[Rumour] J.T. Miller Trade/Contract Talks

[stawns]

14 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

This. I was very vocal all along about hating the OEL trade (which is unusual for me because I was a Benning homer for the most part). It was one of the first times I had really felt the wrath of the positive crew around these parts when I spoke out against it. 

 

I'm now a very vocal supporter in trading Miller. But if we hadn't done the OEL trade, I don't think I would be. We would have had plenty of cap opening up, and not hitched our horse to an aging player with a huge contract. When I speak about my perceived inability for the Canucks to manage the cap with Miller getting paid, it's because we already have one of those contracts. If OEL wasn't on the books, and Miller was our only 30+ getting bank, I might feel differently. 

 

I simply just don't think this team is good enough to have two of those contracts on this roster. Which is obviously hard for for me to admit after supporting the path this team was taking for so many years under JB. When you watch the playoffs it becomes abundantly evident we don't have enough talent on this roster to compete with the elite teams. 

but they'd have to have a dman in the lineup to fill that role that OEL plays and the cost would be just as much......plus they got got Garland.  I'm always stunned to hear anyone say that was a terrible move for the Canucks

[Mustard Tiger]

4 minutes ago, RakuRaku said:

Also... let's not forget the Poolman signing... absolutely redundant and wasteful... we could have used both Burroughs and Hunt to just ride out last season...

 

And the Ferland signing... I'm guessing JB got desperate and was rolling the dice on the iffy medical tests/records...

You need to show your willing to improve the roster, Nobody's re-signing or giving any deals when you surround them with AHLers because picks are more important 

[DrJockitch]

51 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

That's the important part.  Look at how pissed Edmonton fans are realizing they signed Nurse too quickly.

He was in the exact same situation as Miller with a year to go but the Oilers signed him to a crazy contract after the end of last season.  Had they waited until this year, they would have saved millions.

Hopefully Miller hedges his risk and signs something fair now rather than waiting a year but then again, he seems the bullish type to me.

Super confident and bets on himself. Maybe thats a good thing.

We will see. As much as another year of flat cap looks like it won’t lead to crazy deals, teams no things are loosening up in 2 years. The flat cap didn’t keep many available d-man from signing for ridiculous money and term last year, doubt it changes this year.

‘There is always a desperate GM trying to save their jobs, just nice it isn’t us this year. 

[wai_lai416]

4 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

This. I was very vocal all along about hating the OEL trade (which is unusual for me because I was a Benning homer for the most part). It was one of the first times I had really felt the wrath of the positive crew around these parts when I spoke out against it. 

 

I'm now a very vocal supporter in trading Miller. But if we hadn't done the OEL trade, I don't think I would be. We would have had plenty of cap opening up, and not hitched our horse to an aging player with a huge contract. When I speak about my perceived inability for the Canucks to manage the cap with Miller getting paid, it's because we already have one of those contracts. If OEL wasn't on the books, and Miller was our only 30+ getting bank, I might feel differently. 

 

I simply just don't think this team is good enough to have two of those contracts on this roster. Which is obviously hard for for me to admit after supporting the path this team was taking for so many years under JB. When you watch the playoffs it becomes abundantly evident we don't have enough talent on this roster to compete with the elite teams. 

Pretty much what I said too. Can’t afford to have OEL on the cap and then signing a Miller to a big cap.. both won’t age well neither will be performing like a 7-8mil player in 3-4 years and we’ll likely be stuck with them for 6-7. 
 

regarding OEL is not overpaid etc etc.. OEL might not be overpaid if he’s on another team. But he’s definitely overpaid on the canucks. If he’s on another team getting top mins top Pp time ya sure he might be worth it. Fact is hes not the top pairing defenseman in Vancouver. He doesn’t get pp1 mins.. he doesn’t get the offensive zone starts. 7.25 is too much for a 2nd pairing defenseman. 
 

there are lots of defenseman in this league in the 2nd pairing role that gets no PP mins and the defensive assignments that have as much if not more points than OEL.. so I don’t buy the well his points total will go up if he gets pp1 min.. so will all the other 2nd pairings in the league that have around the same if not more points than OEL that makes millions less.. 7.25 is way too much of a defenseman that’s paid to play behind Quinn Hughes..  

