A Review of GMJB's Trades - He Did Well!

[iinatcc]

I think who drafted better is irrelevant because when it's all said and done neither GM (Gillis and Benning) left the current roster any prospects or depth to work with in their system. 

 

I thin Benning defenders have just gotten used to so much losing that they set the bar so low for Benning to clear to be considered a good GM. The Miller trade says a lot since it's as though Benning pulled some sort of Patrick Roy blockbuster trade.

 

I think another thing to consider. In Gillis tenure a 2nd round exit was considered a dissapointment. In Benning the Canucks only 2nd round appearance was considered a success.

 

That's how low the bar has been set

 

 

[Kovalchuk]

2 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

So....Hughes, Petey, Brock, Podz, Hoglander all don't count as great picks because they didn't play in the AHL? 

Benning's major flaw was player and cap management. 

Benning more than once took gambles that didn't pay off. He thought he was onto something when Gaudette and Virtanen had 33 and 36 points respectively. 

Normally you take two younger, cheaper players over an older one. Problem is, both players never matched those career years. And fell off a cliff. 

Now if someone had offered Benning a 2nd and a 5th for both players, and maybe a prospect. Would Benning have made the move? 

Toffoli was a rental. He was insurance for Brock. Of the 3 Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli, Tanev was the one that hurt. Benning probably thought he'd find someone just as good for cheaper, and would be more durable. But Tanev got the last laugh. 

 

Considering that Benning who you seem to indicate sucked at drafting. Has had far more NHL'ers playing than Gillis did. Perhaps you want to go to us drafting guys like

Shinkaruk, and Mallet. Gillis at least got us Horvat. But a lot of Gillis' core was guys drafted by Nonis and Burke. 

 

I never even said he wasn't good at drafting.  I said his job was to build a competitive NHL AND AHL team.  He did neither, he actually did the opposite, both teams have been bad. 

 

So you're actually defending the Toffoli trade?   We had him for 17 games then he walked and we didn't even send him any kind of offer when he wanted to be here then resigned duds instead.   That was a fail. 

 

If two players you keep over another fall off a cliff, then that's on the GM, that's his decision and his problem.  Virtanen was not a good player and had poor character, it was an awful signing.  

 

McCann and a 2nd for Gudbranson

Forsling for Clendenning

2nd for Vey, 2nd for Baertschi

3rd for Pedan, 4th + Pedan for Pouliot

Toffoli

These are horrible, just horrible trades.

 

Juolevi, Virtanen busts

 

Gillis's job was to get us to the dance and he did that.  This isn't a Benning vs Gillis thing anyways, this is a Benning was bad at his job thing.  Do we really compare GM's by who drafts more good players?  Benning picked top 5 consistently, Gillis picked bottom 5 consistently and 2010-2012 were pretty bad draft years, we're talking Yakupov and RNH first overalls bad.  Benning's scouting has been okay but he's found no late round gems, he has 1st rounders and early 2nd rounder in his lineup.  Where are the 6th round Mangiapanes?  The 3rd round Adam Fox's?  4th round Bathersons. That's where a scout earns their money.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Kovalchuk

[Timråfan]

3 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

So....Hughes, Petey, Brock, Podz, Hoglander all don't count as great picks because they didn't play in the AHL? 

Benning's major flaw was player and cap management. 

Benning more than once took gambles that didn't pay off. He thought he was onto something when Gaudette and Virtanen had 33 and 36 points respectively. 

Normally you take two younger, cheaper players over an older one. Problem is, both players never matched those career years. And fell off a cliff. 

Now if someone had offered Benning a 2nd and a 5th for both players, and maybe a prospect. Would Benning have made the move? 

Toffoli was a rental. He was insurance for Brock. Of the 3 Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli, Tanev was the one that hurt. Benning probably thought he'd find someone just as good for cheaper, and would be more durable. But Tanev got the last laugh. 

