Tank Hard for Bedard - Playoff chances are already Slim

[NHL97OneTimer]

1 hour ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Allvin doesn't seem to have the creativity & balls to make such a move and/or he has his hands tied cause he has one more year left on his deal.

 

4 more years of the OEL show or LE 2.0 - ugh !   OEL and LE = 12 years of wasted money 

I would love to see OEL's contract disappear for a rebuild but OEL is not in the same category as LE by any means.  OEL still provides some service.  Not worth the salary, but at least he's serviceable.  LE  was truly liquid gold down the drain.

[Warhippy]

Let's speak of the ducks and Sharks.

 

Both teams are currently or potentially worse than us in the standings.  But, unlike us.  Both teams have engaged in multi year sell offs of assets and have signalled this year that their entire rosters by and large are available for the right price.

 

Ducks have 5 picks in the first 3 round this year and Sharks have 3 currently.  In the last 2 drafts the ducks have drafted 8 times in the first 3 rounds with three 1st, three 2nd and two 3rd round picks.  The sharks have drafted drafted 6 times with two 1sts, two 2nds and two 3rds.  The sharks are currently only better than the Ducks based on the play of Karlsson.  If he dips or gets injured it's a two horse race to last place.  Without mentioning of course the Yotes who could fall apart at any time.

 

I do not mention Columbus or St Louis as being worse than us because they are in fact better faster harder teams than us and have played less games.  They both also have more cap space and assets to fix their issues.

 

In comparison, the Canucks have drafted 3 times in the first 3 rounds of the last two drafts and in fact 4 times only in the last 3 total drafts.  We've no real assets to speak of and have a management team that has stated they are in fact ready to compete now and don't think this team is as bad as they appear.  This suggests the potential trade of yet more picks and remaining prospects.  We currently hold our first 3 draft picks this year but that could change at any time.

 

We are in a position to tank as hard as we want with some smooth trades.  We could in fact be as bad as the Sharks, Ducks, Yotes.  But without a strong motion and push by Management to actually achieve that; we're not going to see anything but a push for the middle again.  

 

So the dream of Bedard is just that.  Next year for Cellibrini, just that.  Unless we actually have an owner and management team that admits it's just not good enough we're not going anywhere and Bedard/Fantilli are more likely than not going to end up in our division forcing us to face off against McDavid, Bedard and Fantilli for the next decade 5+ times a year while we pretend that if we can trade an underperforming player for an underperforming player with more term we can magically compete

[Warhippy]

21 hours ago, goalie13 said:

It amazes me that people think the Canucks would actually win the draft lottery.

Canuck luck is winning the lottery for local boy  superstar prospect who then alex daigles his way out of the league in 5 years

[Warhippy]

20 hours ago, Shayster007 said:

Huh... Me too... Make it so?

lame 

 

 

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, -AJ- said:

Thought I'd throw this in here since it's relevant to this discussion.

 

For us to get to 99 points, which would almost guarantee we made the playoffs (the bar is probably a few points lower than this), we would need a .667 point percentage for the remainder of the year. The odds of us doing so well are indeed exceedingly low. Even a very hot finish like we did last year wouldn't be enough.

 

I'm not on board for our players to give up, but something seems broken, so I would be okay if management made some decision--whether that's dealing with coaching or making trades.

We had a .677 winning percentage in 2011/2012 when we won our 2nd consecutive president's trophy.

 

Are we as good as that team?

[ShawnAntoski]

41 minutes ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

I would love to see OEL's contract disappear for a rebuild but OEL is not in the same category as LE by any means.  OEL still provides some service.  Not worth the salary, but at least he's serviceable.  LE  was truly liquid gold down the drain.

Imo, the OEL trade was just an extension of the LE gambe/mismanagement.  Plus, i really don't see OEL, aging well in this roster cause he is one of the highest paid but he is also one of the D corps, biggest liability.  Of course, I understand who he is paired with and the defensive scheme matters, but he along with Myers are a clown show when being pressured.  Sadly, we can both agree, he is overpaid and 4 more years to go.

 

Plus, I wonder if there was any credence to the rumour that the Twins vouched for him and as per JB, they insisted on adding a 2nd to close out the deal ?  

Edited November 14, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[alt kilgore]

We are caught in a no mans land. 

After years and years of doubling down on a mistake, then compounded by the new GM doubling down again, it makes it near impossible to do anything.  We have some players, our most highly paid, in or entering their prime years + a lot of dead weight contracts that are not living up to their contracts but top up our cap, + bare cupboards on the farm.

 

JB and JR have set up the team to have to ride it out for awhile.  A proper rebuild would have been ideal in 2014 or 2015, with aging but tradable useful veterans.  (yes some had NMC and NTC but a creative GM would know how to convince them to move on especially when its clear the team is going younger).   Next would have been just before signing LE and Gagner and Gudbranson in 2016.  Next before JB traded yet another first round pick away for Miller. A decent trade on paper, but the wrong time for a team no where close to contention. Next would have been before JB dumped Beagle, LE, and Rousell with only one year left to get through, in exchange for taking on another albatros contract in OEL.