[Ballisticsports.]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

but they'd have to have a dman in the lineup to fill that role that OEL plays and the cost would be just as much......plus they got got Garland.  I'm always stunned to hear anyone say that was a terrible move for the Canucks

I thought is was at the time, we have paid 5 yrs of bad money, i knew we werent winning a cup with the trade and would  have the trouble we have now to untangle, I was ok riding out one more year, we could always sign Garland (who I like) or anyone (people already with multiple proposals of trading him) 

The timing for that build the way it was done is the reason for the bind we face now of keeping our better players

[grandmaster]

22 minutes ago, stawns said:

but they'd have to have a dman in the lineup to fill that role that OEL plays and the cost would be just as much......plus they got got Garland.  I'm always stunned to hear anyone say that was a terrible move for the Canucks

As much as I did not like JB, this was objectively an excellent trade. OEL proved to still be a 1/2 defenceman and Garland proved to be a good top 6 player at 50 points . 
 

We unloaded 3 cancerous contracts who thrived as “country club” players (still needs some work). The culture of this team is changing. Miller is the lion king and needs to stay on this club to help keep things going in the right direction. 
 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by grandmaster

[MeanSeanBean]

11 minutes ago, stawns said:

but they'd have to have a dman in the lineup to fill that role that OEL plays and the cost would be just as much......plus they got got Garland.  I'm always stunned to hear anyone say that was a terrible move for the Canucks

OEL as it plays out right now is a 2nd pair D. He plays pp2, and plays behind QH. It would not cost the same amount to acquire, or pay another top 4 dman. As early as this year, it's possible that our only real defensive prospect in Rathbone could have been able to step into that role (not saying he's ready, more just pointing out that he now doesn't really have a spot on the team unless we are planning on running 3 offense first lefties on D)

 

Garland was good, but not great. Again, he's not in the position to be playing top minutes nor top pp time. I like him as a player and he makes our team better, as does OEL. 

 

The alternative to this trade was, running with the aging players on our roster and likely having another bad year. Having Guenther in our back pocket, who without a doubt would be this organizations top prospect. Having likely a better first round pick this year (not to mention our 2nd this year to help with our prospect situation). On top of that, we would have plenty of cap space opening up for Miller, Boeser, or targeting cap strapped teams who may need to dump players.

 

That trade was a short sighted move in my eyes, and nothing I have seen or anything anyone has said has been able to change my opinion on that so far. If OEL comes in next year after a full off season of practicing RD to be a top pair D with Quinn that would help. If Garland is traded for better assets, or comes in next year and plays legit top 6 minutes, that would be great. If both those things play out, it's possible my mind could change a little.

 

As of right now though, that was a move to make the team better short term, and while it worked, it didn't work nearly well enough. We still didn't make the playoffs, and moving forward the team is in worse shape cap wise then we would be without the trade. There is a reason why Ruthford time after time says the teams number one priority is trying to create cape space.

[MikeBossy]

I look at the whole Miller thing in several ways:

1. Miller is 30 and a 7 or 8 year contract in my opinion is not a good idea if the AAV is 7 or more (I think he wants $8 mil plus)

2. If you  move on from Miller who do you bring in to replace his 99 pts - does Brock stay and score another 25 more points than last year. Do Petey and Bo have it in them to add another 20 points each? Can Kuzmenko fill some of the void? 

3. If you don't sign Miller do you go after Forsberg? Personally I would rather go this route as he is 3 years younger but he might be the star of the UFA crop and command more than we are willing to pay.

4. Do you have Miller play out the season hope he lights it up again and if we stumble trade him at the deadline or do you trade him before the season starts?

[MeanSeanBean]

10 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

As much as I did not like JB, this was objectively an excellent trade. OEL proved to still be a 1/2 defenceman and Garland proved to be a good top 6 player at 50 points . 
 

We unloaded 3 cancerous contracts who thrived as “country club” players (still needs some work). The culture of this team is changing. Miller is the lion king and needs to stay on this club to help keep things going in the right direction. 
 

 

I know you want to keep Miller, but as it stands right now can we agree that there is a higher chance he's traded then resigned? The lack of cap space is the reason why we won't likely be able to afford him if he's traded. He's obviously an amazing player who makes our team better, it's just cost that's an issue. Without this trade being done, this likely wouldn't be an issue and we could probably keep Miller. Is anything I'm saying out of line, because this all seems entirely logical to me.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Shayster007

[grandmaster]

33 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

I know you want to keep Miller, but as it stands right now can we agree that there is a higher chance he's traded then resigned? The lack of cap space is the reason why we won't likely be able to afford him if he's traded. He's obviously an amazing player who makes our team better, it's just cost that's an issue. Without this trade being done, this likely wouldn't be an issue and we could probably keep Miller. Is anything I'm saying out of line, because this all seems entirely logical to me.

