[DEBATE] Which RUSSIAN player in their prime are you taking?

[IBatch]

12 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Two back to back 60 goal seasons for me were his best years.  He was still only 23 after those 2 years.  Then the lockout hit and then he blew out his knee.  Ovechkin only topped 58 goals once, Bure did it 4 times, twice several years apart.  Ovechkin has had no significant injuries his entire career, so longevity is definitely on his side.

 

I look at Bure alot like Bobby Orr.  You take away the knee injuries and their careers are totally different.  Orr becomes the greatest player ever with probably no consideration to Gretzky at all and Bure is the greatest Russian ever as he probably hits 60 goals 6 or 7 times and gets 700+ goals.  Ovechkin is like Gretzky.  Neither had any major significant injuries and both have played long enough to set major NHL records.  If Orr plays 17-18 years without a major injury you are looking at maybe 12-13 Norris trophies and several Hart and Art Ross trophies as well.  Probably a couple 150-160 point seasons and maybe even hits 50 goals.  Probably 1900 points as a defenceman and breaks Gordie Howe's record way before Gretzky.

 

I guess the same could be said for Mario Lemieux as well.  Prime Bure when he was 22-23 in my opinion is better than prime Ovechkin.  Unfortunately Bure's prime was cut way too short.  I think even prime Fedorov is ahead of Ovechkin to be honest as well as Tretiak and Kharlamov if you go back to the old days.  Prime Larioniov was a lite Gretzky as well.  Prime Fetisov is probably better than Lidstrom. 

 

I wish these guys had played in the NHL.  If you watch the old Canada Cup games you will see how good these Russian players are.  They were playing against the best Canadian players of all time and were beating them.  Watch the Montreal Red Army game from 1975.  You are talking about Montreal in its prime with like 6-7 Hall of Famers on the team.  And the Red Army team went toe to toe with them and Tretiak and Kharlamov were outshining Dryden and LaFleur.  Too bad neither played in the NHL.  It was a treat to watch those games during the "Cold War" era.  

Lol.   Mario is like Orr.   And even Mario at the end PGP ended below Wayne Gretky's.   He did suffer from a back injury that at the time media and even he was suggesting it might force retirement, and shoulder/neck injuries he played through (WG)..Who's to say Orr's second half wouldn't  be closer to a mere mortal, just like Gretzky's was (still a top star, just not the tippy top guy anymore, Jagr/ Mario, Gretzky).    If Wayne Gretzky retired when Orr did ... well let's just say we should be glad he didn't, but if he did his stats would be even more eye popping then Orrs were ... Coffey career points/stats actually lines up very close to Orr's too..just taking the same years into consideration, so why would Orr's best years not be behind him even if he stayed just like all three of these guys?   

 

To me Ovi is more like Howe/Hull hybrid then anyone else.  A   Big durable wingers who didn't stop getting it done well into his 40's (even had his best year at 40).    Hull only in the NHL... for sure the closest comp of anyone so far.  

Edited August 24, 2021 by IBatch

[IBatch]

Ovi is great for sure.   Fetisov is also great for sure. Would have been fun to see what that guy could have done in his prime in the NHL.   Same goes with Larionov.    Bure, Fedorov maybe Mogilny (his prime was shorter)   all good choices too.   Bure to me played his best seasons in Florida.   Dead puck era ... with very little help.   When your 58ish points ahead of the second highest scorer on your team that says a lot about the team your playing on doesn't it?   And his prime was from his first shift to his last.   Ovi so far is the same too and already far surpassed Bure games played.    Bure is regarded as the fastest skater with the puck ever, faster then McDavid or anyone else...not hard to get why... if you've forgotten just go watch some tape ... and he had to do it with a rodeo and a redline ...

[IBatch]

19 hours ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Slava Fetisov doesn't get near the respect that he deserves, IMO. A top 5 all-time defenceman as far as I'm concerned.

You'd be happy to know THN gives him quite a bit at least.   Not that high but above a lot of guys i'm sure others would think he shouldn't be.    I voted for him lol...Ovi is probably the right move given his prime ... well when did it end exactly?  Last season?  Lol.   The shortened seasons just added some longevity to his career.   I'm sure his body appreciates the time off.    At this point, three more years could be enough to break WG record.   I don't think he has a chance if WG WHA goals are also included, same as Hulls.   Then your looking at 913 or so (Hull) and 943ish or something.   Read a good article that says why aren't all goals included - playoff, international tourneys, WHA goals, KHL goals, elite swedish and czech league goals etc.    Curiously a no name guy (six NHL seasons ) managed 30th overall with over 600 pro goals (AHL not included, considered that league the bar below).   It's dated from 2010 so Ovi isn't on the list.  