 

Considering that Benning who you seem to indicate sucked at drafting. Has had far more NHL'ers playing than Gillis did. Perhaps you want to go to us drafting guys like

Shinkaruk, and Mallet. Gillis at least got us Horvat. But a lot of Gillis' core was guys drafted by Nonis and Burke. 

 

Didn’t you even bother to read the quote?

Benning had the fortune of drafting very low almost every year.

 

Where are the Mangiapanis, Gaudreaus etc?

The players on the team drafted by Bennings Team is 1st rounders. 
where are the lower picks developed by the organisation?

Benning doesn’t cut it as a GM.

Great listener of info from his scout regarding 1sts but later picks is missing completely.

I can blame AHL with Cull as one problem but the GM is responsible for every hiring of staff in the organisation.

That is why Gillis is blamed for his drafting.

His winning percentage is forgotten it seems… How is it with Bennings winning percentage? 

[wai_lai416]

6 hours ago, iinatcc said:

I think that was 2016 but Benning could have traded Hamhius and/or Vrbata in the deadline but nope he didn't. 

 

As for Aquilini refusing the rebuild, sure but we've also seen successful retools recently like in Boston, St. Louis, Washington and now LA. So a retool could be done, Benning didn't do a good job in that. 

there's a significant difference between the retool in boston St Louis Washington LA... they still have their franchise players in their prime.. like the pastrnak marchand bergeron.. o reilly tarasenko pietreangelo.. the ovechkin backstrom wilson kutznezov.. and LA i dunno if i would call LA a successful retool.. they really haven't done anything since their last cup win and still in the middle of their retool/rebuild.. but they still have the kopitars doughty there etc.. in vancouver? we had nothing but declining player past prime.

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, Kovalchuk said:

I never even said he wasn't good at drafting.  I said his job was to build a competitive NHL AND AHL team.  He did neither, he actually did the opposite, both teams have been bad. 

 

So you're actually defending the Toffoli trade?   We had him for 17 games then he walked and we didn't even send him any kind of offer when he wanted to be here then resigned duds instead.   That was a fail. 

 

If two players you keep over another fall off a cliff, then that's on the GM, that's his decision and his problem.  Virtanen was not a good player and had poor character, it was an awful signing.  

 

McCann and a 2nd for Gudbranson

Forsling for Clendenning

2nd for Vey, 2nd for Baertschi

3rd for Pedan, 4th + Pedan for Pouliot

Toffoli

These are horrible, just horrible trades.

 

Juolevi, Virtanen busts

 

Gillis's job was to get us to the dance and he did that.  This isn't a Benning vs Gillis thing anyways, this is a Benning was bad at his job thing.  Do we really compare GM's by who drafts more good players?  Benning picked top 5 consistently, Gillis picked bottom 5 consistently and 2010-2012 were pretty bad draft years, we're talking Yakupov and RNH first overalls bad.  Benning's scouting has been okay but he's found no late round gems, he has 1st rounders and early 2nd rounder in his lineup.  Where are the 6th round Mangiapanes?  The 3rd round Adam Fox's?  4th round Bathersons. That's where a scout earns their money.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Meh.   Benning drafting because of the lottery, and before the lottery, 6, 22, 5, 5, 7, 10...MG also had a 10,9 via trade.   It's for sure not just about the draft.   Burke - 2,3,4 ... Sedins and Allen.   With some gymnastics.   Quin sh!y the bed on consecutive drafts but also drafted high twice 2 and Nedved.   You can't criticize JB drafting without looking at what also was drafted during his tenure.   If you take a deep dive he was above average despite where he drafted.    ADP matters or average drafting position.  Even with his JV/OJ picks he did well.    If he had that and Quins trading ability we'd be sorted.   Hard to get a trading ability until people want to waive because of the claude era too.   JB did a decent job.   That's about it.   Will Rutherford have the balls to tear it down to the studs - or are we going to be whining about this for another 8 years? 

