Devron Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 1 minute ago, Coconuts said: Would I trade Horvat for a Zegras who hadn't shown anything yet? No. Would I trade Horvat for a Zegras who put up 13 points in 24 games? Also no. Well that's the issue with trading for guys who haven't established themselves yet. If you had made that trade when Zegras was 18 or 19 you'd be laughing now. You're not going to be trading Horvat for the #1 overall pick, slam dunk top line NHL player. An 8th or 9th overall pick with good potential is what you are going to get plus maybe a roster player. If JR was asking for Kasper for Horvat, Yzerman would be the one hanging up the phone, not JR. Kasper's projection in the NHL is Sean Couturier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 1 minute ago, Devron said: Buckle up, this is all we've got for like a week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devron Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 Just now, Coconuts said: Buckle up, this is all we've got for like a week Very true. Dead week. I hate the all star game 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 6 minutes ago, Coconuts said: Would I trade Horvat for a Zegras who hadn't shown anything yet? No. Would I trade Horvat for a Zegras who put up 13 points in 24 games? Also no. The answer to this should depend on the position of the team. A team that is looking to add to get over the jump then getting Horvat would make sense. A team going into a rebuild and needing cap room then trading Horvat for Zegras would make a lot of sense. ‘For the Canucks who are neither building a contender nor looking to rebuild it is pretty much a crap shoot as to what they would do. From past patterns though, trading an established NHL centre for a soft winger pretty much is on brand. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said: Well that's the issue with trading for guys who haven't established themselves yet. If you had made that trade when Zegras was 18 or 19 you'd be laughing now. You're not going to be trading Horvat for the #1 overall pick, slam dunk top line NHL player. An 8th or 9th overall pick with good potential is what you are going to get plus maybe a roster player. If JR was asking for Kasper for Horvat, Yzerman would be the one hanging up the phone, not JR. Kasper's projection in the NHL is Sean Couturier... Sure, but right now you have the benefit of retrospect. As a 9OA pick it wasn't likely Zegras was going to step in and go on to pile up 61 points in 75 games. Ducks struck gold there but that doesn't mean them striking gold with Zegras is the norm or that you can expect the same from a recent 8OA in Kaspar. Potential is just that, potential, whereas Bo is an established 1 or 2C depending on who he plays for. Horvat should be bringing in a top prospect and a 1st at the minimum. Even as a rental I'd be disappointed if all we returned was a Kaspar level prospect, it needs to be more than that. The Canucks are reportedly looking for three pieces, they aren't all going to be grade A pieces but it should at least be a top prospect and a 1st. Particularly given we're likely not trading with a Detroit level team but more likely a team with eyes on making noise come playoff time. So let's say a mid to low 1st, a top prospect, and a non-spectacular roster player. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Kneel Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 1 hour ago, DownUndaCanuck said: Detroit willing to pay Larkin 8M, he wants 9M. Larkins produced a tiny bit more than Bo in some seasons but certainly not this one. To those who sat Bo is worth 7M, this is just what star centers get now. Larkin at 9M is a bit outrageous, I think Bo and Larkin are both with 8M. The thing is consistent above average scoring, and not paying for the out lier year. So I think Bo knows that this year will be hard to replicate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 4 minutes ago, DrJockitch said: The answer to this should depend on the position of the team. A team that is looking to add to get over the jump then getting Horvat would make sense. A team going into a rebuild and needing cap room then trading Horvat for Zegras would make a lot of sense. ‘For the Canucks who are neither building a contender nor looking to rebuild it is pretty much a crap shoot as to what they would do. From past patterns though, trading an established NHL centre for a soft winger pretty much is on brand. Yup, context definitely matters. Folks can argue about Kaspar til they're blue in the face but I don't personally see Detroit as Horvat's landing spot. I'm of the mind that he's more likely to sign with a team that's closer to a cup and that he'd be willing to take a bit of a discount to stay with a team like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 8 minutes ago, Coconuts said: Sure, but right now you have the benefit of retrospect. As a 9OA pick it wasn't likely Zegras was going to step in and go on to pile up 61 points in 75 games. Ducks struck gold there but that doesn't mean them striking gold with Zegras is the norm or that you can expect the same from a recent 8OA in Kaspar. Potential is just that, potential, whereas Bo is an established 1 or 2C depending on who he plays for. Horvat should be bringing in a top prospect and a 1st at the minimum. Even as a rental I'd be disappointed if all we returned was a Kaspar level prospect, it needs to be more than that. The Canucks are reportedly looking for three pieces, they aren't all going to be grade A pieces but it should at least be a top prospect and a 1st. Particularly given we're likely not trading with a Detroit level team but more likely a team with eyes on making noise come playoff time. So let's say a mid to low 1st, a top prospect, and a non-spectacular roster player. We're not getting an 8th overall pick PLUS a 1st round pick for Horvat. You are overvaluing his worth. A top prospect could be Fabian Lysell, who was the 21st pick. So you can take Lysell and a late 1st or you can shoot for an 8th overall pick like Kasper and hope he turns into a Zegras type player or even a Horvat type player (he was a 9th overall pick). Kasper could turn out to be a 2C who is a great 200' player and is a perfect fit behind Petey. Lysell may be a 3rd liner in the NHL and the late first might be a 4th liner. At the end of the day, like I already mentioned it all depends on how highly Allvin rates Kasper, Lysell or any other top prospect. Maybe he rates Chaz Lucius higher than both these guys, so they try and make a deal with Winnipeg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said: We're not getting an 8th overall pick PLUS a 1st round pick for Horvat. You are overvaluing his worth. A top prospect could be Fabian Lysell, who was the 21st pick. So you can take Lysell and a late 1st or you can shoot for an 8th overall pick like Kasper and hope he turns into a Zegras type player or even a Horvat type player (he was a 9th overall pick). Kasper could turn out to be a 2C who is a great 200' player and is a perfect fit behind Petey. Lysell may be a 3rd liner in the NHL and the late first might be a 4th liner. At the end of the day, like I already mentioned it all depends on how highly Allvin rates Kasper, Lysell or any other top prospect. Maybe he rates Chaz Lucius higher than both these guys, so they try and make a deal with Winnipeg. Of course not, but we're almost certainly not trading with a team who's been low enough in the standings to have recently drafted a prospect at 8OA either. I said I'd be disappointed if all we got for Horvat was a Kaspar level prospect one for one and I would be, but realistically that's just theoretical and won't happen anyway. We're arguing over semantics, I don't think Detroit is a likely landing spot anyway. Kaspar could be a lot of things, he could be a bust. He could be a Filip Zadina, who was drafted even higher. Lysell could be a lot of things too, that's the gamble you take with prospects. