[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[Coconuts]

Just now, Devron said:

I can’t figure out the fans obsession with a letter on a jersey. 

I wish the team would skate onto the ice during practice every once in a while with every player wearing a different letter just to mess with the fanbase and media 

[AnthonyG]

30 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

We do not want to move any 1st at all.This is why we have new management here to stay away from giving up so many picks.We need one good rhd but the asking price is high and wouldn't be a fair trade unless it's for a BB or Bo plus young player which would be more reasonable.Or stay as is and wait till next summer which makes more sense.

I kinda disagree with not moving 1sts at this point in time. 
We are not rebuilding, so holding onto 1sts right now is not as dire as it was a few years ago. We have a very young team the likeliness of that 1st round pick is going to be closer to the bottom 10 than the top 10. You look at what a 1st got us in the last 2 trades made by JB. A top 4 D a #1 C and a 2nd line winger. If you can add a guy like Noah Dobson at the cost of a 1st and a roster player, you do it. He’s 22 and coming in at a 4mil cap hit for 3 years. Not only that but the chances of that 1st round pick displacing anyone of Petey, Miller, Podz, Bo, Boes, Hughes, OEL, Demko, Kuzmenko (TBD) Is pretty slim. But adding a guy like Dobson or another top 4 RHD from around the league guarantee’s you a roster player and at the cost of a player+pick+prospect. And if you could move a roster player and have someone within the system that could replace that player, you do it. Moving Garland and bringing in Hoglander is like not even losing Garland to begin with, because both of them are very similar and Hoglander is younger and on an ELC which would be maximizing your cap.

[IBatch]

9 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

I kinda disagree with not moving 1sts at this point in time. 
We are not rebuilding, so holding onto 1sts right now is not as dire as it was a few years ago. We have a very young team the likeliness of that 1st round pick is going to be closer to the bottom 10 than the top 10. You look at what a 1st got us in the last 2 trades made by JB. A top 4 D a #1 C and a 2nd line winger. If you can add a guy like Noah Dobson at the cost of a 1st and a roster player, you do it. He’s 22 and coming in at a 4mil cap hit for 3 years. Not only that but the chances of that 1st round pick displacing anyone of Petey, Miller, Podz, Bo, Boes, Hughes, OEL, Demko, Kuzmenko (TBD) Is pretty slim. But adding a guy like Dobson or another top 4 RHD from around the league guarantee’s you a roster player and at the cost of a player+pick+prospect. And if you could move a roster player and have someone within the system that could replace that player, you do it. Moving Garland and bringing in Hoglander is like not even losing Garland to begin with, because both of them are very similar and Hoglander is younger and on an ELC which would be maximizing your cap.

The only player that we'd be able to trade for Dobson is QHs or EP.   And then debate who is going to get the first and or prospect to even it out. 

 

My bet us our fanbase thinks we should, theirs think we should add the first and or prospect. 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by IBatch

[Coconuts]

11 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

I kinda disagree with not moving 1sts at this point in time. 
We are not rebuilding, so holding onto 1sts right now is not as dire as it was a few years ago. We have a very young team the likeliness of that 1st round pick is going to be closer to the bottom 10 than the top 10. You look at what a 1st got us in the last 2 trades made by JB. A top 4 D a #1 C and a 2nd line winger. If you can add a guy like Noah Dobson at the cost of a 1st and a roster player, you do it. He’s 22 and coming in at a 4mil cap hit for 3 years. Not only that but the chances of that 1st round pick displacing anyone of Petey, Miller, Podz, Bo, Boes, Hughes, OEL, Demko, Kuzmenko (TBD) Is pretty slim. But adding a guy like Dobson or another top 4 RHD from around the league guarantee’s you a roster player and at the cost of a player+pick+prospect. And if you could move a roster player and have someone within the system that could replace that player, you do it. Moving Garland and bringing in Hoglander is like not even losing Garland to begin with, because both of them are very similar and Hoglander is younger and on an ELC which would be maximizing your cap.