[frank einstein]

4 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

there's a significant difference between the retool in boston St Louis Washington LA... they still have their franchise players in their prime.. like the pastrnak marchand bergeron.. o reilly tarasenko pietreangelo.. the ovechkin backstrom wilson kutznezov.. and LA i dunno if i would call LA a successful retool.. they really haven't done anything since their last cup win and still in the middle of their retool/rebuild.. but they still have the kopitars doughty there etc.. in vancouver? we had nothing but declining player past prime.

Hard to know beforehand at what rate the Sedins would decline. But that reminds me, where are they? Are they completely out now? 

Edited February 16, 2022 by frank einstein

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, frank einstein said:

Hard to know beforehand at what rate the Sedins would decline. But that reminds me, where are they? Are they completely out now? 

Aren't they advisors to the management group? Or did JR get rid of them 

[frank einstein]

41 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

Aren't they advisors to the management group? Or did JR get rid of them 

that's what i was wondering. I haven't heard any talk about it all this time

[RU SERIOUS]

16 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

So....Hughes, Petey, Brock, Podz, Hoglander all don't count as great picks because they didn't play in the AHL? 

Benning's major flaw was player and cap management. 

Benning more than once took gambles that didn't pay off. He thought he was onto something when Gaudette and Virtanen had 33 and 36 points respectively. 

Normally you take two younger, cheaper players over an older one. Problem is, both players never matched those career years. And fell off a cliff. 

Now if someone had offered Benning a 2nd and a 5th for both players, and maybe a prospect. Would Benning have made the move? 

Toffoli was a rental. He was insurance for Brock. Of the 3 Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli, Tanev was the one that hurt. Benning probably thought he'd find someone just as good for cheaper, and would be more durable. But Tanev got the last laugh. 

 

Considering that Benning who you seem to indicate sucked at drafting. Has had far more NHL'ers playing than Gillis did. Perhaps you want to go to us drafting guys like

Shinkaruk, and Mallet. Gillis at least got us Horvat. But a lot of Gillis' core was guys drafted by Nonis and Burke. 

 

I wouldn't prop those guys up so loudly.   Aside from Hughes and Demko, EP40, BB, Podz & Hogs are all in severe slumps and all look like ordinary to below ordinary players at this point.    I'm not sure if this is temporary (hope not) or if they will all turn out to be "One Season - Flash-in-the-Pan" wonders, or if their regression is simply due to Coach green ruining them (like absolutely everyone else he touched) and they can still be salvaged.   But at this point all of them would be lucky to be 3rd or 4th line players on any other descent team at best.  Hope BB can save them because they all had one great season each and looked good once-upon a time!    

[iinatcc]

11 hours ago, frank einstein said:

that's what i was wondering. I haven't heard any talk about it all this time

It does seem we haven't heard of the Sedins since the regime change. I wonder if they are getting along with the new management group. I

[filthycanuck]

21 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

there's a significant difference between the retool in boston St Louis Washington LA... they still have their franchise players in their prime.. like the pastrnak marchand bergeron.. o reilly tarasenko pietreangelo.. the ovechkin backstrom wilson kutznezov.. and LA i dunno if i would call LA a successful retool.. they really haven't done anything since their last cup win and still in the middle of their retool/rebuild.. but they still have the kopitars doughty there etc.. in vancouver? we had nothing but declining player past prime.

What did you expect? 8 straight stanley cups? LOL. At least they won a cup, Gillis took us one win away from winning one. Benning's tenure, you can hardly call us a wild card team, let alone cup contenders

[filthycanuck]

On 2/16/2022 at 2:09 AM, Timråfan said:

Didn’t you even bother to read the quote?

Benning had the fortune of drafting very low almost every year.

 

Where are the Mangiapanis, Gaudreaus etc?

The players on the team drafted by Bennings Team is 1st rounders. 
where are the lower picks developed by the organisation?

Benning doesn’t cut it as a GM.

Great listener of info from his scout regarding 1sts but later picks is missing completely.