And the next would have been at JR's first TD where we can only take his word that the offers for Miller and others were too low to accept. And before signing Miller, and re-signing Boeser. Most recently trading away another second round pick for Stillman (when a cheaper Burroughs was clearly playing fine)

 

Each time management made these short sighted decisions devalued the team, prospect pool, and players worth more and more.  So yes, theoretically, we can start a rebuild any time.  But at present we have this Frankenstein team, overloaded in some areas and sorely underwhelming in other parts. With no wriggle room in either cap space or prospect depth. Which is why we'd get a terrible return right now, and that would make us be one of those organizations that take a very very long time to be able to actually build a new contending team.  And we probably will be saying bye to Petey and watch him play his best years in his later prime, on another team.

 

Which is why for now, I think we must run with this core this season, at least up to the TD, and decide then. And open to trade during the season, if the return will bring us any valuable futures. I know we are all miserable at Canucks blowing leads and losing right now.  But a part of me thinks that they can work their way out of this funk. Including Demko. Its just not the right time now for a full scale tear down.  Too much investment, right or wrong, in this present core to give up yet.  Even if this season is a write off.  If this team is proven to be unfixable by the TD,  then by all means. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

6 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Imo, the OEL trade was just an extension of the LE gambe/mismanagement.  Plus, i really don't see OEL, aging well in this roster cause he is one of the highest paid but he is also one of the D corps, biggest liability.  Of course, I understand who he is paired with and the defensive scheme matters, but he along with Myers are a clown show when being pressured.  Sadly, we can both agree, he is overpaid and 4 more years to go.

 

Plus, I wonder if there was any credence to the rumour that the Twins vouched for him and as per JB, they insisted on adding a 2nd to close out the deal ?  

JB was wanting OEL *before* the Sedins "joined management" (I believe he tried getting him the previous year)

Edited November 14, 2022 by NewbieCanuckFan

[ShawnAntoski]

1 minute ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

JB was wanting OEL *before* the Sedins "joined management" (I believe he tried getting him the previous year)

I heard that too but the Sedins influenced seems to had helped him close the deal.

[ShawnAntoski]

5 minutes ago, kilgore said:

We are caught in a no mans land. 

After years and years of doubling down on a mistake, then compounded by the new GM doubling down again, it makes it near impossible to do anything.  We have some players, our most highly paid, in or entering their prime years + a lot of dead weight contracts that are not living up to their contracts but top up our cap, + bare cupboards on the farm.

 

JB and JR have set up the team to have to ride it out for awhile.  A proper rebuild would have been ideal in 2014 or 2015, with aging but tradable useful veterans.  (yes some had NMC and NTC but a creative GM would know how to convince them to move on especially when its clear the team is going younger).   Next would have been just before signing LE and Gagner and Gudbranson in 2016.  Next before JB traded yet another first round pick away for Miller. A decent trade on paper, but the wrong time for a team no where close to contention. Next would have been before JB dumped Beagle, LE, and Rousell with only one year left to get through, in exchange for taking on another albatros contract in OEL.

And the next would have been at JR's first TD where we can only take his word that the offers for Miller and others were too low to accept. And before signing Miller, and re-signing Boeser. Most recently trading away another second round pick for Stillman (when a cheaper Burroughs was clearly playing fine)

 

Each time management made these short sighted decisions devalued the team, prospect pool, and players worth more and more.  So yes, theoretically, we can start a rebuild any time.  But at present we have this Frankenstein team, overloaded in some areas and sorely underwhelming in other parts. With no wriggle room in either cap space or prospect depth. Which is why we'd get a terrible return right now, and that would make us be one of those organizations that take a very very long time to be able to actually build a new contending team.  And we probably will be saying bye to Petey and watch him play his best years in his later prime, on another team.

 

Which is why for now, I think we must run with this core this season, at least up to the TD, and decide then. And open to trade during the season, if the return will bring us any valuable futures. I know we are all miserable at Canucks blowing leads and losing right now.  But a part of me thinks that they can work their way out of this funk. Including Demko. Its just not the right time now for a full scale tear down.  Too much investment, right or wrong, in this present core to give up yet.  Even if this season is a write off.  If this team is proven to be unfixable by the TD,  then by all means. 

No man's land = NHL Purgatory.  I dare the FO, to double down and be Aquamans' next scapegoat

[-AJ-]

31 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

We had a .677 winning percentage in 2011/2012 when we won our 2nd consecutive president's trophy.

 

Are we as good as that team?

Yeah, it's weird--I feel the same as last year with Green. On paper, I feel like our team is good (though maybe not .650+ good), but for whatever reason, we're seriously underperforming. Do we blame it on poor coaching again or do we determine that the common denominator is the players? It's a tough situation to figure out.

