[Trade] Canadiens trade Tyler Toffoli to Flames for Tyler Pitlick, Emil Heineman, 2022 1st-round pick, 2024 5th-round pick

[Warhippy]

1 minute ago, Angry Goose said:

I was doing some research on Schneider awhile back and some people project him to be a good bottom pairing defenseman.  Good all around player, not particularly a great skater, sturdy type of player etc.  Ive only seen some clips so I cant really project anything.  Dunno if he should be considered a center piece per se/I could be wrong.  

From what I understand he has a ceiling of Seabrook.  A great 1b defenceman so long as he's paired with or beside a yearly norris candidate.  Can put up 25-45 points in an average to good year but more importantly is 100% defensively responsible while his partner goes out and scores buckets.

 

While that sounds amazing and is.  It's more looking for the perfect partner for QH than it is that franchise 1 RHD

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, rekker said:

I definitely disagree on Rathbone being anywhere near Schneider in worth. 

But....

 

[Jester13]

2 minutes ago, rekker said:

I definitely disagree on Rathbone being anywhere near Schneider in worth. 

What makes you say Schneider is worth so much? Is he really that good of a prospect? I call him a prospect, btw, because he's just starting to stick in the NHL. I just get a sense that some fans think he's much better of a prospect than he actually is, simply because he's a RHDman that we're lacking. Do you watch him often? Where are these reports that he's a franchise cornerstone dman? Maybe I'm missing something, but let's not forget that we're talking about trading Miller, our top forward who plays in every situation. 

[Heretic]

Well that sucks - I like Toffoli - Now I have to cheer against him!

[MeanSeanBean]

25 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I wonder what people would pay for a 5'10" LHD prospect scoring at a PPG .  Or a 6'2" RHD that scored a PPG before moving in to a mens league and is now, while not scoring a top 4 on his team and arguably essential.  

 

These kids also have massive potential, one just turned 22 one is 18 still.

 

Can we not tag them as future cornerstone franchise players?  Both wildly outscored B. Schneider, both have potential....

 

But since they're named Rathbone and Myrenberg people will discount them in the same breath they elevate Schneider.  

 

I 100% agree with your statements and arguments good sir, they are grounded in common sense.

I mean, none of us in the grand scheme of things know diddly squat about players and their potential compared to NHL scouts. Schneider was ranked anywhere between 9-34 overall, while Myrenberg was ranked in the 3rd or 4th round (meaning him in the 5th might have been a pretty good deal).

 

I'm not saying that draft ranking is everything, since Rathbone is our best prospect right now, and he's a 4th rounder. But when you have been highly touted and coveted by people who do hockey for a living I feel like it's a safe bet to assume they have a better chance of being an impact player.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Shayster007

[BPA]

16 minutes ago, -SN- said:

[73 Percent]

Can't wait to read toffolis thesis about how he was born to be a flame.

[rekker]

27 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

What makes you say Schneider is worth so much? Is he really that good of a prospect? I call him a prospect, btw, because he's just starting to stick in the NHL. I just get a sense that some fans think he's much better of a prospect than he actually is, simply because he's a RHDman that we're lacking. Do you watch him often? Where are these reports that he's a franchise cornerstone dman? Maybe I'm missing something, but let's not forget that we're talking about trading Miller, our top forward who plays in every situation. 

You have to hope to get a player that can develop into a cornerstone, top four dman in the Miller trade. Your not going to get a for sure, already cornerstone dman. That's the thing. Just going by Schneiders stats, junior stats, AHL, various reports, he has that potential. Am I a scout? Of course not. Potential is what we are looking for in return for Miller. The better and more proven the potential the better. From reports he has looked great in his NHL games, has size. That's pretty good potential and by the way this team drafts dmen, I'd rather have Schneider than a pick.

Edited February 14, 2022 by rekker

[Jester13]

2 minutes ago, rekker said:

You have to hope to get a player that can develop into a cornerstone, top four dman in the Miller trade. Your not going to get a for sure, already cornerstone dman. That's the thing. Just going by Schneiders stats, junior stats, AHL, various reports, he has that potential. Am I a scout? Of course not. Potential is what we are lookind to for on return for Miller. The better and more proven the potential the better. From reports he has looked great in his NHL games, has size. That's pretty good potential and by the way this team drafts dmen, I'd rather have Schneider than a pick.

You don't think we could find a one-for-one trade of Miller for a top RHDman? I think we certainly could, but we're not going to because we want to get younger and picks, which is why Rangers would have to add to Schneider and a late 1st.

