[PGT] St. Louis Blues at Vancouver Canucks | Mar. 30, 2022

[Elias Pettersson]

7 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

no not really at least not a massive upgrade you are getting rid of a LHD and replacing with a RHD so who's going to fill the LHD? Dermott? Burrogh? or your solution is spend even more on the defense that's already top 3 most expensive?

Marino is only 24 so at least he fits with the core and his contract will take him through his prime years so no worries about having to buy him out.  You can replace OEL via a Boeser or Garland trade and it also makes room for Rathbone to be able to step in the next year or two.  It's alot easier to find LHD than RHD so Marino fills a difficult hole to find.

[Elias Pettersson]

53 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Yeah, why take a D in the mid first and possibly end up with a bust like McAvoy or a K'andre Miller....?

The 2nd round is where you can usually pick up a good Dman.  Norris trophy winners were picked in the 2nd round.  Unfortunately we don't have a 2nd round pick this year.  Perhaps Allvin will pick one up prior to the draft.

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The 2nd round is where you can usually pick up a good Dman.  Norris trophy winners were picked in the 2nd round.  Unfortunately we don't have a 2nd round pick this year.  Perhaps Allvin will pick one up prior to the draft.

Sure, some quality D come out of the second round. But that's largely luck/guys who were late bloomers. That's not something you bank on.

 

Plenty of good D (likely more) come out of the 1st round as well. Like Hedman or Ekblad or Hughes or, Makar, or McAvoy or Miller etc, etc, etc.

 

Not drafting D in the first round is silly. It's probably also why we only have one blue chip, top D under 25 .

[Canuckfanforlife82]

22 hours ago, IBatch said:

Take 80% of the league and you can go through their lineup and say similar things about the players on their teams as well.    6.25 is what Booth and Ballard were like back in 2011.    Cap has gone up.   

22 hours ago, IBatch said:

Take 80% of the league and you can go through their lineup and say similar things about the players on their teams as well.    6.25 is what Booth and Ballard were like back in 2011.    Cap has gone up.    

Yes but you need to have value coming from those contracts and with OEL and Myers we aren’t getting that. They are getting way too much. You can’t make mistakes and overplay players in a cap world.

[Nucker 67]

2 hours ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Worried too cause Pitsburghs' drafting record under JR, Allvin and Clancy were atrocious - atleast, hit on something past the 1st round (Pitsburgh traded there 1st, in most years under JR to support the Crosby core).  Fingers crossed that the crew, that JR has assembled will perform better when it comes to drafting & developement.

It's tough to draft a stud prospect when you get in (and are a contender) in the playoffs every year. If JR had the #5 or #7 etc., I'm sure he would've drafted some really good players. Benning just looks like a smarty because he drafted high every year. Easy pickins

[Gawdzukes]

11 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

please point me to a team that won the cup in recent years that have more than 1mil in dead cap? or dead cap period? the only team was pittsburgh for 1 year at a little above 1mil.. you don't compete for a cup by gimping yourself against competition by wasting dead cap on players. cup contender utilize every ounce of their cap whether it's depth or whatever.. that's why we continually suck coz we have bad contracts and dead cap wasted every single year...

 

look at the contenders this year? the only team to the exception is rangers coz they are full of ELC that are performing above expectation and florida with all their player playing out of their minds.. everyone else? 1.5 or below.. we are sitting near the top of the league every year in dead cap and u wonder why we suck or have no depth wouldn't it be nice to have a 5mil 3c instead of dickinson? or a 6mil top 6 forward instead of a pearson? 

And here we are pushing to sign another big one which could have huge dead cap for many many years. More of the same and I don't think it will work now either. We have a fanbase that thinks with their hearts and not their heads. Yes it sure would be nice to target an impact player when the team needs a change, replacement, or growth instead of hoping some $3m journeyman catches fire. When you think about it we've been a cap team (broke) since 2010 haven't we?

 

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Yeah, why take a D in the mid first and possibly end up with a bust like McAvoy or a K'andre Miller....?

 

1 hour ago, stawns said:

Of course there's hits, many of them.  But many many more misses.  I just prefer to take a F in the first round.

