Trading Elite Players in their Prime -- Are we expecting too much?

[alt kilgore]

2 hours ago, Canuckster86 said:

What did JR just say?? And why he is the go to guy with GM Allvin hired...Sure hope its not just a puppet hire and we let him do what Allvin wants not let JR pull the  strings

I think its kind of odd that JR wanted to configure his own title this way.  If Rutherford is actually making the decisions, he should have accepted the role and title as GM. To avoid confusion.  And then hired Allvin as his #1 AGM.   And at some point, JR could retire, or take the title of POHO and hand the reigns over.

 

I can see this is setting up for a sleazy Sekeressy story in future about how Allvin is secretly angry and feels like he can't do his job, and why name him GM if he's under the thumb of JR? etc etc..

[MeanSeanBean]

2 hours ago, Canuckster86 said:

What did JR just say?? And why he is the go to guy with GM Allvin hired...Sure hope its not just a puppet hire and we let him do what Allvin wants not let JR pull the  strings

JR has stated numerous times that Allvin is the GM but his door is always open if he needs advice. JR has been with the team longer, and has more sway in the hockey community. It doesn't surprise me at all that he's being the more vocal of the 2 right now.

[Timråfan]

13 minutes ago, kilgore said:

I think its kind of odd that JR wanted to configure his own title this way.  If Rutherford is actually making the decisions, he should have accepted the role and title as GM. To avoid confusion.  And then hired Allvin as his #1 AGM.   And at some point, JR could retire, or take the title of POHO and hand the reigns over.

 

I can see this is setting up for a sleazy Sekeressy story in future about how Allvin is secretly angry and feels like he can't do his job, and why name him GM if he's under the thumb of JR? etc etc..

Allvin is a swede, so team is no. 1. 

No bad feelings towards JR so to say as Allvin appreciates knowledge and experiance. 

Group dynamics is probably in Allvins blood. 

[shiznak]

Ahem….,

 

 

 

Pretty much what I’ve been saying a month ago. 

[mll]

38 minutes ago, gurn said:

He can't, he would be an rfa.

So he can't just walk.

He could get offer sheeted, or traded, or sit out; but other than that he will be a Canuck.

He could also take the team to arbitration to get a 1 year deal that brings him to UFA.  That was the Trouba situation in Winnipeg.  They knew he wanted out and was going to file to get that 1 year deal so they traded him.  

[spook007]

28 minutes ago, kilgore said:

I think its kind of odd that JR wanted to configure his own title this way.  If Rutherford is actually making the decisions, he should have accepted the role and title as GM. To avoid confusion.  And then hired Allvin as his #1 AGM.   And at some point, JR could retire, or take the title of POHO and hand the reigns over.

 

I can see this is setting up for a sleazy Sekeressy story in future about how Allvin is secretly angry and feels like he can't do his job, and why name him GM if he's under the thumb of JR? etc etc..

Think they worked together for 7 years already?

Don't think their world will be miles apart in how they think the game and team building... probably one of the reasons JR signed him to be GM in the first place...

Don't know if he is any worse or better than the other candidates, but the fact they worked together for 7 years prior to this, and that JR already has promoted him a couple of times suggests he trusts him, and have taught him in his images. And this alone should, for me at least ,hopefully be good enough to avoid the power struggle, we saw between Benning and Linden... 

[13231]

4 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

Starting to think that if they traded Miller, Boeser and/or Garland, they could sure get a real good Dman.  I hope they transform that D.

 

 

 

 

Trade 3 top 6 players, one of them a top 10 scorer in the NHL, to improve a D that is already top 15 in the league while battling injuries? 

Edited February 7, 2022 by 13231

[13231]

2 hours ago, Harold Drunken said:

Yeah the opinions obviously range on this but the NHL is getting younger and younger, 30's isn't really considered prime anymore. Players are better younger now and when you look at the best players in the league they are well under 28.

 

Your second question, sheesh that's loaded and you'd have to ask ownership and management that one. I would argue Goalies reach their prime later, that's been the case for a long time as they take longer to develop. And if Pettersson is playing like a player in their prime then we have even bigger issues, let's say hopefully he's still developing. 

 

You're right, we don't know the outcome if we trade him. We also don't' know the outcome and consequences if we keep him either. It's a crap shoot. I can tell you one thing, doing nothing and accepting the status quo isn't very good either. 

The majority of the top 20 scorers in the NHL right now, and 5/10 of the top 10, are 28 and older. The notion that there's a risk in keeping a player past 28/29 because they will fall off is very short sighted and ill informed. The fact that the trade Miller echo chamber is using his age as the determining factor for their opinion just strikes me as lazy and uneducated, tbh. Would you have traded Daniel & Henrik away in 2008? Luongo in 2007? Bertuzzi & Naslund in the early 00s? This obsession with age and draft picks is quiet baffling, especially when you have the examples of Edmonton, Buffalo, etc right in front of you. 

