having a sophomore slump year, but comparing the 31 year old 6m dman to the 21 year old 900k dman is a bit odd, don't you think? Hughes is rising to his natural level of NHL calibre Dman still, his ceiling is all in front of him. 

Myers ceilling is all behind him and if he kinda sucks at 31, imagine how he will do at 32, 33 and 34 when his deal is in its last year. 

 

The more I listen to replies and the more I look at the numbers, the more I wanna actually trade him while he still has one foot in the not sucking column. 

So you see that he takes the hard minutes, adds a physical presence, but you're disappointed that he doesn't' score more.

 

Basically you're upset he's not Hedman. 

[Primal Optimist]

24 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

So you see that he takes the hard minutes, adds a physical presence, but you're disappointed that he doesn't' score more.

 

Basically you're upset he's not Hedman. 

I just can't understand why folks can't say or admit or see that while yes he has the most minutes, he is doing really not much with them. 

 

My whole argument is that we should give those minutes to someone else for a short window and see how they do. 

 

I am not blind to what everyone is saying in response to my OP, however I can't get past how the rebuttal seems to be attacking me personally OR pointing out he gets all the games and the most minutes per game. That is what I am exactly also saying: time to try someone else getting all the games and the most minutes per game because thus far, with Myers leading the D charge, our D sucks. I think you all made my case for me, so thank you for that. 

[Primal Optimist]

28 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

So when you alter the actual numbers to fit what you are saying..... sure.   But actually. No.  
I provide actual numbers.  

I got zero goals in 1 minute but you got 1 goal in 1000 minutes.

You are clearly the better goal scorer, by your logic.

[oldnews]

22 hours ago, Primal Optimist said:

You know me. I rarely pick out a Canucks player to pick on but ONE thing has really stood out to me the last month and a bit. 

 

Tyler Myers is not a very skilled Defensemen. He can wrack up the apples, but he can't keep the biscuit out of OUR basket. I will be brief though and listen to what you all have to say about it.

 

In Buffalo, after his rookie and followup year, Myers experienced four years of defensive liability as shown in his +-.

2012-13: five total points while not on the power play and ended the year -8 (13 even strength goals against to his clubs 5 while he was on the ice in just 39 games)

2013-14: MINUS 26!! 13 even strength points for him and finished -26, or 33 goals against at even strength to 13 for the nucks with him on the ice.

2014-15: Buffalo, 9 even strength points for Myers traded when +- was minus15, or "24 goals against vs 9 for with Myers on the ice".

 

Then we hit a stretch in WPG where he must have been protected as he managed all 4.5 years there in the positive side of the +-, with his 'best' year notching 17 of 36 points on the power play!! And yet with his best productive year of his career he was only +9 at even strength.

 

Then the Canucks

Last season: 7 PP points 14 even str points and finished -7 (yup both of the canuck seasons are minus seasons for Myers.) 21 goals against and 14 goals for with myers on the ice at evens

This season: 10 even strength points and -1 thus far in 24 games, but my evidence this year is more anecdotal: for instance last night on the PK he chose to lay down for several seconds and seemed like an eternity that he lay on his side on purpose not moving while the opponents passed a few times and quickly scored. 37 penalty minutes in 24 games too, which needs to be mentioned: over one and a half minutes a game he is NOT defending or attacking but sitting in the sin bin!!! Just noticed his take away to give away this year is horrendous as well. 6 takeaways and 19 giveaways in 24 games ... i shouldn't be shocked because that stat has always been bad for him, but last year was his only year of being roughly equal in giveaway to takeaway ratios.

 

 

You're a beauty Primal - I don't want to leave a grandpa homer without elaborating a bit - without going too much into it,  I think you're reading too much negativity into small indicators (ie an incident where he sprawled to block the passing lanes). 

You do realize that Maria was a positive 'problem'?

 

First plus/minus out of context is meaningless - and -1 this season, with under 50% ozone starts, playing 22 minutes a game, with revolving partners (and sometimes rookie/sophomore partners) = is to be expected (actually, you might expect a worse plus/minus than that on a struggling team).

 

Second - 16 of those 37 penalty minutes came in one game - and granted this is merely the 'eye test' - but I'd guess that half of those penalty minutes are "too big a man" penalties that were borderline ludicrous calls.  2 of those penalty minutes were the best two minutes any Canuck has spent in the box this season - a straight up shiver to Tketchup that is/was entirely necessary.