Good morning aGENT and stawns. Any players you're looking at in the 12-14 range this year?

Edited April 1, 2022 by Gawdzukes

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

And here we are pushing to sign another big one which could have huge dead cap for many many years. More of the same and I don't think it will work now either. We have a fanbase that thinks with their hearts and not their heads. Yes it sure would be nice to target an impact player when the team needs a change, replacement, or growth instead of hoping some $3m journeyman catches fire. When you think about it we've been a cap team (broke) since 2010 haven't we?

 

 

Good morning aGENT and stawns. Any players you're looking at in the 12-14 range this year?

I like Lambert, always have.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[mll]

12 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

is minnesota having cap issues in the coming years?? sure looks like it? please point me to a team 

 

please point me to a team that won the cup in recent years that have more than 1mil in dead cap? or dead cap period? the only team was pittsburgh for 1 year at a little above 1mil.. you don't compete for a cup by gimping yourself against competition by wasting dead cap on players. cup contender utilize every ounce of their cap whether it's depth or whatever.. that's why we continually suck coz we have bad contracts and dead cap wasted every single year...

 

look at the contenders this year? the only team to the exception is rangers coz they are full of ELC that are performing above expectation and florida with all their player playing out of their minds.. everyone else? 1.5 or below.. we are sitting near the top of the league every year in dead cap and u wonder why we suck or have no depth wouldn't it be nice to have a 5mil 3c instead of dickinson? or a 6mil top 6 forward instead of a pearson? 

Tampa in 2020.

They won with Mike Condon buried in the minors at a 1.3M residual cap hit - he was never recalled to the team. To avoid LTIR, Brisebois traded Callahan's 5.8M LTIR contract for Condon (2.4M cap hit).

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by mll

[Elias Pettersson]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Sure, some quality D come out of the second round. But that's largely luck/guys who were late bloomers. That's not something you bank on.

 

Plenty of good D (likely more) come out of the 1st round as well. Like Hedman or Ekblad or Hughes or, Makar, or McAvoy or Miller etc, etc, etc.

 

Not drafting D in the first round is silly. It's probably also why we only have one blue chip, top D under 25 .

The mantra for the first round is to take the best player available. If it’s a forward then that’s who you go with. Unless you want Allvin to go off the board like Benning did with the Juolevi pick. How exactly did that turn out for us?  
 

Those Dmen you mentioned most of them are top 10 picks. Guys like Weber, Subban, Keith, Carlo are all 2nd round picks.  You can find stud defencemen in the second round. 
 

Not drafting D in the first round is the result of us having top 10 picks for the most part since Benning took over. And he went with the best player available in most cases. Hughes came out of that situation. And as I mentioned the one time Benning went off the board in the first round to grab a Dman it turned into a disaster. 

[wildwood12]

4 hours ago, JM_ said:

BPA is a bit of a moving target, but clearly picking Patrick over Heiskanen and Makar e.g. was a huge blunder. Maybe Philly had that same 'never take a d' idea. 

Bobby Clarke publicly trashed their former GM Hextall for taking Nolan Patrick. He said their scouts wanted Makar. But Hextall took it on himself to take Patrick. Bobby Clarke is quite bitter about it still.

[Harold Drunken]

57 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The mantra for the first round is to take the best player available. If it’s a forward then that’s who you go with. Unless you want Allvin to go off the board like Benning did with the Juolevi pick. How exactly did that turn out for us?  
 

Those Dmen you mentioned most of them are top 10 picks. Guys like Weber, Subban, Keith, Carlo are all 2nd round picks.  You can find stud defencemen in the second round. 
 

Not drafting D in the first round is the result of us having top 10 picks for the most part since Benning took over. And he went with the best player available in most cases. Hughes came out of that situation. And as I mentioned the one time Benning went off the board in the first round to grab a Dman it turned into a disaster. 

Juolevi was not an off the board pick, he was ranked top 6 on many draft rankings. The talk all summer that year was they were taking a defenseman, they took the best D available according to many. Just because Juolevi didn't work out doesn't mean he was an off the board pick, he was chosen right where most thought he would go which was top 10 and top 5 to some. I didn't like the pick either because I'm 100% with you, you take the top player available which was probably Tkachuk but the mistake they made was drafting for need which was D, they took the best D available and it bit them.