Teams don't move players like Dobson very often though, and even if he were on the market the Isles would be wanting players of significance as opposed to picks and prospects given they're a team looking to compete not build. Pettersson, Hughes, they'd likely be looking for players of that caliber in return. Teams just don't move high end RD very often, particularly when they're team controlled RFA's. Top end RD are arguably harder to find than top flight center's. 

 

I also disagree with your assessment of where we're at in regards to 1st round picks. Rebuilding or not we're an organization with a shallow prospect pool and the emphasis should be on remedying that as opposed to shipping out picks imo. Hughes, Pettersson, Podkolzin, they're not going to be young forever and we're going to need to draft and develop that next wave or players or risk having a talent gap similar to the one we began our rebuild with. The easiest way acquire top end talent is to draft and develop it yourself, it's much more costly to try and acquire it from other teams and teams will typically try to lock their top talent down. 

 

As a team that's likely to be middle of the pack any top prospect we draft is more likely to be your "wait and see" sort of prospect as opposed to your "jumping in sooner than later" type of prospect but that doesn't make them any less valuable. As this team takes steps forwards it'll also age and players who were once top players will show signs of decline. It's always important to balance drafting and developing the future of the team with managing a competitive roster. Plus, it's not as if we've shown ourselves to be contenders yet so the argument that we should be moving out picks and prospects to try and get over a perceived hump doesn't hold much merit. 

 

As for team construction, most of our roster is either just past 25, or closer to 30. The youth of the roster is skewed by a few players like Podkolzin, Hoglander, Pettersson, Hughes, and maybe Rathbone. And like I said, those young players will age, we'll need more youth in the pipeline developing who are hopefully able to jump in as part of the next wave. We're an organization with a serious lack of both quality center and D prospects in the system, I'd argue we need to hold on to our picks and use them to address that. 

[AnthonyG]

30 minutes ago, IBatch said:

The only player that we'd be able to trade for Dobson is QHs or EP.   And then debate who is going to get the first and or prospect to even it out. 

 

My bet us our fanbase thinks we should, theirs think we should add the first and or prospect. 

 

NYI’s future looks quite bleak. Looking at their group of FWDs it’s old and ugly. They also havent had a 1st round pick in 3 years and thats going to start putting them behind the 8ball pretty quick when a lot of these older players slow down and they havent drafted much high end talent and havent had a whole lot pan out the years prior. MDC, Ho-Sang, Reinhart… theres quite a few duds on the list. Their last strong draft to really produce much outside of Dobson and Wahlstrom is the 2015 draft. They have a pretty young blueline and they need to add talent upfront. Best way to do that is start collecting 1st’s because they are waaay behind right now. Its kinda like where VAN was in 2013. Might have to part with something on the blue to speed things up, someone that will net a pretty decent return. 
 

@Coconuts

Edited September 26, 2022 by AnthonyG

[Coconuts]

17 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

NYI’s future looks quite bleak. Looking at their group of FWDs it’s old and ugly. They also havent had a 1st round pick in 3 years and thats going to start putting them behind the 8ball pretty quick when a lot of these older players slow down and they havent drafted much high end talent and havent had a whole lot pan out the years prior. MDC, Ho-Sang, Reinhart… theres quite a few duds on the list. Their last strong draft to really produce much outside of Dobson and Wahlstrom is the 2015 draft. They have a pretty young blueline and they need to add talent upfront. Best way to do that is start collecting 1st’s because they are waaay behind right now. Its kinda like where VAN was in 2013. Might have to part with something on the blue to speed things up, someone that will net a pretty decent return. 
 

@Coconuts

The majority of the Isles forwards are in their late 20's, which leads me to believe that more than anything they'll likely try to compete sooner than later. They were consistently competitive prior to last season, but last season they were also consistently missing important players to either injury or Covid. They're likely better than they showed last season as a group, but if they were inclined to try and move cap out I reckon it'd be by moving forwards as opposed to D. 