 

His production is actually pretty good - 11 pts in 24 games is a 38 pts per 82 game season.  Last season he played a lot of matchup/shutdown with primarily Edler, and Fantenburg.  This season he's been playing with Juolevi, Schmidt and Hughes - so we might 'expect' an uptick in his production.  He also leads the regular blueliners in on ice goals for per 60 at es this season (and has a positive goal differential (2.6 on ice against at es).  Giveaways - he's 3rd among D - Hughes has 29 (a -20 differential), Schmidt 22,  but those are to be 'expected' again from your D that look to transition/move the puck.   At the same time he's 3rd on the team in blocked shots, he's second among defensemen in penalty killing minutes (so if he can't defend, someone might want to inform a pretty damn informed Green about that).

A lot of people have been quite angry/disappointed with Schmidt and Myers - but I think if you give them a fair shake - they've been quite respectable.

Edited February 27, 2021 by oldnews

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

Myers last year was frustrating to watch imo, he tried to jump into the rush way to often especially when he was ever paired with Hughes, it was ridiculous to watch. This year he's tamed it down a bit, he still jumps up in the rush but not as much, for a big buy guy yes he moves pretty good for his size, but the smaller guys out there which is literally everyone pretty much are just that much faster then him and he's really not that fast tbh.

[Gurn]

I think Primal is not taking into account the quality of competition.

This can have a huge effect on stats and the eye test.

22:19 avg per game.

Says he is doing a lot of things right.

[Primal Optimist]

9 minutes ago, gurn said:

I think Primal is not taking into account the quality of competition.

This can have a huge effect on stats and the eye test.

22:19 avg per game.

Says he is doing a lot of things right.

two back to back good replies from you and oldie..

 

Just wanted to suggest in response to the 22:19 a night saying he is doing something right":

 

I see it the other way around: the Defencemen who is getting the most minutes on the ice with a club that won 8 of 24 games is probably not doing very much right. 

Semantics I guess, but I do like Oldies stats rebuttal, but my look at the stats machine earlier this morning, (scroll up you will see it on this page) tells me that he really isn't doing much good with those minutes. Shouldn't he be higher than 6th out of all our dmen for Hits per 60 minutes? Or higher than 7th for blocks per 60 minutes? All things being relative, obviously he can't take pucks to the head every minute of the game but if he is the one doing the right things he should be in at least the top four of those stats, wouldn't you think? 1 secondary assist PP point in 24 games? That doesn't speak to me to be the best dman in that position either. 6th among our dmen for on ice goal differential as well. 

 

I get it, he is eating a lot of minutes and generally we are losing 3/4 of the games where he eats a lot of minutes. Last i checked you couldn't lose worse than losing in the NHL when it is all said and done you either get 2 points or 1 point or no points in a game. 3/4 of the games where Myers gets the most ice time, we lose. 

I am not at all upset by the great posts that contradict me and add really good thought and points to the discussion, so thank you guys. Much appreciated. 

[oldnews]

4 minutes ago, Primal Optimist said:

two back to back good replies from you and oldie..

 

Just wanted to suggest in response to the 22:19 a night saying he is doing something right":

 

I see it the other way around: the Defencemen who is getting the most minutes on the ice with a club that won 8 of 24 games is probably not doing very much right. 

Semantics I guess, but I do like Oldies stats rebuttal, but my look at the stats machine earlier this morning, (scroll up you will see it on this page) tells me that he really isn't doing much good with those minutes. Shouldn't he be higher than 6th out of all our dmen for Hits per 60 minutes? Or higher than 7th for blocks per 60 minutes? All things being relative, obviously he can't take pucks to the head every minute of the game but if he is the one doing the right things he should be in at least the top four of those stats, wouldn't you think? 1 secondary assist PP point in 24 games? That doesn't speak to me to be the best dman in that position either. 6th among our dmen for on ice goal differential as well. 

 

I get it, he is eating a lot of minutes and generally we are losing 3/4 of the games where he eats a lot of minutes. Last i checked you couldn't lose worse than losing in the NHL when it is all said and done you either get 2 points or 1 point or no points in a game. 3/4 of the games where Myers gets the most ice time, we lose. 

I am not at all upset by the great posts that contradict me and add really good thought and points to the discussion, so thank you guys. Much appreciated. 

But in fairness on that point Primal - the Canucks have 11 or 12 regulars in the lineup every night that are 25 and under.