The thing is we don’t have to make a trade or give up assets to get a player like Miller. He is already here and has made it clear he wants to stay (obviously at a reasonable price to both sides). 
 

I realize we have cap issues and hopefully this new management will sort it out by not having to unload our greatest player. I personally give this a 60/40 that Miller stays.

[wai_lai416]

48 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

As much as I did not like JB, this was objectively an excellent trade. OEL proved to still be a 1/2 defenceman and Garland proved to be a good top 6 player at 50 points . 
 

We unloaded 3 cancerous contracts who thrived as “country club” players (still needs some work). The culture of this team is changing. Miller is the lion king and needs to stay on this club to help keep things going in the right direction. 
 

 

Ya a top 1/2 defenseman on another team. He’s not the #1/2 defenseman in Vancouver and he never will be as long as Hughes is in Vancouver or they decide to force one of them to play the right side. As it stands he’s the #3 defenseman on this team. The 2nd pairing defenseman. Garland is fine. OEL is fine as a player but he’s not worth 7.25 on the canucks to be a 2nd pairing defenseman. Regardless of how u look at it he’s the 2nd pairing defenseman in a more defensive role.. most teams around the league have a 2nd pairing in the 5 mid 5s range that plays the same role with similar production. OEL is capable of more production for sure. But he ain’t getting it in Vancouver and that’s the point. He’s overpaid in Vancouver for how he is and will be utilized 

[grandmaster]

Just now, wai_lai416 said:

Ya a top 1/2 defenseman on another team. He’s not the #1/2 defenseman in Vancouver and he never will be as long as Hughes is in Vancouver or they decide to force one of them to play the right side. As it stands he’s the #3 defenseman on this team. The 2nd pairing defenseman. Garland is fine. OEL is fine as a player but he’s not worth 7.25 on the canucks to be a 2nd pairing defenseman. Regardless of how u look at it he’s the 2nd pairing defenseman in a more defensive role.. most teams around the league have a 2nd pairing in the 5 mid 5s range that plays the same role with similar production. OEL is capable of more production for sure. But he ain’t getting it in Vancouver and that’s the point. He’s overpaid in Vancouver for how he is and will be utilized 

You forget how he stepped up when QH was out. As far as overpaid, that’s by roughly 1M or so. It’s negligible.

[wai_lai416]

2 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

You forget how he stepped up when QH was out. As far as overpaid, that’s by roughly 1M or so. It’s negligible.

Lol injury happens to all team.. so we overpaid a player just in case for injuries? I would argue he’s worth barely more than Tanev for his role on this team. Tanev doesn’t play the PP have all the hard defensive role. Scored just as much points. Even 1 mil is not negligible.. 1 mil here 1 mil there 500k here 500k there.. they all add up..

let say we ended up signing boeser at QO.. we end up re signing miller at 8.5 we still have poolman and Dickinson.. oh look all the 1mil are starting to add up.. so no it’s not negligible 

[Provost]

5 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

You forget how he stepped up when QH was out. As far as overpaid, that’s by roughly 1M or so. It’s negligible.

Yes, OEL is not the problem on our defence even remotely.  When Hughes was out you got to see OEL shine.  He also performed at a pretty decent level while being miscast as a shutdown pairing last season because we didn't have any better options.

Get is a true shutdown 3rd pairing and you are going to see the best of OEL when he isn't expected to take the toughest defensive assignments.

[SilentSam]

1 hour ago, grandmaster said:

As much as I did not like JB, this was objectively an excellent trade. OEL proved to still be a 1/2 defenceman and Garland proved to be a good top 6 player at 50 points . 
 

We unloaded 3 cancerous contracts who thrived as “country club” players (still needs some work). The culture of this team is changing. Miller is the lion king and needs to stay on this club to help keep things going in the right direction. 
 

 

we are possibly about to pay too much are for the services of Boeser, Horvat ,  each are probably hoping to get 7+m,

and quite frankly , that 3 year deal of 7.2m for EP40, before reaching RFA has hurt too.

EP40’s earnings to date for 4 years service are 

round a bout 18m.

Before reaching RFA in 2 years he will have made roughly 32m for 6 years service.