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Yeah, it's weird--I feel the same as last year with Green. On paper, I feel like our team is good (though maybe not .650+ good), but for whatever reason, we're seriously underperforming. Do we blame it on poor coaching again or do we determine that the common denominator is the players? It's a tough situation to figure out.

Is it that tough? Seems you figured it out there....

[MeanSeanBean]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Is it that tough? Seems you figured it out there....

Just gonna say. Multiple coaches with the same results. Something is fundamentally wrong with this team. I fully believe there is a combination of these guys that will.ve an elite team. That's why I push a rebuild so hard. I don't want to see that talent wasted away..

[Warhippy]

13 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Yeah, it's weird--I feel the same as last year with Green. On paper, I feel like our team is good (though maybe not .650+ good), but for whatever reason, we're seriously underperforming. Do we blame it on poor coaching again or do we determine that the common denominator is the players? It's a tough situation to figure out.

If we go with the premise of our core being together for years.

 

It would be Miller, Pettersson, Horvat, Boeser, Hughes, Pearson and Myers.

 

Pearson since 18/19

Boeser since 16/17

Horvat since 14/15

Myers since 19/20

Miller since 19/20

Hughes since 18/19

Pettersson since 18/19

 

essentially Myers/Miller are our shortest tenured players.  But that's our core.  Our top LHD/RHD.  First and 2nd line centers.  top wingers.

 

For a minimum of 4 seasons.  This is our core and in that time barring a covid related super run in a random time we've finished 23rd, 17th, 24th, 18th in the league.

 

Bottom line, in the now 4 season + we've had this core together we've actually not progressed at all.  Inarguable.  We've seen the Devils rebuild in that period of time, the Rangers did it.  Florida.  We actually have a record that is I believe 6th worst in the entire league over the last 5 years including the Kraken.   So ya, it's not coaching.  

Edited November 14, 2022 by Warhippy

[Jester13]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

I thought he was the best fwd last night

Is that saying much? Also, it's one game. He's struggled mightily all last year and again this year. I, personally, don't see him getting back to his rookie form. He's also another small forward we don't need. Garland brings way more to the table. 

[stawns]

7 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Is that saying much? Also, it's one game. He's struggled mightily all last year and again this year. I, personally, don't see him getting back to his rookie form. He's also another small forward we don't need. Garland brings way more to the table. 

I think he's been solid all year........if he keeps getting to play with scoring fwds, he'll put up the points.  Hopefully the jettison off some of the older players taking up those mins and he'll get his chance.  To me, he's part of the core you build around

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

We had a .677 winning percentage in 2011/2012 when we won our 2nd consecutive president's trophy.

 

Are we as good as that team?

And before people point to the first round early exit that season & like to remind them that was also the season that turd Duncan Keith gave an elbow to the head of Daniel Sedin near the end of the regular season (he ended up only playing 2 of the 5 games that series & probably wasn't 100%).  Not saying we would've beat the Cup winning Kings that year with a healthy Daniel Sedin; but I'd argue they would've put up far more of a fight.

[aGENT]

26 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

Just gonna say. Multiple coaches with the same results. Something is fundamentally wrong with this team. I fully believe there is a combination of these guys that will.ve an elite team. That's why I push a rebuild so hard. I don't want to see that talent wasted away..

Yeah, I by no means want to throw babies out with bathwater here. But management needs to figure out which guys we can win with, real quick. Then start moving our whoever doesn't fall in that category.

 

And they best start being more pragmatic about which of those guys will still be those guys when we are more competitive. They missed that part this summer.

[-AJ-]

33 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Is it that tough? Seems you figured it out there....

It's possible, but it's also possible that we got two coaches in a row that aren't doing things properly. I suppose the conclusions one will reach will be determined by what one thinks is more likely. Given that the team has started horribly with two different coaches now, that could point to something about the players as more likely being the cause.

 

It may be that my read of the "on paper" team might just be totally off and in fact, they just aren't very good, and it's not a coaching issue. Do our forwards suck at playing defense and thus we need to change it up there? Is our defense just way too thin and we need to focus there? Is Demko a bad goalie now from whom we should move on? It does seem clear that defense is the issue, but even there, that can be the fault of forwards, defensemen, or goaltending or any combination of those three.

 

It's hard for me to accept the fact that our core isn't good, but at some point, I can't argue with the results--unless, again, coaching is causing the team to underperform, though given two consecutive coaches with the same results, it might point more likely to the players.

[Jester13]

6 minutes ago, stawns said:

I think he's been solid all year........if he keeps getting to play with scoring fwds, he'll put up the points.  Hopefully the jettison off some of the older players taking up those mins and he'll get his chance.  To me, he's part of the core you build around

I mean, he's definitely not top of my list of guys to move, but I disagree that he's part of the core to build around and I wouldn't be sad to see him go. Having said this, I also wouldn't be sad to give him more chances and move many others before him.