[Proposal] Horvat or Miller off to Long Island

[Coconuts]

Rumours and speculation have been whirling around this team for a while now and that likely isn't going to stop any time soon, particularly if they continue to lose more than they win. Sharks in the water, vultures overhead, teams seeing a team that's struggling and near the bottom of the league despite being perfectly capped out to begin the season. Take your pick. 

 

One team that's consistently been mentioned since a deal that may or may not have fallen through at the draft is the New York Islanders. They've off to a solid start and hold the third divisional spot going into tonight's game with an 11-7 record. As you'd expect, the defensive effort that had them as a playoff regular prior to last season is present and they're 5th in goals allowed, averaging only 2.67 goals a game. Their PK is 4th. They're a solid faceoff team, coming in at 13th with a 50.9 average. Their goal scoring is pretty good, they sit 12th in the league, but their powerplay however is more middle of the road, sitting at 17th. 

 

With Mathew Barzal leading the team with 19 points, all assists, in 18 games and Brock Nelson having 9 goals and 9 assists for 18 points in 18 games they're not hurting down the middle. The wing though, that's where they could use a boost. Enter Bo Horvat or JT Miller, either could play wing, and Horvat could even potentially bump someone to the wing. If you look at the Isles current scoring from the wing it leaves something to be desired outside of Anders Lee' 17 points. https://www.capfriendly.com/depth-charts/islanders

 

Outside of a few youngsters in Dobson, Romanov, and Wahlstrom the Isles are largely prime aged or leaning towards their early 30's. This is a team that should realistically be going for it sooner than later if they're going to go for it at all. Miller or Horvat help them do that. 

 

There's also speculation as to whether Horvat could be the piece. https://nyihockeynow.com/new-york-islanders-bo-hovat-vancouver-canucks-trade-rumors-lamoriello-alvvin/

 

And the fact that Josh Bailey has largely disappointed thus far this season. 

The Isles have 3.6M in cap space right now but more than likely we'd need to eat cap in any deal. Bailey seems like the likely candidate, and that's fine as he's only got one season remaining on his deal after this one. 

 

Bailey comes in at 5M, him and additional assets for Horvat would be a fairly straightforward swap. Miller could be had too, Bailey's 5M would eat up most of Miller's extension this year and their cap this year is quite close. The Isles would have to do a bit of shuffling to fit the rest of Miller's extension or a Horvat extension in but I reckon a savvy GM like Lou could figure that out. 

 

So Horvat for Bailey+ or Miller for Bailey+. That'd be the beginning of quite a shakeup, or a Miller trade could facilitate a Horvat extension. Either way, it'd free up cap space sooner than later given Bailey's short term contract while bringing back assets. 

 

But who do the Isles have to give? Well I'll tell you one thing, it ain't Dobson, you're dreaming if you think they're moving him. Full stop. Over the last 5-6 seasons the Isles have repeatedly demonstrated their willingness to move 1st round picks, they have their 1st over the next three years. That's more than likely on the table. Same can be said of their 2nd round picks. Simon Holmstrom (23OA 2019, right wing) could be of interest, as could Aatu Raty (52nd OA 2021, center), and Calle Odelius (65OA 2022, LD), and Samuel Bolduc (57OA 2019, 6'4" LD). Hell, maybe you manage to pry Wahlstrom (11OA 2018) away, hard to say what the interest might be there though from both sides. 

 

It's unlikely we'd get someone significant off their roster, but if the Isles are interested in either Horvat or Miller it's to try and take a step towards contention, they won't want to create holes on their roster. But if the idea is for the Canucks to reset things, retool, or rebuild, than picks, prospects, and cap space sooner than later probably does just fine. 

 

Maybe there's better trading partners, maybe there are better deals available at x time, but we don't know that right now. But if the season continues largely how it has the speculation and rumours surrounding our players is only going to intensify as time goes on. Maybe something happens with the Isles. 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Coconuts

[Odd.]

Miller for Bailey, 2023 1st, Wahlstrom, and Bolduc.

[Nucker 67]

I just hope Allvin doesn't get schooled by Lamoriello. 