 

1. WG 2. Howe  3. Hull   All over 1000 goals.   

 

It made a good argument, goals are goals after all aren't they?   WHA proved their mettle after a court case forced a tournament against the two leagues and they held up just fine.   Also the four teams that came in...well we all know what the Oilers ended up going and some of their WHA players were key ones ... I actually remember watching Howe play and didn't watch hockey much back then ... because it was such a big deal (back in the NHL as a Whaler). 

 

Sure the 80's were fire wagon hockey right until the lockout and NJ cup really.   

 

To me Ovi's a sniper like Hull(s).  Bobby was the more durable guy (his muscles had muscles,  maybe more so then Howe actually) ... 610 and 300 pro goals is outstanding.     Will he be as durable? Definitely just as consistent.   Hull is also considered a top ten all-time fastest skater (do folks know this?) and with a wooden stick was clocked at 120mph...Chara?   Only AL mac could approach that with a wooden stick.   Crazy right?  

 

Think Ovi would be the best of the picks on here.  Nothing wrong with Bure either. But Ovi ... we are witnessing history.   Just hope the next crop of players and in 30 years folks don't say silly things like "back then players weren't in the shape they are now etc (to Ovi and the current players ) ".   That's a big pile of BS. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by IBatch

[Kobayashi Maru]

For me it breaks down to:

 

If you want to win - Datsyuk/Fedorov

If you want to sell tickets/jerseys - Bure/Ovechkin

 

But my favorite is still Mogilny.

 

Lots of legends in that list however.....

[Baratheon]

Sergei Fedorov!  Not QUITE the same offensive force (although still incredible in this area) as Bure and Ovechkin but by far the more complete player.  And if it's his PRIME too?  In 94 Fedorov was second only to Gretzky in points, scored a mere 4 less goals than Bure (tied for Bures best year) while also winning the Selke.  

 

Yes please!

[NewbieCanuckFan]

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I didn't watch that series of course however being interested in history,especially in the history of things I love, I read about that series and that particular player.

That summit series is ice hockey folklore at its finest.

You guys were so lucky to eventually win.

4-3 and a draw ! 

Last 4 games decided by a goal.

 

Dude was a helluva hockey player however my vote goes to Tretiak.

Team Canada clearly underestimated Team Russia.  Didn't help that players back then used training camp just to get into shape (and this tournament was before NHL training camp).  Also, going in without Bobby Orr is like going into a fight with one arm tied behind your back.

 

I mentioned this in the "Tony O" thread, but Tony O doesn't get enough credit.  Team Russia got a bit frustrated with his "unorthodox style".

Edited August 24, 2021 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Gnarcore]

I went with Kharlamov. Based on vs. his peers I think he's the best they've ever had. I have watched the 72 series multiple time. Heart wanted to vote Konstantinov just for the hits! 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Gnarcore

[hammertime]

The best player I would say is Ovie quite possibly the best goal scorer all time of any nationality but 1 dimensional  he's not my pick. 

 

If I'm picking a guy who would cohesively mesh into our team 

 

1 Datsyuk Boy would he and Pete feed of one another.

2 Fedorov Probably the best all round Russian player of all time.

3 Pavel Bure  Speed kills he would just be so deadly in todays game. 

[J-Dizzle]

On 8/24/2021 at 6:11 PM, hammertime said:

The best player I would say is Ovie quite possibly the best goal scorer all time of any nationality but 1 dimensional  he's not my pick. 

 

If I'm picking a guy who would cohesively mesh into our team 

 

1 Datsyuk Boy would he and Pete feed of one another.

2 Fedorov Probably the best all round Russian player of all time.

3 Pavel Bure  Speed kills he would just be so deadly in todays game. 

Ovechkin is FAR from 1 dimensional. He may however not be overly committed to the back check lol. 
 

I voted Bure. I don’t think he’s the greatest of those listed, but I do think his prime (which was unfortunately short) puts him on level with the other players listed…. I give him the bump over the rest because he was a Canuck :D 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 8/24/2021 at 6:11 PM, hammertime said:

The best player I would say is Ovie quite possibly the best goal scorer all time of any nationality but 1 dimensional  he's not my pick. 

 

If I'm picking a guy who would cohesively mesh into our team 

 

1 Datsyuk Boy would he and Pete feed of one another.

2 Fedorov Probably the best all round Russian player of all time.

3 Pavel Bure  Speed kills he would just be so deadly in todays game. 

Already was Canuck property once:

 

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=40051

 

Bieksa introduced him to his knuckles.