 

[rekker]

1 minute ago, Jester13 said:

You don't think we could find a one-for-one trade of Miller for a top RHDman? I think we certainly could, but we're not going to because we want to get younger and picks, which is why Rangers would have to add to Schneider and a late 1st.

 

To me, it's an age thing. We need some players that will be coming into there own in a two years. So a 26 year old, established dman doesn't fit in my opinion. 

[Jester13]

Just now, rekker said:

To me, it's an age thing. We need some players that will be coming into there own in a two years. So a 26 year old, established dman doesn't fit in my opinion. 

Exactly the point I made in the post you just quoted (although a one-for-one top rhd who is only 26 fits my bill, but I was thinking more of a similar age to Miller of 29/30, which I wouldn't do).

[Warhippy]

38 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

I mean, none of us in the grand scheme of things know diddly squat about players and their potential compared to NHL scouts. Schneider was ranked anywhere between 9-34 overall, while Myrenberg was ranked in the 3rd or 4th round (meaning him in the 5th might have been a pretty good deal).

 

I'm not saying that draft ranking is everything, since Rathbone is our best prospect right now, and he's a 4th rounder. But when you have been highly touted and coveted by people who do hockey for a living I feel like it's a safe bet to assume they have a better chance of being an impact player.

2014 NHL draft.  Tell me about that top 15 vs players 6 players alone outside of the top 2 rounds that have triple digit point totals.  2012?  2016?  Potential means diddly because all of these kids have that.  But lately the top 15 is as surefire as the bottom 15 in some years.  

 

Schneider is as sure of a thing right now as Myrenberg, Rathbone, Juolevi etc.  There's a point in time in which we need to drop the draft pedigree or draft ranking and just understand these are all kids with the exact possibility of succeeding as failing depending on how they translate at the NHL level.

[RWJC]

59 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

What makes you say Schneider is worth so much? Is he really that good of a prospect? I call him a prospect, btw, because he's just starting to stick in the NHL. I just get a sense that some fans think he's much better of a prospect than he actually is, simply because he's a RHDman that we're lacking. Do you watch him often? Where are these reports that he's a franchise cornerstone dman? Maybe I'm missing something, but let's not forget that we're talking about trading Miller, our top forward who plays in every situation. 

I agree with you.

People also (over)valuing him because he’s the prototype of what we need AND we finally have assets to shop for with.

that certainly increases the appetite. 

 

he hasn’t proven squat yet. 
he’s an infatuation/ideal with potential. 
but he fits the window, age demo, and most importantly, our most dominant roster need.  and, we need his cap relief, which also aligns with our upcoming contracts.  
 

 

[MeanSeanBean]

11 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

2014 NHL draft.  Tell me about that top 15 vs players 6 players alone outside of the top 2 rounds that have triple digit point totals.  2012?  2016?  Potential means diddly because all of these kids have that.  But lately the top 15 is as surefire as the bottom 15 in some years.  

 

Schneider is as sure of a thing right now as Myrenberg, Rathbone, Juolevi etc.  There's a point in time in which we need to drop the draft pedigree or draft ranking and just understand these are all kids with the exact possibility of succeeding as failing depending on how they translate at the NHL level.

Ok, just so I understand this straight. Is the point your making here is you believe that Myrenberg and Schneider have the same value?

[Nuxfanabroad]

Good think Marc "Bargain-bin" saddled the Habs with so many albatrosses. Sounds like they wanna dump more deals, but teams like the Rags & Vegans don't wanna splurge on their excessive $ & terms.

 

Philly, NYI..Buff..there are a lot of Eastern teams whose GM's(present, or kiboshed) spent like drunken sailors. It's a big feather in our cap!

[Provost]

If Eichel is scheduled to play Wednesday, so we see another trade by then to clear cap and then the cavalcade of moves start happening?

[Warhippy]

11 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

Ok, just so I understand this straight. Is the point your making here is you believe that Myrenberg and Schneider have the same value?

Intrinsic value yes.

 

When you post their numbers in their respective leagues what makes B. Schneider more valuable or to appear to have more "potential" than Myrenberg except draft status and age?  I know you don't get or won't get the point I am trying to make and that's fine.  But there's no reason people should assume or claim Rathbone somehow has less value or potential than Schneider while producing far more consistently.  That myrenberg and Schneider shouldn't have the same basic "potential" based on point totals and production.