 

Horvat is a primo centreman, and taking back a late 1st (pick 20+) and some scraps would be unacceptable. The Canucks need a Top 4RD. Certainly not Josh Bailey.

 

Dobson or Mayfield have to be included in the return, otherwise why make the deal with the Islanders? 

[Angry Goose]

As an aside there was talk about a Boeser / Beauvillier swap as well

[Coconuts]

4 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Miller for Bailey, 2023 1st, Wahlstrom, and Bolduc.

Ahh shit, how did I miss Bolduc? He's a big dude at 6'4" and was drafted 57OA 2019.

 

I'd do it, part of it would be the cost of dumping Bailey. 

 

Just now, NUCKER67 said:

I just hope Allvin doesn't get schooled by Lamoriello. 

 

Horvat is a primo centreman, and taking back a late 1st (pick 20+) and some scraps would be unacceptable. The Canucks need a Top 4RD. Certainly not Josh Bailey.

 

Dobson or Mayfield have to be included in the return, otherwise why make the deal with the Islanders? 

You ain't getting Dobson. Would you trade a Dobson? I'd rather have a Dobson than a Hughes. Big, offensively dynamic, defensively responsible, 22, RD, top pairing. You don't trade those guys.

 

Maybe you pry Mayfield out if you send them say.. Schenn. Picks and prospects aren't scraps. NYI has some good prospects, we could use good prospects. And people keep telling me there should be D available later in the 1st round but I couldn't tell you for sure. Even if it's a mid to late 1st we'd still get a good prospect out of it.

 

Just now, Angry Goose said:

As an aside there was talk about a Boeser / Beauvillier swap as well

That'd be interesting, but unless Brock continues his goal scoring I question how much interest there'd be. You never know, he has been producing. 

[Odd.]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Ahh shit, how did I miss Bolduc? He's a big dude at 6'4" and was drafted 57OA 2019.

 

I'd do it, part of it would be the cost of dumping Bailey. 

 

You ain't getting Dobson. Would you trade a Dobson? I'd rather have a Dobson than a Hughes. Big, offensively dynamic, defensively responsible, 22, RD, top pairing. You don't trade those guys.

 

Maybe you pry Mayfield out if you send them say.. Schenn. Picks and prospects aren't scraps. NYI has some good prospects, we could use good prospects. And people keep telling me there should be D available later in the 1st round but I couldn't tell you for sure. Even if it's a mid to late 1st we'd still get a good prospect out of it.

 

That'd be interesting, but unless Brock continues his goal scoring I question how much interest there'd be. You never know, he has been producing. 

The thing with Mayfield is that he’s 30 and our management has said they’re not going to go after 30 year olds.

 

Mayfield would be a temporary filler and not a long term move.

 

I like the idea of moving Miller/Horvat to Islanders though as it makes more sense than Columbus. 
 

Miller for Wahlstrom, 1st, Bailey and Bolduc

 

If it’s Horvat on the other hand, I’d expect at least another 1st or 2nd round pick as none of their other prospects are intriguing enough. I think Miller makes more sense than Horvat for the NYI

Edited November 19, 2022 by Odd.

[Coconuts]

10 minutes ago, Odd. said:

The thing with Mayfield is that he’s 30 and our management has said they’re not going to go after 30 year olds.

 

Mayfield would be a temporary filler and not a long term move.

 

I like the idea of moving Miller/Horvat to Islanders though as it makes more sense than Columbus. 
 

Miller for Wahlstrom, 1st, Bailey and Bolduc

 

If it’s Horvat on the other hand, I’d expect at least another 1st or 2nd round pick as none of their other prospects are intriguing enough. I think Miller makes more sense than Horvat for the NYI

Miller definitely makes more sense, they don't really need a Horvat with Barzal and Nelson down the middle. Hell, with Pageau as their 3C they're set pretty well. Cezikas as their 4C is just fine. Horvat could bump Nelson over and Nelson could play wing, or Horvat could play wing, and there's something to be said for having a center on the wing, but overall I think Miller's a better fit. 

 

The Isles could better insulate him defensively and all he'd have to do is focus on producing, which I think he could do out East. 