 

Dobson is a player I'd be looking to build around if the goal was to look to the future, not ship out for lottery tickets that may or may not end up being players as talented as Dobson. If the Isles do indeed learn towards looking to the future it'd make more sense to hold on to their young players not move them. Particularly is they're cost controlled and signed to good value contracts. I'd even argue that their going out and adding Romanov was a move that showed they value talented young D and wanted to bring in another one to compliment Dobson in their top 4. 

 

There's been a lot of Dobson discussion over the summer and none of it's really made sense for the Isles imo. Lou also isn't a GM you're going to rob very often. 

 

All of this brings me back to my stance on 1st and 2nd round picks. If the Canucks didn't have such a pathetic history of drafting and developing their own D maybe we as Canucks fans wouldn't always be clamoring to bring them in from other teams. Only way to change that narrative is to actually place emphasis on drafting and properly developing our own talent. Isn't enough to talk about it, we've actually got to do it. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Coconuts

[AnthonyG]

39 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Teams don't move players like Dobson very often though, and even if he were on the market the Isles would be wanting players of significance as opposed to picks and prospects given they're a team looking to compete not build. Pettersson, Hughes, they'd likely be looking for players of that caliber in return. Teams just don't move high end RD very often, particularly when they're team controlled RFA's. Top end RD are arguably harder to find than top flight center's. 

 

I also disagree with your assessment of where we're at in regards to 1st round picks. Rebuilding or not we're an organization with a shallow prospect pool and the emphasis should be on remedying that as opposed to shipping out picks imo. Hughes, Pettersson, Podkolzin, they're not going to be young forever and we're going to need to draft and develop that next wave or players or risk having a talent gap similar to the one we began our rebuild with. The easiest way acquire top end talent is to draft and develop it yourself, it's much more costly to try and acquire it from other teams and teams will typically try to lock their top talent down. 

 

As a team that's likely to be middle of the pack any top prospect we draft is more likely to be your "wait and see" sort of prospect as opposed to your "jumping in sooner than later" type of prospect but that doesn't make them any less valuable. As this team takes steps forwards it'll also age and players who were once top players will show signs of decline. It's always important to balance drafting and developing the future of the team with managing a competitive roster. Plus, it's not as if we've shown ourselves to be contenders yet so the argument that we should be moving out picks and prospects to try and get over a perceived hump doesn't hold much merit. 

 

As for team construction, most of our roster is either just past 25, or closer to 30. The youth of the roster is skewed by a few players like Podkolzin, Hoglander, Pettersson, Hughes, and maybe Rathbone. And like I said, those young players will age, we'll need more youth in the pipeline developing who are hopefully able to jump in as part of the next wave. We're an organization with a serious lack of both quality center and D prospects in the system, I'd argue we need to hold on to our picks and use them to address that. 

I would argue that our FWD depth is among the deepest in the league, Horvat as a 3C is ridiculous down the middle. No matter how you slice the top 9 it looks very good. Plus they are all on fairly reasonable contracts and locked up for a few overlapping years. If we can add a legit top 4 RHD to go with this FWD group and Demko in net, we certainly put ourselves in a conversation for contending.
 

As I said, 1sts arent as dire as it was a few years ago, we do have time to draft and develop picks right now and it wouldnt be a major set back if we were to acquire a young top 4RHD at the cost of a player/pick/prospect. There would still be time to draft and develop the next years picks in a timely manner to step in. We are at a point right now where we can kinda sacrifice some picks if it nets a long term solution

 

 

You’re also talking about youth aging that isnt for a good 5+ years for almost everyone in the core except JT. The rest have plenty of time to play top level hockey. The amount of drafting and developing between now and when the majority of this young core are at their peak and on their way down is a loooong ways away. We have 5 years minimum before needing to get concerned with the next wave of youth taking over. Thats plenty of time to draft and develop even if we moved a 1st next year.

 

NYI’s chances to contend are over. That team is stale and needs to begin collecting picks and prospects ASAP or its going to get very ugly for them. 