I can blame AHL with Cull as one problem but the GM is responsible for every hiring of staff in the organisation.

That is why Gillis is blamed for his drafting.

His winning percentage is forgotten it seems… How is it with Bennings winning percentage? 

I implore people to go to Rogers arena and actually look at the rafters. There's ZERO banners there that has anything to do with Jim Benning.

Edited February 17, 2022 by filthycanuck

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

I implore people to go to Rogers arena and actually look at the rafters. There's ZERO banners there that has anything to do with Jim Benning.

We all know it was going to be a tough run.   Didn't we?   You need to let it go it will give you an ulcer!   We were a top 3 team for a 14 year period, only SJ and DET won close to or as many games as we did over the WCE era until JB took over.   Those banners up there are a big part of the reason for that.   Sure i get it must be tough for some fans that grew up with all that winning.     JB era or whomever else took over - was always going to be rough.   You can't run a cap team with 8-9 years of dreadful drafting and expect much.    JB made mistakes for sure.    Fall guys usually are just that - just glad Linden cut bait and ran when he did. 

[wai_lai416]

4 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

What did you expect? 8 straight stanley cups? LOL. At least they won a cup, Gillis took us one win away from winning one. Benning's tenure, you can hardly call us a wild card team, let alone cup contenders

What are u even talking about?? The guy said FA and Benning saw other teams such as those did a successful retool and I pointed out their rebuild included multiple players in their prime where we have none and they were all declining so not sure why he thinks we could have done a retool

[lmm]

On 2/16/2022 at 12:23 AM, Kovalchuk said:

I never even said he wasn't good at drafting.  I said his job was to build a competitive NHL AND AHL team.  He did neither, he actually did the opposite, both teams have been bad. 

 

So you're actually defending the Toffoli trade?   We had him for 17 games then he walked and we didn't even send him any kind of offer when he wanted to be here then resigned duds instead.   That was a fail. 

 

If two players you keep over another fall off a cliff, then that's on the GM, that's his decision and his problem.  Virtanen was not a good player and had poor character, it was an awful signing.  

 

McCann and a 2nd for Gudbranson

Forsling for Clendenning

2nd for Vey, 2nd for Baertschi

3rd for Pedan, 4th + Pedan for Pouliot

Toffoli

These are horrible, just horrible trades.

 

Juolevi, Virtanen busts

 

Gillis's job was to get us to the dance and he did that.  This isn't a Benning vs Gillis thing anyways, this is a Benning was bad at his job thing.  Do we really compare GM's by who drafts more good players?  Benning picked top 5 consistently, Gillis picked bottom 5 consistently and 2010-2012 were pretty bad draft years, we're talking Yakupov and RNH first overalls bad.  Benning's scouting has been okay but he's found no late round gems, he has 1st rounders and early 2nd rounder in his lineup.  Where are the 6th round Mangiapanes?  The 3rd round Adam Fox's?  4th round Bathersons. That's where a scout earns their money.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is there any truth to the rumor (that I am just making up right now) that Ol Jimmer was into numerology or that he was stifled from running the  Bruins draft in 2011, and that his tenure in Vancouver was soley driven by the goal of proving he could build a team from the 2011 draft?

During his time here Jimmer acquired 10 players from the 2011 draft.

He finally got a hit with JT Miller, but that was after trying out Baertschi, Clendenning,Granlund,Pedan,Crammarossa,Boucher,Boyd,Graovac (ok, Boyd + Grao came later)and Leivo were all Jim's attempts at Filling the age gap with 2011 picks

[IBatch]

18 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

I wouldn't prop those guys up so loudly.   Aside from Hughes and Demko, EP40, BB, Podz & Hogs are all in severe slumps and all look like ordinary to below ordinary players at this point.    I'm not sure if this is temporary (hope not) or if they will all turn out to be "One Season - Flash-in-the-Pan" wonders, or if their regression is simply due to Coach green ruining them (like absolutely everyone else he touched) and they can still be salvaged.   But at this point all of them would be lucky to be 3rd or 4th line players on any other descent team at best.  Hope BB can save them because they all had one great season each and looked good once-upon a time!    