 

Puljujarvi could have dropped to us and if we picked him at the time it would have been considered the steal of the draft because he would have been the best available by far.....moral of the story the draft is a roll of the dice in so many ways and you really don't know exactly what you're getting until down the road.

 

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2016-draft/nhl-draft-rankings/

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Harold Drunken

[N4ZZY]

6 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yes should be a little of both ideally.    Garland or Brock i suspect will get traded.    And if we keep Brock, good odds he's going to arbitration if he doesn't like the fair deal he's going to get...should be something like Millers last deal ...plus maybe a little for inflation, but not much. 

I mean, if Brock’s serious about wanting to remain in blue and green, then he’ll put his foot where his mouth is. 

 

Is he worth 7.5M long term? 

 

[N4ZZY]

7 minutes ago, Harold Drunken said:

Juolevi was not an off the board pick, he was ranked top 6 on many draft rankings. The talk all summer that year was they were taking a defenseman, they took the best D available according o many. Just because Juolevi didn't work out doesn't mean he was an off the board pick, he was chosen right where most thought he would go which was top 10 and top 5 to some. I didn't like the pick either because I'm 100% with you, you take the top player available which was probably Tkachuk but the mistake they made was drafting for need which was D, they took the best D available and it bit them.

 

Puljujarvi could have dropped to us and if we picked him at the time it would have been considered the steal of the draft because he would have been the best available.....moral of the story the draft is a roll of the dice in so many ways and you really don't know exactly what you're getting until down the road.

 

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2016-draft/nhl-draft-rankings/

 

I think when it comes to first round selection, you pick BPA always always always. You can always trade talent for position, but if you draft by position over talent, then you lose out, which we did. Juolevi was a need in the organization, but because he didn’t work/pan out, there was no value for him in a trade. If we had drafted Tkachuk, but then didn’t need or want him, we could have gotten quite a haul for the young man, even some defenseman. That’s why it’s so dangerous to draft for need, over skill and talent. At the end of the day, the most talented player with the most skill at the position wins out. 

 

 

[Harold Drunken]

12 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Would John Marino be an upgrade?  He only costs $4.4 million.  I think JR can live with the extra $800k cap hit...

Yeah of course, Marino is on a good long term contract and he's younger. However if you had to sign him in free agency if we cost a lot more, hence why it would be tough to pry him from Pittsburgh. An above average 24 year old D on an economical long term deal would cost ALOT.  Statistically you're comparing apples to apples, Marino has 4 more points, OEL is a + player it's kind of a trade off. 

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Gawdzukes said:

And here we are pushing to sign another big one which could have huge dead cap for many many years. More of the same and I don't think it will work now either. We have a fanbase that thinks with their hearts and not their heads. Yes it sure would be nice to target an impact player when the team needs a change, replacement, or growth instead of hoping some $3m journeyman catches fire. When you think about it we've been a cap team (broke) since 2010 haven't we?

 

 

Good morning aGENT and stawns. Any players you're looking at in the 12-14 range this year?

Honestly haven't had much time to look at the draft this year. I know when Jiricek was ranked in the 12 -15 range (where we're likely picking), I was excited about him. Unfortunately, he's probably played himself in to top 5-10 range 

[Harold Drunken]

8 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

I think when it comes to first round selection, you pick BPA always always always. You can always trade talent for position, but if you draft by position over talent, then you lose out, which we did. Juolevi was a need in the organization, but because he didn’t work/pan out, there was no value for him in a trade. If we had drafted Tkachuk, but then didn’t need or want him, we could have gotten quite a haul for the young man, even some defenseman. That’s why it’s so dangerous to draft for need, over skill and talent. At the end of the day, the most talented player with the most skill at the position wins out. 