 

Schneider could be as much a vintage Seabrook as he could be a Brad Stuart.  Nobody will ever be able to tell, not scouts or experts.  By the same metric Myrenberg could be the next Lidstrom as much as he could be the next Roszival.

With today's trade the value/bar has been set regarding Miller and Schneider should not be the centrepiece of that trade so much as he should be the addition or sweetener based on that application of thought.

 

For reference

 

https://thecanuckway.com/2021/09/18/canucks-fifth-round-pick-jonathan-myrenberg/

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Warhippy

[MeanSeanBean]

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Intrinsic value yes.

 

When you post their numbers in their respective leagues what makes B. Schneider more valuable or to appear to have more "potential" than Myrenberg except draft status and age?  I know you don't get or won't get the point I am trying to make and that's fine.  But there's no reason people should assume or claim Rathbone somehow has less value or potential than Schneider while producing far more consistently.  That myrenberg and Schneider shouldn't have the same basic "potential" based on point totals and production.

 

Schneider could be as much a vintage Seabrook as he could be a Brad Stuart.  Nobody will ever be able to tell, not scouts or experts.  By the same metric Myrenberg could be the next Lidstrom as much as he could be the next Roszival.

With today's trade the value/bar has been set regarding Miller and Schneider should not be the centrepiece of that trade so much as he should be the addition or sweetener based on that application of thought.

Yeah, I guess you're right. I don't, or won't, get the point you're trying to make. I think the statement that Schneider has more value than Rathbone is not only a completely logical and reasonable statement, but also entirely true. 

 

Yes, your middle paragraph is entirely true. But I think it's also a completely fair statement to say that Schneider has a much, much higher chance of being the next Seabrook then Myrenberg does of being the next Lindstrom.

[Warhippy]

3 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

Yeah, I guess you're right. I don't, or won't, get the point you're trying to make. I think the statement that Schneider has more value than Rathbone is not only a completely logical and reasonable statement, but also entirely true. 

 

Yes, your middle paragraph is entirely true. But I think it's also a completely fair statement to say that Schneider has a much, much higher chance of being the next Seabrook then Myrenberg does of being the next Lindstrom.

Remember Clendenning.

[Fanuck]

56 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

What makes you say Schneider is worth so much? Is he really that good of a prospect? I call him a prospect, btw, because he's just starting to stick in the NHL. I just get a sense that some fans think he's much better of a prospect than he actually is, simply because he's a RHDman that we're lacking. Do you watch him often? Where are these reports that he's a franchise cornerstone dman? Maybe I'm missing something, but let's not forget that we're talking about trading Miller, our top forward who plays in every situation. 

I understand the trepidation of overvaluing a player - especially a young player we do not see much of on the west coast.  I have been following Schneider since I saw him play live several times in the WHL and I could go on about this aspect of his game or that, but in the end my opinion can be as easily dismissed as the next guy who says he's going to be a career bottom pairing d-man.  There are media in NY who have been taken aback by Schneider's development and poise - one even compared him to Ryan McDonagh since that was the last time they saw a rookie defenceman in a Ranger's uniform with that skill-set and poise (McDonagh was both older and had more AHL experience under his belt at that time as well).  One thing that I note is that Schnieder has played a lot of minutes in the games he got recently and his TOI/gp has risen steadily as he gets more games - you don't play rookie defenceman on a contending team a lot in the NHL unless they are doing things right, a lot of things.  Further to this, the Rangers coaching staff gave him some limited minutes at first, but when injuries hit what surprised a lot of people was how seamlessly Schneider adapted and flourished after having his ice time increase and being exposed to different game situations.   Does this mean he'll be a star, no - but as I pointed out in an earlier thread if you break down the numbers the only true rookie defenceman his own age that are playing more minutes in more situations/game than Schneider are Seider and Drysdale - to me that says a lot about both where Schneider is now in his development curve and where he might be in 2-3 years when he's not even close to being in his prime. 

 

I'd concede, there no guarantees, but everything points to Schneider being at the very least, a #2 defenceman in the NHL capable of logging high minutes in any situation while bringing a heavy physical presence to defensive zone coverage.  This team does not presently have any prospect like this at the moment (I don't classify JR as this type of prospect as he lacks the physicality/physical presence of a Schneider) and in my view this type of asset (Schneider or someone like him) is a grossly undervalued piece of any contending team's core player group.  Combine that with the fact he's still on year 1 of his ELC and he's already playing upwards of 20min/night on a contending team makes me feel confident of what he can fully develop into.