[Toyotasfan]

I was a huge Bure fan , but Larionov was the Russian Gretzky. Hands down the best Russian player of all time. Came to the NHL late in his career after being a part of the legendary Russian KLM line ,  played at an elite level into his 40’s , instrumental in Detroit winning the cup. The Canucks were crazy to ever let Bure and Larionov ever part ways.  

[Dumb Nuck]

I know it should be Ovechkin but I voted Bure, he was just so exciting to watch.

[frank einstein]

On 8/23/2021 at 7:11 PM, 4petesake said:

I’m going with Kharlamov, Ovechkin, and Bure.  Just for fun I’ll throw this guy out there. All kidding aside during his prime in CKSA Moscow he was one of the best. Then he he came here and turned into a fat donut. Some guys just can’t handle freedom.

 

 

I was at a game where he scored two goals and was easily the best player on the ice: as good ONCE as he ever was. 

[IBatch]

On 8/23/2021 at 3:33 PM, Coconuts said:

I'd probably have to agree, despite my Ovi fandom.

 

They even tried him at defense briefly, during the late 1990s, Bowman experimented by using Fedorov on defense and pairing him with Larry Murphy. Red Wings Senior Vice-President Jim Devellano said, "I'm convinced if we left him there, he'd have won a Norris Trophy.".

 

 

Federov often played the point too..and after getting tried on defense would occasionally play the position later if they were down a man.    I think that the KLM was close to equal to the Bure Federov Mogilny line .... could you imagine that team with both those lines together?   Despite Krutov's love for hot dogs etc - both Larionov and Makarov had great NHL careers as aging warriors.   Makarov - guy was 33 when he won the calder and the rules changed after that.   Think about that ... how good were BFM at that age?   Over a PPG...late in his career, when in SJ - he used to take the chalk out of his coaches hands when trying to explain what to do on the ice " no no no you do it all wrong " and re-write the plays so he completely stopped coaching him lol  - just gave him a line who he coached on one end of the ice ... that line was still very good right to the day he retired.    If Makarov and Larionov played their entire careers in the NHL, i'm pretty sure that his would be extremely tough to call.   It's also why  the 87 Canada cup is considered the greatest collection of players and best tournament ever played.   That Red Army team was almost unbeatable. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

24 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Federov often played the point too..and after getting tried on defense would occasionally play the position later if they were down a man.    I think that the KLM was close to equal to the Bure Federov Mogilny line .... could you imagine that team with both those lines together?   Despite Krutov's love for hot dogs etc - both Larionov and Makarov had great NHL careers as aging warriors.   Makarov - guy was 33 when he won the calder and the rules changed after that.   Think about that ... how good were BFM at that age?   Over a PPG...late in his career, when in SJ - he used to take the chalk out of his coaches hands when trying to explain what to do on the ice " no no no you do it all wrong " and re-write the plays so he completely stopped coaching him lol  - just gave him a line who he coached on one end of the ice ... that line was still very good right to the day he retired.    If Makarov and Larionov played their entire careers in the NHL, i'm pretty sure that his would be extremely tough to call.   It's also why  the 87 Canada cup is considered the greatest collection of players and best tournament ever played.   That Red Army team was almost unbeatable. 

Krutov was literally a ‘fish out of water’.  Despite his age when he came over, was still a player that lived in a gilded cage for a good chunk of his life.   Brought up in a system where he was always told what to do and when to do it.  He couldn’t handle suddenly ‘all that freedom’.  Plus, unlike Larionov, who though was also brought up the same way, was a lot more “worldly” so there wasn’t that culture shock.  I, imho, think that’s what prevented him from having a good NHL career as his style one would think would fit in perfectly in North America ice rinks.

Edited September 1, 2021 by NewbieCanuckFan

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Krutov was literally a ‘fish out of water’.  Despite his age when he came over, was still a player that lived in a gilded cage for a good chunk of his life.   Brought up in a system where he was always told what to do and when to do it.  He couldn’t handle suddenly ‘all that freedom’.  Plus, unlike Larionov, who though was also brought up the same way, was a lot more “worldly” so there wasn’t that culture shock.  I, imho, think that’s what prevented him from having a good NHL career as his style one would think would fit in perfectly in North America ice rinks.

The fact we ended up with 4 out of the six guys is pretty awesome.   Sure one ended up a dud....but the other 5...just wow.   Hope that Podz can give us a new great Russian to idolize...if he ends up the best of the bunch then watch out (as in QHs, EP, BB, Demko etc).    We might have our very own Brady Tkachuk... just a Russian one lol.   Seems to me, reports of 6'3 3/4 and 220lbs will be interesting.   If he comes in like that at training camp and knocks a bunch of our guys around i won't be mad. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

9 minutes ago, IBatch said:

The fact we ended up with 4 out of the six guys is pretty awesome.   Sure one ended up a dud....but the other 5...just wow.   Hope that Podz can give us a new great Russian to idolize...if he ends up the best of the bunch then watch out (as in QHs, EP, BB, Demko etc).    We might have our very own Brady Tkachuk... just a Russian one lol.   Seems to me, reports of 6'3 3/4 and 220lbs will be interesting.   If he comes in like that at training camp and knocks a bunch of our guys around i won't be mad. 