Not bad for someone developing.

Yet some find it hard here to justify paying a player his worth, who brings more than just an above average point total, and could be the Catalyst of this teams identity, leaving a impressive for years on the younger generations that come to this team.

 

Sometimes you have to step away from what makes you feel comfortable, to see where the true quality of the product is.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by SilentSam

[mordekai]

3 minutes ago, Provost said:

Yes, OEL is not the problem on our defence even remotely.  When Hughes was out you got to see OEL shine.  He also performed at a pretty decent level while being miscast as a shutdown pairing last season because we didn't have any better options.

Get is a true shutdown 3rd pairing and you are going to see the best of OEL when he isn't expected to take the toughest defensive assignments.

Tampa did fine winning 2 cups with McDonough at almost 7mil and Herdman and Sergeachev all being Lefthanded defencemen. We just need the righty to compliment OEL not OEl to compliment myers

avs just won the cup having one of worse goalie performance in the playoffs this year based on expected goals saved

 

[CanucksJay]

3 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

Pretty much what I said too. Can’t afford to have OEL on the cap and then signing a Miller to a big cap.. both won’t age well neither will be performing like a 7-8mil player in 3-4 years and we’ll likely be stuck with them for 6-7. 
 

regarding OEL is not overpaid etc etc.. OEL might not be overpaid if he’s on another team. But he’s definitely overpaid on the canucks. If he’s on another team getting top mins top Pp time ya sure he might be worth it. Fact is hes not the top pairing defenseman in Vancouver. He doesn’t get pp1 mins.. he doesn’t get the offensive zone starts. 7.25 is too much for a 2nd pairing defenseman. 
 

there are lots of defenseman in this league in the 2nd pairing role that gets no PP mins and the defensive assignments that have as much if not more points than OEL.. so I don’t buy the well his points total will go up if he gets pp1 min.. so will all the other 2nd pairings in the league that have around the same if not more points than OEL that makes millions less.. 7.25 is way too much of a defenseman that’s paid to play behind Quinn Hughes..  

I have a feeling that OEL is not going to drop off the cliff in terms of his play when he gets older.  We usually see that skilled, smooth skating players who use smarts, positioning and stickwork last longer than big physical guys that throw their body around,

 

OEL is not a second pairing d-man.  He is the first pairing that logs all the hard minutes which frees up Hughes.  The reason Hughes isnt on first pairing is that he is not good enough defensively yet.  He will eventually have to play 1D.  Now here is an interesting thought.  Hughes cant move up to play 1D because that would then leave huge holes in the 2nd and 3rd pairings. If JR was to upgrade on guys like Myers, Schenn Poolman, Dermott so that we have a better 2nd pairing, could Hughes and OEL become our new top pair?  I think it could actaully work quite well.

[grandmaster]

5 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

Lol injury happens to all team.. so we overpaid a player just in case for injuries? I would argue he’s worth barely more than Tanev for his role on this team. Tanev doesn’t play the PP have all the hard defensive role. Scored just as much points. Even 1 mil is not negligible.. 1 mil here 1 mil there 500k here 500k there.. they all add up..

let say we ended up signing boeser at QO.. we end up re signing miller at 8.5 we still have poolman and Dickinson.. oh look all the 1mil are starting to add up.. so no it’s not negligible 

So your saying OEL is barely worth more than Tanev? Wow.

[wai_lai416]

12 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

So your saying OEL is barely worth more than Tanev? Wow.

for his role on the team yes. his skill and ability definitely worth more than tanev.. but he's put into a role no different from tanev where all the extra skills and ability are not being utilized.. therefore we are overpaying a player that is over qualified for his role when we could have easily gotten someone significantly cheaper that is exactly for that role.

Edited June 27, 2022 by wai_lai416

[grandmaster]

4 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

for his role on the team yes. his skill and ability definitely worth more than tanev.. but he's put into a role no different from tanev where all the extra skills and ability are not being utilized.. therefore we are overpaying a player that is over qualified for his role when we could have easily gotten someone significantly cheaper that is exactly for that role.

100% disagree.

 

You speak like Tanev was never put in other roles and responsibilities. We’ve watched Tanev very closely over the years to know exactly what he is capable of. Don’t give me that he never had opportunities. His strength is being a defensive defenceman. OEL can play defence and provide a much higher level of offence. A level that Tanev can not reach.

I can’t believe I’m stating such an obvious fact to you!