[AnthonyG]

13 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

The majority of the Isles forwards are in their late 20's, which leads me to believe that more than anything they'll likely try to compete sooner than later. They were consistently competitive prior to last season, but last season they were also consistently missing important players to either injury or Covid. They're likely better than they showed last season as a group, but if they were inclined to try and move cap out I reckon it'd be by moving forwards as opposed to D. 

 

Dobson is a player I'd be looking to build around if the goal was to look to the future, not ship out for lottery tickets that may or may not end up being players as talented as Dobson. If the Isles do indeed learn towards looking to the future it'd make more sense to hold on to their young players not move them. Particularly is they're cost controlled and signed to good value contracts. I'd even argue that their going out and adding Romanov was a move that showed they value talented young D and wanted to bring in another one to compliment Dobson in their top 4. 

 

There's been a lot of Dobson discussion over the summer and none of it's really made sense for the Isles imo. Lou also isn't a GM you're going to rob very often. 

 

All of this brings me back to my stance on 1st and 2nd round picks. If the Canucks didn't have such a pathetic history of drafting and developing their own D maybe we as Canucks fans wouldn't always be clamoring to bring them in from other teams. Only way to change that narrative is to actually place emphasis on drafting and properly developing our own talent. Isn't enough to talk about it, we've actually got to do it. 

9 of NYIs FWDS are 30 or over. They are old AF

[AnthonyG]

14 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

The majority of the Isles forwards are in their late 20's, which leads me to believe that more than anything they'll likely try to compete sooner than later. They were consistently competitive prior to last season, but last season they were also consistently missing important players to either injury or Covid. They're likely better than they showed last season as a group, but if they were inclined to try and move cap out I reckon it'd be by moving forwards as opposed to D. 

 

Dobson is a player I'd be looking to build around if the goal was to look to the future, not ship out for lottery tickets that may or may not end up being players as talented as Dobson. If the Isles do indeed learn towards looking to the future it'd make more sense to hold on to their young players not move them. Particularly is they're cost controlled and signed to good value contracts. I'd even argue that their going out and adding Romanov was a move that showed they value talented young D and wanted to bring in another one to compliment Dobson in their top 4. 

 

There's been a lot of Dobson discussion over the summer and none of it's really made sense for the Isles imo. Lou also isn't a GM you're going to rob very often. 

 

All of this brings me back to my stance on 1st and 2nd round picks. If the Canucks didn't have such a pathetic history of drafting and developing their own D maybe we as Canucks fans wouldn't always be clamoring to bring them in from other teams. Only way to change that narrative is to actually place emphasis on drafting and properly developing our own talent. Isn't enough to talk about it, we've actually got to do it. 

Yea I agree it makes sense to hold onto youth if they are leaning toward rebuilding… however their drafting and development is soooooo far behind its not even funny. Which if they want to avoid a long and dark rebuild due to lack of organizational talent, they may be forced to part with some youth to acquire as many tickets to the draft as possible over the next few years, because they are about to waste Barzal’s prime and going to suck up a lot of the youth’s years and contract value. Like I said, their last good draft outside of the 2018 draft was 2015….. thats 7 going on 8 years ago. This is where Vancouver was when we traded Schneider. It was waaay too late by then and we’re very fortunate we were able to draft as strongly as we did from ‘14-19 and our future looks bright. NYI Hasnt done well drafting lately and havent had a 1st in 4 of the last 6 years…..

[Coconuts]

26 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

I would argue that our FWD depth is among the deepest in the league, Horvat as a 3C is ridiculous down the middle. No matter how you slice the top 9 it looks very good. Plus they are all on fairly reasonable contracts and locked up for a few overlapping years. If we can add a legit top 4 RHD to go with this FWD group and Demko in net, we certainly put ourselves in a conversation for contending.
 