I think teams nowadays also don't just leave prospects (especially those from other countries) to basically 'fend for themselves' like back in those "early days".  I think Smyl was just told to check-up on Krutov every once in a while after games (or something like that) or Smyl did that on his own (as that was Smyl's style - a leader not just on the ice).  I could be wrong, but I think Larionov said something like Krutov could never get over the feelings of homesickness.

Edited September 1, 2021 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Coconuts]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Federov often played the point too..and after getting tried on defense would occasionally play the position later if they were down a man.    I think that the KLM was close to equal to the Bure Federov Mogilny line .... could you imagine that team with both those lines together?   Despite Krutov's love for hot dogs etc - both Larionov and Makarov had great NHL careers as aging warriors.   Makarov - guy was 33 when he won the calder and the rules changed after that.   Think about that ... how good were BFM at that age?   Over a PPG...late in his career, when in SJ - he used to take the chalk out of his coaches hands when trying to explain what to do on the ice " no no no you do it all wrong " and re-write the plays so he completely stopped coaching him lol  - just gave him a line who he coached on one end of the ice ... that line was still very good right to the day he retired.    If Makarov and Larionov played their entire careers in the NHL, i'm pretty sure that his would be extremely tough to call.   It's also why  the 87 Canada cup is considered the greatest collection of players and best tournament ever played.   That Red Army team was almost unbeatable. 

It's definitely interesting to consider how Red Army players would have fared in the NHL just entering their prime, or even spending their entire careers here. Politics robbed them, and the world, of some incredible hockey.

 

There were the international tourneys and so on, but what could have been.

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

It's definitely interesting to consider how Red Army players would have fared in the NHL just entering their prime, or even spending their entire careers here. Politics robbed them, and the world, of some incredible hockey.

 

There were the international tourneys and so on, but what could have been.

There was one that was for sure the best one in my lifetime.  87 Canada Cup.   Just look at the rosters.   We've never ever had a collection of HHOFers like that play against a team that gave them that much trouble before.   2/3 of the best all-time players together.   Mario has said that he learned what it takes to win during that tournament.   It's a Gretzky passing on the torch moment.   He didn't work nearly as hard in the gym before that.   There were guys Canada past up on to make it work too.   Just to create a 4 line team.    The NHL last tournament was a joke compared to what used to be.   Making young guys work together against "the world" just silly.   For a very very long time, it was Russia vs Canada.   96 changed that.   All the kids that watched the Miracle on Ice were grown up and created another threat to hockey supremacy.   

 

Now Canada will most likely win most Olympics and these sort of things. But the US and the Russians still are threats - as is Sweden.    Was sickened in 96 and again in 98.   But aside from a little bit of a blip in Torin, Canada is back to reigning supreme which is great. 

[Coconuts]

10 minutes ago, IBatch said:

There was one that was for sure the best one in my lifetime.  87 Canada Cup.   Just look at the rosters.   We've never ever had a collection of HHOFers like that play against a team that gave them that much trouble before.   2/3 of the best all-time players together.   Mario has said that he learned what it takes to win during that tournament.   It's a Gretzky passing on the torch moment.   He didn't work nearly as hard in the gym before that.   There were guys Canada past up on to make it work too.   Just to create a 4 line team.    The NHL last tournament was a joke compared to what used to be.   Making young guys work together against "the world" just silly.   For a very very long time, it was Russia vs Canada.   96 changed that.   All the kids that watched the Miracle on Ice were grown up and created another threat to hockey supremacy.   

 

Now Canada will most likely win most Olympics and these sort of things. But the US and the Russians still are threats - as is Sweden.    Was sickened in 96 and again in 98.   But aside from a little bit of a blip in Torin, Canada is back to reigning supreme which is great. 

That would have been before my time, but I'm familiar with the the caliber of players who would have lined up for Canada. Less so with the Russians, but that's probably not surprising. I know the Soviets took their sports, especially hockey, very seriously. To the point where it was basically military style living regarding hockey. 

 

The teams you mentioned are def threats, but yeah, Canada should still the cream. There seem to be more American stars then there used to be, or maybe simply more American NHL players, but Canada still has that top their quality. I enjoy Sweden, and Russian games are always fun. Finland is a dark horse too, though I think they're a bit weaker now.