And in these circumstances - ie relatively no camp/preseason, extremely compacted Covid schedule, exhaustion with little time to practice - it only heightens the challenges of getting consistent performances out of a very young group.  The youth/young core struggling - imo - is understandable to say the least, if not 'expected'.

I'm not sure there's much point in hanging too much on any defenseman - particularly when the most prevalent symptom of their problems imo has been relatively indefensible giveaways in lethal areas that have seemed to wind up in the back of the net virtually every time.   For these reasons I'm not particularly concerned about guys like Myers, Edler or Schmidt - nor am I particularly concerned about the performances of the young players (perhaps Horvat aside, who may have too much weight on his shoulders as captain at this point).    My only real concern is that the young players process it all as growing pains and learning experiences as opposed to getting down on themselves, or too frustrated.  In that sense, again, I'm not that concerned because I think the young group is a very intelligent, generally emotionally mature/intelligent group - with some good veteran dispositions around them (true that Miller may be a bit grumpy/act out somewhat, but maybe not the worst thing to have in the mix - one guy that wears his heart on his sleeve - if anything I think the team might use a bit more rational anger.)

Anyhow, cheers Primal and best of luck in the fantasy game (if you're still engaged).

[Gurn]

1 hour ago, Primal Optimist said:

Shouldn't he be higher than 6th out of all our dmen for Hits per 60 minutes? Or higher than 7th for blocks per 60 minutes? All things being relative,

Playing more against better players can mean getting less hits as the better players are harder to hit, and a lot of times going for hits against better players can lead to odd man rushes.

Less block shots can also be attributed to playing better players who get the shots off quicker, prior to a block being enabled.

 

I'm not a huge advanced stat guy, and frankly wouldn't know where to find a quality of competition table, but I do recognize it is a factor.

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Primal Optimist said:

I just can't understand why folks can't say or admit or see that while yes he has the most minutes, he is doing really not much with them. 

I think because we see an in-game impact maybe you're not? I see him as a valuable #4, provides a strong physical presence, skates really well for a big dude, can chip in ~30pts/regular season, and can be trusted in hard minutes. 

 

2 hours ago, Primal Optimist said:

My whole argument is that we should give those minutes to someone else for a short window and see how they do. 

he's helping to train Juolevi (at least when Green is thinking correctly)

 

2 hours ago, Primal Optimist said:

I am not blind to what everyone is saying in response to my OP, however I can't get past how the rebuttal seems to be attacking me personally OR pointing out he gets all the games and the most minutes per game. That is what I am exactly also saying: time to try someone else getting all the games and the most minutes per game because thus far, with Myers leading the D charge, our D sucks. I think you all made my case for me, so thank you for that. 

Yeah I'm sorry about that, I shouldn't have come down that abruptly 

[linden17]

Is myers perfect? No. Everyone has their flaws. That being said Myers has been one of more productive point getters on the back end. He makes things happen in the offensive Zone. All in all I think he’s having a pretty good year. You take the good with the bad. He’s also been one of the few players who actually has shown emotion during this ridiculous stretch. I think he’s a leader on this team. 

[EddieVedder]

On 2/26/2021 at 12:41 PM, Coconuts said:

I disagree, Myers is a valuable part of our D corp and he's one of our only D who will consistently physically push back. He's had his off games, but so have the rest of our D except maybe Juolevi, and like all those D he'd likely perform better for competent coaching staff in systems that aren't garbage. 

I agree.

Not sure what games ppl are watching.  We are way better with Myers on our team than without.  

[70seven]

The real problem is that we have coaches that want our D to aggressively pinch and jump in on rushes.  He has the green light, and that’s fun for a player.  
 

You can’t pinch on 50/50s.  It’s your primary responsibility to defend as a dman.  That’s how I look at it from a coaching analysis.
 

...However that looks, it’s the coaches responsibility to set blueprint for the players to follow.  You have to work with the hand you’re dealt and adjust. Green an co are doing a poor job adapting.  This group is showing they can’t handle trading chances on ice.  Unfortunately that means you have to change your structure.  We look like the Oilers rebuild right now...  from 8 years ago.
 

I don’t love Myers as a D man, But he’s still a capable NHL player that’s doing more and showing more try than most of the team imo. 

[Devron]

Tired of all the crap this guy gets

[WeneedLumme]

22 hours ago, EddieVedder said:

I agree.

Not sure what games ppl are watching.  We are way better with Myers on our team than without.  

That was abundantly clear in the playoffs and is still clear this year.