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 36 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Depends on how highly Allvin rates Kasper. Schneider at the time was a top 5 goalie in the league and his return was the 9th pick, which turned into Horvat. So Horvat turning into the 8th pick and Marco Kasper seems to be on the same line as the Schneider trade. One could argue Schneider had more value than Horvat when he was traded as well. No 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 (edited) The Detroit argument seems to largely center around them being able to throw the biggest bag at him and them being a childhood favourite. Realistically Bo's going to get his bag anywhere, is an extra 7-8M (and not even that after taxes) worth giving up on any likelihood of ever winning anything significant? I'm of the mind that no, no it's probably not. Bo's already set for life, most of what he's done thus far in his career is lose, why wouldn't he go for a scenario where he could get paid AND win? He's not likely getting that in Detroit any time soon. Plus, Michigan ain't exactly a fantastic landing spot and this ain't the Detroit roster or organization of old. If Larkin himself wasn't actually from Michigan I doubt Detroit would have much of a shot at re-signing him and his staying there is no guarantee. Detroit has some good young pieces but they've got a long way to go. If folks think differently that's fantastic but that's my two cents as far as Detroit goes. Edited January 29, 2023 by Coconuts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 Just now, Coconuts said: The Detroit argument seems to largely center around them being able to the biggest bag at him and them being a childhood favourite. Realistically Bo's going to get his bag anywhere, is an extra 7-8M (and not even that after taxes) worth giving up on any likelihood of ever winning anything significant? I'm of the mind that no, no it's probably not. Bo's already set for life, most of what he's done thus far in his career is lose, why wouldn't he go for a scenario where he could get paid AND win? He's not likely getting that in Detroit any time soon. Plus, Michigan ain't exactly a fantastic landing spot and this ain't the Detroit roster or organization of old. If Larkin himself wasn't actually from Michigan I doubt Detroit would have much of a shot at re-signing him and his staying there is no guarantee. Detroit has some good young pieces but they've got a long way to go. If folks think differently that's fantastic but that's my two cents as far as Detroit goes. Yzerman is not caving to Larkin's ask who is their captain and C1 and has been better than Horvat (save this season). Why would he pay Horvat if he's not willing to pay Larkin. Got to wonder if he too could end up on the trade block if they can't get a deal done by the TDL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepThoughts Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 Some good points - it's moot, really, but so is all discussion here until one of these posters is promoted to GM. I will put in a word with the brass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, mll said: Yzerman is not caving to Larkin's ask who is their captain and C1 and has been better than Horvat (save this season). Why would he pay Horvat if he's not willing to pay Larkin. Got to wonder if he too could end up on the trade block if they can't get a deal done by the TDL. There's that as well. I wouldn't be surprised if Larkin was moved. That being said, Larkin could be harder for teams to acquire given he has a full NTC this season whereas Bo has no trade protection at all. Larkin very much controls his destiny right now. If I had to guess I'd say either Detroit loses this game of chicken or he's moved. Even if Detroit compromises and they meet in the middle of what each side is looking for Larkin wins. But if Detroit doesn't compromise at all I think he probably goes. From Michigan or not I think Larkin wants to win, most players do. And like Bo he'd probably get a good sized bag elsewhere while having a greater chance at winning and making the playoffs. Edited January 29, 2023 by Coconuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 47 minutes ago, aGENT said: No Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 27 minutes ago, DeepThoughts said: Some good points - it's moot, really, but so is all discussion here until one of these posters is promoted to GM. I will put in a word with the brass... Not only will I be the future captain of this team, but I will also have major input in all player transactions as well. These wannabe GM's on CDC have nothing on me really, I just like to play around with them and have some fun... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Yes A 30+goal, two time all star, one of the top face off guys in the league 1B/2A C captain, with leadership intangibles, is worth a touch more than an emerging 1B goalie that everyone knew we had to move one of. Goalies don't garner tonnes in trade at the best of times, and that was far from optimal conditions. So, no. Like laughably no Edited January 29, 2023 by aGENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenhodgejr Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 (edited) if we delt with Dallas a trade of - Wyatt Johnston, Thomas Harley, & 1st would be ok with me Edited January 29, 2023 by kenhodgejr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 2 minutes ago, aGENT said: A 30+goal, two time all star, one of the top face off guys in the league 1B/2A C captain, with leadership intangibles, is worth a touch more than an emerging 1B goalie that everyone knew we had to move one of. Goalies don't garner tonnes in trade at the best of times, and that was far from optimal conditions. So, no. Like laughably no Horvat was literally a 52 point player less than a year ago. Canucks fans are overvaluing him to the moon based on a career year and outlier season. But the good news is maybe another team will do the same thing and give us a massive overpayment. So for the sake of the team I hope you are right... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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