 

I agree Mayfield doesn't really fit with the age gap we should be looking at. I'd take that Miller deal, I'd even slot one of their other prospects in for Wahlstrom. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Coconuts

[Phil_314]

14 minutes ago, Odd. said:

The thing with Mayfield is that he’s 30 and our management has said they’re not going to go after 30 year olds.

Mayfield would be a temporary filler and not a long-term move.

 

I like the idea of moving Miller/Horvat to Islanders though as it makes more sense than Columbus. 
 

Miller for Wahlstrom, 1st, Bailey and Bolduc

 

If it’s Horvat on the other hand, I’d expect at least another 1st or 2nd round pick as none of their other prospects are intriguing enough. I think Miller makes more sense than Horvat for the NYI

Firstly, yes to moving Miller while we still can.  
Unless the team moves Boeser I don't know why we really need to add another scoring RW (already have Garland and Podkolzin too).
Bolduc is also a LHD of which the team ultimately should have enough (good for him to have an almost point-per-game season in the minors so far).  I'd rather see if we could go after Raty (seemed like he almost made their team this season, and knowing how our prospect pool is, he could be another useful player like Aman except with higher upside).
I agree with some of the other posters suggesting going for Mayfield (I don't agree with the filler argument -- Schenn's 33 and a filler at this point and look how well he's doing; it's also not like we have other RHD to readily turn to for pairing with Hughes).

My wish would be Miller for Mayfield (sign-and-trade for him), 1st (even 2024; can't really expect too much if we want to move Miller before his decline, esp. not a 1st from a loaded 2023 draft class), Bailey (cap move) and Raty (1st full season in Bridgeport, and likely has good NHL upside)
 

[KirkSave]

I just don't see the Van mgmt group moving Miller a few months after they chose to sign him before signing Bo. That being said, I do understand it is possible to try and ship out Miller, I just personally believe that to be very unlikely.

 

If we are looking to simply move out money, we have other players who would not fetch us as good a return. This mgmt group is hopefully looking to move players like Pearson, Myers, Garland and Boeser. Much rather have Miller & Bo and what he brings to this squad than any of the aforementioned guys.

Edited November 19, 2022 by KirkSave

[Coconuts]

9 minutes ago, KirkSave said:

I just don't see the Van mgmt group moving Miller a few months after they chose to sign him before signing Bo. That being said, I do understand it is possible to try and ship out Miller, I just personally believe that to be very unlikely.

 

If we are looking to simply move out money, we have other players who would not fetch us as good a return. This mgmt group is hopefully looking to move players like Pearson, Myers, Garland and Boeser. Much rather have Miller & Bo and what he brings to this squad than any of the aforementioned guys.

And that's fine, you're welcome to that view. I think it's extremely feasible though, particularly if this organization trends more towards a teardown, rebuild, retool, or whatever folks wanna call it. Miller's a competitive guy, he wants to win. He could do that with the Isles. Plus, he's familiar with New York having been drafted there and Long Island ain't that far off. 

 

He'd also be closer to home. I think there are absolutely roads to Miller trades, I just reckon the landing spot would need to be somewhere he'd be alright with. I figure he wouldn't mind NYI. Sending him somewhere he'd be okay with being moved to also helps mitigate the optics of trading someone shortly after signing them. If this organization goes in a different direction it'd be making the best of an awkward situation, I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume Miller probably wouldn't be thrilled with steps back in Vancouver. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Coconuts

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

Rumours and speculation have been whirling around this team for a while now and that likely isn't going to stop any time soon, particularly if they continue to lose more than they win. Sharks in the water, vultures overhead, teams seeing a team that's struggling and near the bottom of the league despite being perfectly capped out to begin the season. Take your pick. 

 

One team that's consistently been mentioned since a deal that may or may not have fallen through at the draft is the New York Islanders. They've off to a solid start and hold the third divisional spot going into tonight's game with an 11-7 record. As you'd expect, the defensive effort that had them as a playoff regular prior to last season is present and they're 5th in goals allowed, averaging only 2.67 goals a game. Their PK is 4th. They're a solid faceoff team, coming in at 13th with a 50.9 average. Their goal scoring is pretty good, they sit 12th in the league, but their powerplay however is more middle of the road, sitting at 17th. 

