[GDT/PGT - Preseason] Calgary @ Vancouver Monday, Sept. 27/21 7:00 PM Abbotsford Centre

[stawns]

1 minute ago, Pure961089 said:

How do you know he won’t succeed unless you play him and find out?  He looked good last year and got better with each game 

because I have eyes and watch him play in his own end.  He's all over the place.  You can't play that way in the NHL.  He's even going to struggle defensively in the AHL playing that way.  

 

The NHL isn't a development league and the Casnucks are desperate to make the playoffs..........that's what the AHL is for

[Pure961089]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

because I have eyes and watch him play in his own end.  He's all over the place.  You can't play that way in the NHL.  He's even going to struggle defensively in the AHL playing that way.  

 

The NHL isn't a development league and the Casnucks are desperate to make the playoffs..........that's what the AHL is for

All over the place = defends differently with puck possession.  Tomatoe Tamada 

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, FaninMex said:

I just gave up caring and the whole circular convos about contract

Yeah, same for me. I'm also so tired of being concerned about them playing when they're busy arguing about more spare change than I'll ever see in 50 years of full time work. Play hockey, don't play, I don't care anymore I'm going to be here supporting the Canucks regardless of whether they're on the team or not.

[klw604]

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Edited September 28, 2021 by klw604
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[Gollumpus]

Bored, waiting for the Giants game later today. So, while we're all here chatting about stuff, I have a question or two...

 

Where do you see the floor/ceiling for Juolevi and Rathbone?

 

I see Juolevi's floor being a bottom-4/bottom-6 defensive type of d-man (depending on the other d-men on the team). He won't score many points, to a large part because of his greater d-zone starts and PK responsibilities etc. On the upper side, with some readily obtainable improvements in his game (some have suggested skating), I see Juolevi as a Tanev type of d-man. He will be a top-4 (top pairing?) shut down, defensive d-man with an offensive upside (maybe 30ish pts per season?). I want this type of player on the team.

 

What is Rathbone's floor/ceiling? A possible comparable for a floor player for Rathbone is Troy Stecher. He's mobile, can provide some offense (20 - 30 pts), and can usually be relied upon in his own end of the ice but can also make poor choices (Y/N?). What do folks see as Rathbone's ceiling? Is he going to be another Ekman-Larsson or Hughes? As I've mentioned elsewhere, if his potential ceiling is that high then maybe somebody should be traded (Ekman-Larsson to save on cap, or Hughes for potential cap savings and a big payday in picks/prospects/players).

 

                                                                  regards,  G.

[bbllpp]

OEL, MikeyD, Gadj and Lockwood were the standouts in my mind.  Was disappointed that Gadj didn’t get a look up the lineup or on the PP, he’s had a strong camp.

[Gollumpus]

34 minutes ago, stawns said:

because I have eyes and watch him play in his own end.  He's all over the place.  You can't play that way in the NHL.  He's even going to struggle defensively in the AHL playing that way.  

 

The NHL isn't a development league and the Casnucks are desperate to make the playoffs..........that's what the AHL is for

It's nice to be remembered....

 

 

                           regards,  G.

 

[48MPHSlapShot]

It's kind of amusing how we're all arguing like we have any say in the matter.

 

At the end of the day, the decision is Green's. I trust he'll make the right one.

[Gollumpus]

1 minute ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

It's kind of amusing how we're all arguing like we have any say in the matter.

 

At the end of the day, the decision is Green's. I trust he'll make the right one.

Well, perhaps Benning may have some input.

 

                                    regards,  G.

[Gnarcore]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

it's got nothing to do with being outmuscled.  I actually am not hugley concerned about that, he's a strong kid.  He's all over the place in his own end and completely over commits at the wrong times.  He's got great offensive instincts, but he's up against the best players in the world and to defend against that you need to know where you need to be and have the discipline to stay there.  He's got a lot to learn about defense and the NHL isn't the place to learn that.  

 

I'm hoping he spends a year with Cull and they work hard at shoring up that part of his game and he can come in and make Hughes expendable

Indeed. OJ is reliable/steady while Rathbone has looked flashy in 2 pre season games. One vs an AHL squad. He needs to work on his play in his own end and soak up minutes in the AHL. Especially as he's able to be sent down. 

[stawns]

1 minute ago, Gnarcore said:

Indeed. OJ is reliable/steady while Rathbone has looked flashy in 2 pre season games. One vs an AHL squad. He needs to work on his play in his own end and soak up minutes in the AHL. Especially as he's able to be sent down. 

I think the disconnect is that sending JR to the AHL is seen as a "demotion".  I don't see it that way at all.  The AHL is a developement league where he'll get the practice time and one on one instruction he needs to learn how to be an NHL dman.  I have zero doubts he's a quick study and will develop that part of his game soon enough.  He's just not there right now, imo.

[48MPHSlapShot]

1 minute ago, Gollumpus said:

Well, perhaps Benning may have some input.

 

                                    regards,  G.

Based on what I've seen in the past, I  think Green basically has free reign. If Benning was enforcing his will onto Green I doubt Baertschi would have been sent down, and I doubt Player Name and Virtanen would have seen as much as much press box time as they did.

[Gnarcore]

7 minutes ago, stawns said:

I think the disconnect is that sending JR to the AHL is seen as a "demotion".  I don't see it that way at all.  The AHL is a developement league where he'll get the practice time and one on one instruction he needs to learn how to be an NHL dman.  I have zero doubts he's a quick study and will develop that part of his game soon enough.  He's just not there right now, imo.

Fully!  Playing 20 to 25 mins as a d man in the AHL in all situations is more beneficial for a learning player than 8-10 protected minutes in the NHL. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Gnarcore

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

Fully!  Playing 20to 25 mins as a d man in the AHL in all situations is more beneficial for a learning player than 8-10 protected minutes in the NHL. 