 

The way Miller plays the game, he has the capability to sustain his productivity to age 34-35. I would definitely want a player of his character and caliber on the team long term as we get better with Petey, Hughes, Demko and Brock emerging even stronger in their game. 

[13231]

1 hour ago, HKSR said:

I really don't get this mentality.  Petey and Boeser are not playing well at all.  Are we expecting that they will be this way forever?  Do we feel Podz and Hogs will not improve?  Heck, even Bo is underachieving this year.  We've seen a dramatic improvement with a coaching change, why not see what they can do?

 

I've reiterated in previous threads... this is the timeline...

2018-19:  Pettersson rookie year

2019-20:  Hughes rookie year

2020-21:  Pettersson injury after 26 games

2021-22:  Give up on this group???

 

How on Earth do we KNOW that this team is not good enough?  Arguably, they have barely had any seasons TOGETHER yet... (by together, I mean Petey, Hughes, Miller, Boeser, Bo, Demko). 

 

The only season they have had TOGETHER prior to this one is 2019-20.  They finished 4th in the division with a 36-27-6 record, eliminated the Wild in the play-in round, eliminated the Blues in the 1st round, and took Vegas to game 7 in the 2nd round.

We have a very emotional and volatile fan base. We're infamous for our overreactions and negativity around the league. What you have stated are facts and reason and these will not suffice here unfortunately. 

[Harold Drunken]

17 minutes ago, 13231 said:

The majority of the top 20 scorers in the NHL right now, and 5/10 of the top 10, are 28 and older. The notion that there's a risk in keeping a player past 28/29 because they will fall off is very short sighted and ill informed. The fact that the trade Miller echo chamber is using his age as the determining factor for their opinion just strikes me as lazy and uneducated, tbh. Would you have traded Daniel & Henrik away in 2008? Luongo in 2007? Bertuzzi & Naslund in the early 00s? This obsession with age and draft picks is quiet baffling, especially when you have the examples of Edmonton, Buffalo, etc right in front of you. 

 

The way Miller plays the game, he has the capability to sustain his productivity to age 34-35. I would definitely want a player of his character and caliber on the team long term as we get better with Petey, Hughes, Demko and Brock emerging even stronger in their game. 

The league is becoming younger and players are contributing sooner and at a younger age, there was no notion made that having a player past 28/29 is a risk - don't know where you're getting that from we were simply discussing when a players prime is. Nowhere did I say you must get rid of players at this age or they aren't useful any longer lol. I also never said players over 30 can't and don't produce. You're taking this one conversation out of context and spreading it onto the plethora of others on why he should/shouldn't be traded. I simply said he wasn't "entering his prime" he was "in his prime/on the back side of it" big different age and timeline wise. 

 

You saying Miller has the capability to sustain his productivity to 34-35 is based on what? Unless you can see into the future that's pure speculation and a just guess to blindly support your point. Keep in mind I like Miller, at the right price and term would love to keep him - this was simply a conversation about a players "prime" - that's it.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Harold Drunken

[Nave]

I personally don't like the idea of trading Miller. He's our best forward right now.
Although I understand it may be a good idea to trade him in the long run. 

It's hard to not get partial to your players. I'm just glad I'm not making the decisions.

[Harold Drunken]

Just now, Nave said:

I personally don't like the idea of trading Miller. He's our best forward right now.
Although I understand it may be a good idea to trade him in the long run. 

It's hard to not get partial to your players. I'm just glad I'm not making the decisions.

Yeah that's what some aren't seeing, short term yes of course he's our best player and losing him will hurt us but if GM's always thought short term they would be losing their jobs even more often. GM's often have to think long term to achieve sustainable success, but you're right not a decision I would want to make. We are all assuming Miller will re-sign or wants to, he has more reasons not to then to re-sign. 

[Harold Drunken]

38 minutes ago, 13231 said:

Trade 3 top 6 players, one of them a top 10 scorer in the NHL, to improve a D that is already top 15 in the league while battling injuries? 

Interested to what metrics and statistics you're using in saying our D is top 15 in the league??

[13231]

Just now, Harold Drunken said:

The league is becoming younger and players are contributing sooner and at a younger age, there was no notion made that having a player past 28/29 is a risk - don't know where you're getting that from we were simply discussing when a players prime is. Nowhere did I say you must get rid of players at this age or they aren't useful any longer lol. I also never said players over 30 can't and don't produce. You're taking this one conversation out of context is spreading it onto the plethora of others why why he should/shouldn't be traded. I simply said he wasn't "entering his prime" he was "in his prime" big different age and timeline wise. 

 

You saying Miller has the capability to sustain his productivity to 34-35 is based on what? Unless you can see into the future that's pure speculation and a guess.

The notion to trade Miller because of his age is visibly implicit in your posts, and there's people throughout the fan base who are adamant that that is the reason they want him out. My post is to address and counter that opinion with what is actually going on in the NHL right now, and for the past several years, in terms of scoring. 