As I said, 1sts arent as dire as it was a few years ago, we do have time to draft and develop picks right now and it wouldnt be a major set back if we were to acquire a young top 4RHD at the cost of a player/pick/prospect. There would still be time to draft and develop the next years picks in a timely manner to step in. We are at a point right now where we can kinda sacrifice some picks if it nets a long term solution

 

 

You’re also talking about youth aging that isnt for a good 5+ years for almost everyone in the core except JT. The rest have plenty of time to play top level hockey. The amount of drafting and developing between now and when the majority of this young core are at their peak and on their way down is a loooong ways away. We have 5 years minimum before needing to get concerned with the next wave of youth taking over. Thats plenty of time to draft and develop even if we moved a 1st next year.

 

NYI’s chances to contend are over. That team is stale and needs to begin collecting picks and prospects ASAP or its going to get very ugly for them. 

And I'd argue that our forward depth isn't sustainable as we need to reallocate cap to our D. It's more than likely we'll need to move a forward or two out to do so. Likely Boeser or Garland as I mentioned yesterday. 

 

We don't have the cap space to add another top 4D as of right now without subtracting cap from the roster. We're going to need both a replacement for Myers sooner than later and an additional top 4D, there is currently no succession plan for that in place. And even if we manage to replace Myers for his current 6M or less we'll still likely need to pay a sizeable chunk to whoever we fill that open top 4 slot with. 

 

Dallas just paid a 1st round pick for a high end RD prospect that hasn't done ANYTHING at the NHL level. If folks don't think that won't impact the market I don't know what to tell em. Acquiring young, NHL established top end RD is a fantasy. Teams don't move those players, they're incredibly valuable and hard to find to begin with. As as I've argued, 1st picks aren't a luxury to this organization and the cost of moving them out needs to be carefully weighed. We're an organization that's moved two 1st round picks out over the last three seasons, we need to start using them to draft our own players again.

 

As mentioned below the Islanders are in a place where they can compete with their current roster and have their perceived cap woes sort themselves out over the next few seasons, and if they hold on to and utilize their draft picks they'll build up their prospect system while doing so. There's no rush for them to be moving out top end young D to fast track some sort of youth movement, moving out their top end youth is counterintuitive to that anyway. 

 

 

25 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

9 of NYIs FWDS are 30 or over. They are old AF

And five of them have two years or less left on their deals, so there isn't a rush to address it as it'll resolve itself. Of the other four only only two are signed to four years or more and one of them makes 2.5M a season. Nelson and Palmieri both have three years apiece. 

 

So really, New York's cap scenario will resolve itself organically for the most part over the next three seasons. Not exactly reason to panic and move out Dobson if the idea is to shift directions, New York has staggered their cap well and only has three deals at five years or more on their current roster and two of them belong to D. You can even throw Pageau in the mix at 29 signed to four more years at 5M per and it won't matter because of the cap that'll organically come off the roster. 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Coconuts

[Fanuck]

51 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

I would argue that our FWD depth is among the deepest in the league,

I've heard this comment a lot recently.   Then BB goes on LTIR and Mik has an undisclosed injury and all of a sudden we're nowhere as deep as people thought.  If a centerman gets any significant injury we're in big trouble. 

 

People will say that can happen to any team, and sure it could,  but legit contenders will have defensive units that could sustain serious losses to the forward groups and withstand that, I doubt we could do the same.

[Locke Lamora]

6 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

I've heard this comment a lot recently.   Then BB goes on LTIR and Mik has an undisclosed injury and all of a sudden we're nowhere as deep as people thought.  If a centerman gets any significant injury we're in big trouble. 

 

People will say that can happen to any team, and sure it could,  but legit contenders will have defensive units that could sustain serious losses to the forward groups and withstand that, I doubt we could do the same.

Our forward depth is the reason why these injuries merely SUCK, but will not necessarily CRIPPLE the team. The oft talked about AHL-bound Hogz now has a chance to step up and fill the void.

[AnthonyG]

5 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

I've heard this comment a lot recently.   Then BB goes on LTIR and Mik has an undisclosed injury and all of a sudden we're nowhere as deep as people thought.  If a centerman gets any significant injury we're in big trouble. 