That's fantasy land stuff.   You can't have it both ways.   These guys including Miller and Pearson actually, had their best seasons under Green.   What the heck does "at this point all of them would be lucky to be 3rd or 4th line  players on any other descent team at best" even mean!   Decent team?   Well we are a decent team under Bruce are we not!?   Green and Bruce can take their equipment off - put them on themselves - and go out there and do it for them.   It's 100% on them to put the work in and do it.    Markstrom also became a beast under Green.   I don't think he's a bad coach - and i don't think he's a great coach either - but you can't have it both ways.   EP and Brock need to figure it out.   Also if Bruce is such a "great coach" why hasn't Horvat changed much since he arrived?  Or Hogs ... or Podz or EP or Brock really.   Good grief it's mostly about the players. And that's on JB still more then anything else.   Green also had his winning streaks.  

[RU SERIOUS]

10 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

What did you expect? 8 straight stanley cups? LOL. At least they won a cup, Gillis took us one win away from winning one. Benning's tenure, you can hardly call us a wild card team, let alone cup contenders

I think the best way to desribe us under Uncle Jim is like a bottom  feeding Cat fish!

[Kovalchuk]

12 hours ago, IBatch said:

We all know it was going to be a tough run.   Didn't we?   You need to let it go it will give you an ulcer!   We were a top 3 team for a 14 year period, only SJ and DET won close to or as many games as we did over the WCE era until JB took over.   Those banners up there are a big part of the reason for that.   Sure i get it must be tough for some fans that grew up with all that winning.     JB era or whomever else took over - was always going to be rough.   You can't run a cap team with 8-9 years of dreadful drafting and expect much.    JB made mistakes for sure.    Fall guys usually are just that - just glad Linden cut bait and ran when he did. 

No team at the cap should ever be as bad as we were.  Team's as bad as us during Benning tenure were teams like Arizona who literally give tickets away practically for free and would scrape and claw just to be at the cap floor.  There was no room, effort or ability to get creative, we didn't weaponize any cap to get extra picks, assets, we made horrible signings, we let players walk at the deadline, we traded a boat load of picks for players that didn't work out.  It was a complete and utter mess

Edited February 18, 2022 by Kovalchuk

[Kovalchuk]

On 2/16/2022 at 2:50 PM, RU SERIOUS said:

I wouldn't prop those guys up so loudly.   Aside from Hughes and Demko, EP40, BB, Podz & Hogs are all in severe slumps and all look like ordinary to below ordinary players at this point.    I'm not sure if this is temporary (hope not) or if they will all turn out to be "One Season - Flash-in-the-Pan" wonders, or if their regression is simply due to Coach green ruining them (like absolutely everyone else he touched) and they can still be salvaged.   But at this point all of them would be lucky to be 3rd or 4th line players on any other descent team at best.  Hope BB can save them because they all had one great season each and looked good once-upon a time!    

I think Petterson is a huge elephant in the room, nobody wants to talk about it and I get it, we need him to work out but right now and most of last year he just doesn't look like a guy that can carry this team.  Not even close 

[RU SERIOUS]

12 minutes ago, Kovalchuk said:

I think Petterson is a huge elephant in the room, nobody wants to talk about it and I get it, we need him to work out but right now and most of last year he just doesn't look like a guy that can carry this team.  Not even close 

I'm afraid to say that I think you're 100% right.     He has been regressing over the past two years and my prediction is they give hiim one more year to shape up and then he's gone.  I wouldn't even be surprised to see JR trade him this year as pettersson is looking like no better than an average 3rd line player at the very best. Usually more like a 4th line player on the bubble.  He's been worse than terrible this year.  About 80-90% of the time he touches the puck - it's a mess! Just watch him very closely  at the next game and call me a liar!