I honestly would have considered sending QH there to start his career and develop his d game.  I can see why they didn't, but it's a weakness, that's for sure

[48MPHSlapShot]

I think one issue that people are having with sending Rathbone down, and maybe it isn't entirely fair, is just how piss poor our development of young players has been at the AHL level. Outside of Demko, who is an anomaly given his position, has anyone successfully developed in our AHL system in recent memory to the point where they became a full time NHL player? 

 

It's difficult not to look at our "development system" and see it as a "land of no return" of sorts.

[runtzguy]

9 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

I think one issue that people are having with sending Rathbone down, and maybe it isn't entirely fair, is just how piss poor our development of young players has been at the AHL level. Outside of Demko, who is an anomaly given his position, has anyone successfully developed in our AHL system in recent memory to the point where they became a full time NHL player? 

 

It's difficult not to look at our "development system" and see it as a "land of no return" of sorts.

I agree. I believe that is due to the fact that the farm team was so far away from the parent team and is managed by people who don't care about player development, let alone the development of Canucks prospects. 

The change to Abbotsford should produce more NHL players considering how our GM, coach, and player development staff can actually go and see their games live compared to on a TV or computer.

[Dazzle]

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

I think one issue that people are having with sending Rathbone down, and maybe it isn't entirely fair, is just how piss poor our development of young players has been at the AHL level. Outside of Demko, who is an anomaly given his position, has anyone successfully developed in our AHL system in recent memory to the point where they became a full time NHL player? 

 

It's difficult not to look at our "development system" and see it as a "land of no return" of sorts.

How exactly is it "piss poor"? The development process has improved leaps and bounds since Benning took over. It takes YEARS for a player to become a full time NHL player. Benning started out with basically nothing, and he had to struggle between 'retooling' and building for the future.

 

Not a single defensive prospect was in our system (not counting Tanev or Hutton, neither of whom were prospects). We had no reliable forwards to step in. Brendan Gaunce was not a good prospect, even if he was a good person.

 

Now look at it today: Rathbone, Woo, Brisebois - these three has seen NHL time, and they LOOK like they can fill in at any point in time. We didn't even have one of these throughout the Gillis tenure.

 

Remind me again why our development system is "piss poor"?

[48MPHSlapShot]

8 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

How exactly is it "piss poor"? The development process has improved leaps and bounds since Benning took over. It takes YEARS for a player to become a full time NHL player. Benning started out with basically nothing, and he had to struggle between 'retooling' and building for the future.

 

Not a single defensive prospect was in our system (not counting Tanev or Hutton, neither of whom were prospects). We had no reliable forwards to step in. Brendan Gaunce was not a good prospect, even if he was a good person.

 

Now look at it today: Rathbone, Woo, Brisebois - these three has seen NHL time, and they LOOK like they can fill in at any point in time. We didn't even have one of these throughout the Gillis tenure.

 

Remind me again why our development system is "piss poor"?

Cite me one full time NHL player that isn't a goaltender that was developed through our AHL system over the last 5 years. Hell, make it 10 years. 

[Dazzle]

15 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Cite me one full time NHL player that isn't a goaltender that was developed through our AHL system over the last 5 years. Hell, make it 10 years. 

10 years will include the Gillis era. This will include the Manitoba Moose/Chicago Wolves. The latter team was a complete black hole for our prospects.
 

Gillis did not do a good job developing prospects. In fact, he did not develop a single player under his tenure, minus Horvat, Hodgson, and Hutton. Two of those players were first rounders that did not see much AHL time (Hodgson had one season), and Hutton was a serviceable bottom 6 defenseman.

 

Now, if we were to get into Benning, he was given next to nothing. So realistically, you have to reset the clock for Benning to develop players. So no, you don't have a point there. We finally have stability with regards to prospect development, and we can see some good development with Woo, Rathbone and Gadjovich.

 

We did not have a single one of these prospects under Gillis, at any point in time. Horvat and Hodgson were very high first round picks. Aside from that, Gillis basically ruined the Canucks prospect pool with his "aggressive" trades and poor drafting.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Dazzle

[48MPHSlapShot]

16 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

10 years will include the Gillis era. This will include the Manitoba Moose/Chicago Wolves. The latter team was a complete black hole for our prospects.
 

Gillis did not do a good job developing prospects. In fact, he did not develop a single player under his tenure, minus Horvat, Hodgson, and Hutton. Two of those players were first rounders that did not see AHL time, and Hutton was a serviceable bottom 6 defenseman.

 

Now, if we were to get into Benning, he was given next to nothing. So realistically, you have to reset the clock for Benning to develop players. So no, you don't have a point there. We finally have stability with regards to prospect development, and we can see some good development with Woo, Rathbone and Gadjovich.

 

We did not have a single one of these prospects under Gillis, at any point in time. Horvat and Hodgson were very high first round picks. Aside from that, Gillis basically ruined the Canucks prospect pool with his "aggressive" trades and poor drafting.

I'm not going to disagree with the state Gillis left our pool and development system, but in terms of actual development we haven't seen anything in terms of success under Benning. Maybe that changes with Juolevi and Gadj knocking on the door, but as of right now we haven't managed to develop a single NHL player that isn't a goaltender. Not one. He's been on the job for 7 years, and it's a big part of the reason why we had to overspend on bottom 6 and lower end Dmen over that time frame. We had nothing serviceable to draw from in our own system. At what point does it become a problem to you?

 

Point is that, because of our complete and total lack of success with developing players that have become successful in the NHL, it's not difficult to see why some folk are skeptical to send a top prospect that looks to have arrived pretty much NHL ready to down to "develop".

Edited September 28, 2021 by 48MPHSlapShot