 

 

100%, if you draft for need you're much more likely to reach and overlook. If you're lucky, the BPA is a need as well. I just don't understand how to label Juolevi a reach, I get he was a bust but he was a grade A highly ranked prospect- like many other top 10 D that didn't' pan out...that's the draft, if they all worked out being a GM would be a little less stressful....you're selecting teenagers.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Harold Drunken

[aGENT]

6 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The mantra for the first round is to take the best player available. If it’s a forward then that’s who you go with. Unless you want Allvin to go off the board like Benning did with the Juolevi pick. How exactly did that turn out for us?  
 

Those Dmen you mentioned most of them are top 10 picks. Guys like Weber, Subban, Keith, Carlo are all 2nd round picks.  You can find stud defencemen in the second round. 
 

Not drafting D in the first round is the result of us having top 10 picks for the most part since Benning took over. And he went with the best player available in most cases. Hughes came out of that situation. And as I mentioned the one time Benning went off the board in the first round to grab a Dman it turned into a disaster. 

Juolevi wasn't off the board. He was the highest ranked D of the draft and right on par with Tkachuk in the rankings. $&!# happens. Players don't develop, have injury issues etc.

 

Good for those 2nd round picks. Again, those guys were largely luck/late bloomers with as big of a bust risk as their upside. That's WHY they fell to the 2nd round instead of going on the first. If they didn't have question marks, they'd have gone in the first. Newsflash, the draft can be a major crap shoot, regardless of your scouting.

 

There's zero reason to be scared to draft D in the first. It's a silly sentiment. As is the idea that any D you take in the second is a solid chance to be a Norris candidate. That's just goofy logic.

 

Most of them weren't top 10 picks. Nor was Chychrun, who half this board wants us to trade for.

Edited April 2, 2022 by aGENT

[wai_lai416]

3 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Marino is only 24 so at least he fits with the core and his contract will take him through his prime years so no worries about having to buy him out.  You can replace OEL via a Boeser or Garland trade and it also makes room for Rathbone to be able to step in the next year or two.  It's alot easier to find LHD than RHD so Marino fills a difficult hole to find.

great you get rid of OEL at 50% add marino and have extra 800k what we pay now. on top of having to find another top 4 defenseman LHD. so likely that would put us at the most expensive defense unit in the league along with the dead cap so how does it solve anything? myers will prolly be gone and i doubt you are replacing 2 top 4 LHD for 6mil.. i'm not even sure why people are obsess with making room for rathbone and expect him to step in etc. canucks defense is already small enough and soft enough.. so instead of having 1 pair Hughes + whoever we have 2 tiny pairings that'll get run over by bigger teams. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Harold Drunken said:

Juolevi was not an off the board pick, he was ranked top 6 on many draft rankings. The talk all summer that year was they were taking a defenseman, they took the best D available according to many. Just because Juolevi didn't work out doesn't mean he was an off the board pick, he was chosen right where most thought he would go which was top 10 and top 5 to some. I didn't like the pick either because I'm 100% with you, you take the top player available which was probably Tkachuk but the mistake they made was drafting for need which was D, they took the best D available and it bit them.

 

Puljujarvi could have dropped to us and if we picked him at the time it would have been considered the steal of the draft because he would have been the best available by far.....moral of the story the draft is a roll of the dice in so many ways and you really don't know exactly what you're getting until down the road.

 

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2016-draft/nhl-draft-rankings/

 

No he was was not ranked 6th on "many drafts".   Before the world juniors quite a few didn't even have him as a first rounder.    Some still didn't.   What he was considered by a few - was a 9-12 th pick.   We absolutely went off board with MT slipping.   He was someone who wasn't even supposed to be available at 5.    Sure maybe you can find a few that had him in the top 10, but just as many didn't.      He was considered the safest D available with the highest floor in the first round.   A year before that Chychrun  was considered a top 1-2 pick...OJ wasn't even on anyones radar really.    World Juniors.   Really messed with that draft a lot.   Also the "talk" that summer was we were picking a C.   And it was basically exactly virbatim - that it would be PLD.   "Big nasty C".   Almost no mention of a D.   Why?  Because well they weren't any in the top five to consider.   Barely the top ten either. 

 

ISS had OJ at 11...THN at 9.  

Edited April 1, 2022 by IBatch