 

People will say that can happen to any team, and sure it could,  but legit contenders will have defensive units that could sustain serious losses to the forward groups and withstand that, I doubt we could do the same.

I’d argue against that. We lose BB and Mik, we lose a 3rd line. Still leaves us with a full top 6. Most other teams lose 2 top 6 players they lose a 2nd line. We can actually shuffle the deck and cover 2 top 6 players being out for a bit of time. Still leaves us

Miller, Petey, Kuz, Garland, Horvat, Podkz and Pearson. Thats 7 players thay can play in the top 6, plus Hoglander can get another shot and fill in on the 2nd and 3rd line, wherever he fits best. 
 

If we lose a C we still have any 2 combinations of Bo/Miller/Petey. We still have 2 top 6 C’s

 

Our forward depth is there. We can handle 1 or 2 guys out for a period of time. 

Years prior any injury to a C or 2 top 6 players would leave us seriously depleted.

[Mustard Tiger]

21 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

I've heard this comment a lot recently.   Then BB goes on LTIR and Mik has an undisclosed injury and all of a sudden we're nowhere as deep as people thought.  If a centerman gets any significant injury we're in big trouble. 

 

People will say that can happen to any team, and sure it could,  but legit contenders will have defensive units that could sustain serious losses to the forward groups and withstand that, I doubt we could do the same.

Pre season is a couple weeks anyways. To be honest though I feel like any little bit of adversity should be pretty easy to shake off after being damn near last entering December and finishing 40-30-12 last year. It's only brock anyways, The only impact he has on the game is finishing the play lol

[Westcoastcanucks777]

8 hours ago, Sophomore Jinx said:

I agree, Beyond Thunderdome was putrid.

You guys should be sent to the thunderdome for those comments!

[Ghostsof1915]

1 hour ago, Westcoastcanucks777 said:

You guys should be sent to the thunderdome for those comments!

Tina Turner in chainmail is NEVER putrid.

[Sophomore Jinx]

Just now, Ghostsof1915 said:

Tina Turner in chainmail is NEVER putrid.

I did dig the chainmail....but its plate mail that really does it for me.

[wai_lai416]

6 hours ago, Devron said:

I can’t figure out the fans obsession with a letter on a jersey. 

 because the fan base believes if you dont have a C on your jersey you are not allowed to be a leader.. when in reality a C or an A only gives you the extra benefit of getting explanation from refs and the added harassment from media after every lost.. captaincy doesn't make player listen or not listen to you.

[cripplereh]

7 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

I kinda disagree with not moving 1sts at this point in time. 
We are not rebuilding, so holding onto 1sts right now is not as dire as it was a few years ago. We have a very young team the likeliness of that 1st round pick is going to be closer to the bottom 10 than the top 10. You look at what a 1st got us in the last 2 trades made by JB. A top 4 D a #1 C and a 2nd line winger. If you can add a guy like Noah Dobson at the cost of a 1st and a roster player, you do it. He’s 22 and coming in at a 4mil cap hit for 3 years. Not only that but the chances of that 1st round pick displacing anyone of Petey, Miller, Podz, Bo, Boes, Hughes, OEL, Demko, Kuzmenko (TBD) Is pretty slim. But adding a guy like Dobson or another top 4 RHD from around the league guarantee’s you a roster player and at the cost of a player+pick+prospect. And if you could move a roster player and have someone within the system that could replace that player, you do it. Moving Garland and bringing in Hoglander is like not even losing Garland to begin with, because both of them are very similar and Hoglander is younger and on an ELC which would be maximizing your cap.

Dreaming if you want Dobson as it would cost a player like Bo 1st and at least our top young player.That is not worth it as that is a step backwards.A players like Carlo from Boston would cost less and has a cheaper contract.

[Westcoastcanucks777]

2 hours ago, Sophomore Jinx said:

I did dig the chainmail....but its plate mail that really does it for me.

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