 

You can also say Miller entered his prime at age 26/27. He is 28 now so there isn't as big a difference age/timeline wise as you think, you can give or take one season. I also said based on the way he plays the game (which isn't based on speed or extreme toughness), you can foresee to a good degree that he will sustain his productivity. I didn't say it is a guarantee, but an educated guess based on actual trends, especially if guys like Kadri, Pavelski, Wheeler, Marchand, Kessel and a multitude of others in the cap era can be a PPG into their early-mid thirties. 

 

The Miller trade rumors are nothing but typical ill informed hysteria started by our own fan base that is serving as a blatant distraction to the team which is coming into its own and doing very well in the last few months they've played together. Let's see them play out the games they have and let the management get a good look before we start pestering the internet about trading our leading scorer. 

[Harold Drunken]

1 hour ago, shiznak said:

Ahem….,

 

 

 

Pretty much what I’ve been saying a month ago. 

Yeah you guys keep missing the point, there are obvious REASONS professional NHL general managers made those trades. You know, there is more going on behind the scenes than simply re-signing that player and if the cap will allow it. Did you ever consider how many of them wanted to re-sign with their previous team once their contract was over? The GM HAS to trade and get something for them without letting them hit free agency for nothing in return for example. There's so much more to it, we act on here like ok keep Miller for another two years and OF COURSE he'll re-sign long term etc - we don't know that and you can bet JR and Patrik have had that conversation with him. 

 

The fact that PPG players rarely get traded is erroneous because every team and players situation is unique. This teams situation is unique, up against the cap, third highest paid blue line in the NHL and struggling to make the playoffs. JR has said again and again they want cap room and flexibility. You don't achieve that easily without moving your bigger contracts for assets. You can argue, or you can listen to the words coming out of managements mouth. 

[Harold Drunken]

Just now, 13231 said:

The notion to trade Miller because of his age is visibly implicit in your posts, and there's people throughout the fan base who are adamant that that is the reason they want him out. My post is to address and counter that opinion with what is actually going on in the NHL right now, and for the past several years, in terms of scoring. 

 

You can also say Miller entered his prime at age 26/27. He is 28 now so there isn't as big a difference age/timeline wise as you think, you can give or take one season. I also said based on the way he plays the game (which isn't based on speed or extreme toughness), you can foresee to a good degree that he will sustain his productivity. I didn't say it is a guarantee, but an educated guess based on actual trends, especially if guys like Kadri, Pavelski, Wheeler, Marchand, Kessel and a multitude of others in the cap era can be a PPG into their early-mid thirties. 

 

The Miller trade rumors are nothing but typical ill informed hysteria started by our own fan base that is serving as a blatant distraction to the team which is coming into its own and doing very well in the last few months they've played together. Let's see them play out the games they have and let the management get a good look before we start pestering the internet about trading our leading scorer. 

No, The notion that Miller is our most tradeable player who we'll get the most return from is implicit in my posts. You're obviously entitled to your many opinions. 

 

You assume Miller wants to be here long term too? You don't know what's going on behind the scenes, there's lots of assuming going on both sides of the argument. 

[13231]

17 minutes ago, Harold Drunken said:

Interested to what metrics and statistics you're using in saying our D is top 15 in the league??

https://www.foxsports.com/nhl/team-stats

Check out the GA and GAA%

 

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/teamtable.php

Check out literally any 5v5 stat here. 

 

What metrics are you using to determine we should trade 3/6 top 6 to improve our D?

[13231]

10 minutes ago, Harold Drunken said:

No, The notion that Miller is our most tradeable player who we'll get the most return from is implicit in my posts. You're obviously entitled to your many opinions. 

 

You assume Miller wants to be here long term too? You don't know what's going on behind the scenes, there's lots of assuming going on both sides of the argument. 

And how did you arrive to that conclusion? Because your worries about his age are everywhere in your posts and on the posts you've liked. You're entitled to your opinion as well, I am simply addressing it with what is actually happening in NHL with players of Miller's age and skill set. And as for your last question, he has literally said he wants to stay in Vancouver, I can provide the link to that quote to you as well if you'd like. 

[Harold Drunken]

15 minutes ago, 13231 said:

https://www.foxsports.com/nhl/team-stats

Check out the GA and GAA%

 

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/teamtable.php

Check out literally any 5v5 stat here. 

 

What metrics are you using to determine we should trade 3/6 top 6 to improve our D?

So the goalies and forwards have nothing to do with those stats hey? Are you insane lol You're using 5v5 stats when there's 3 forwards and a goalie on the ice too ....How about us having the third highest paid D in the league and fewest goals? Or a $7+ million dollar defenseman with 9 points in 43 games. I think our entire structure and system might have something to do with those stats eh? You think?

[Harold Drunken]

9 minutes ago, 13231 said:

And how did you arrive to that conclusion? Because your worries about his age are everywhere in your posts and on the posts you've liked. You're entitled to your opinion as well, I am simply addressing it with what is actually happening in NHL with players of Miller's age and skill set. And as for your last question, he has literally said he wants to stay in Vancouver, I can provide the link to that quote to you as well if you'd like. 

Yeah sorry you lost all credibility with your last post lol move on.