 

With Mathew Barzal leading the team with 19 points, all assists, in 18 games and Brock Nelson having 9 goals and 9 assists for 18 points in 18 games they're not hurting down the middle. The wing though, that's where they could use a boost. Enter Bo Horvat or JT Miller, either could play wing, and Horvat could even potentially bump someone to the wing. If you look at the Isles current scoring from the wing it leaves something to be desired outside of Anders Lee' 17 points. https://www.capfriendly.com/depth-charts/islanders

 

Outside of a few youngsters in Dobson, Romanov, and Wahlstrom the Isles are largely prime aged or leaning towards their early 30's. This is a team that should realistically be going for it sooner than later if they're going to go for it at all. Miller or Horvat help them do that. 

 

There's also speculation as to whether Horvat could be the piece. https://nyihockeynow.com/new-york-islanders-bo-hovat-vancouver-canucks-trade-rumors-lamoriello-alvvin/

 

And the fact that Josh Bailey has largely disappointed thus far this season. 

The Isles have 3.6M in cap space right now but more than likely we'd need to eat cap in any deal. Bailey seems like the likely candidate, and that's fine as he's only got one season remaining on his deal after this one. 

 

Bailey comes in at 5M, him and additional assets for Horvat would be a fairly straightforward swap. Miller could be had too, Bailey's 5M would eat up most of Miller's extension this year and their cap this year is quite close. The Isles would have to do a bit of shuffling to fit the rest of Miller's extension or a Horvat extension in but I reckon a savvy GM like Lou could figure that out. 

 

So Horvat for Bailey+ or Miller for Bailey+. That'd be the beginning of quite a shakeup, or a Miller trade could facilitate a Horvat extension. Either way, it'd free up cap space sooner than later given Bailey's short term contract while bringing back assets. 

 

But who do the Isles have to give? Well I'll tell you one thing, it ain't Dobson, you're dreaming if you think they're moving him. Full stop. Over the last 5-6 seasons the Isles have repeatedly demonstrated their willingness to move 1st round picks, they have their 1st over the next three years. That's more than likely on the table. Same can be said of their 2nd round picks. Simon Holmstrom (23OA 2019, right wing) could be of interest, as could Aatu Raty (52nd OA 2021, center), and Calle Odelius (65OA 2022, LD), and Samuel Bolduc (57OA 2019, 6'4" LD). Hell, maybe you manage to pry Wahlstrom (11OA 2018) away, hard to say what the interest might be there though from both sides. 

 

It's unlikely we'd get someone significant off their roster, but if the Isles are interested in either Horvat or Miller it's to try and take a step towards contention, they won't want to create holes on their roster. But if the idea is for the Canucks to reset things, retool, or rebuild, than picks, prospects, and cap space sooner than later probably does just fine. 

 

Maybe there's better trading partners, maybe there are better deals available at x time, but we don't know that right now. But if the season continues largely how it has the speculation and rumours surrounding our players is only going to intensify as time goes on. Maybe something happens with the Isles. 

 

I like your ideas but they are rebuilding moves, so our owner won’t go for them.  

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Odd. said:

Miller for Bailey, 2023 1st, Wahlstrom, and Bolduc.

good pieces back for sure (other than Bailey) but would Lou give up this much? he's so puckered I wonder if he'd be willing to do this. 

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, JM_ said:

good pieces back for sure (other than Bailey) but would Lou give up this much? he's so puckered I wonder if he'd be willing to do this. 

Would this trade be seen as a rebuilding direction from our POV?  If so, then as much as we (fans) hope for such a trade, it’s just not going t9 happen.  It’s against our owner’s philosophy.  

If Bo or Miller go to the Island expect guys who are at their ceiling coming back.  I could see Pageau and Mayfield as a return.  That’s more what our owner will expect.  

[JM_]

15 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Would this trade be seen as a rebuilding direction from our POV?  If so, then as much as we (fans) hope for such a trade, it’s just not going t9 happen.  It’s against our owner’s philosophy.  

If Bo or Miller go to the Island expect guys who are at their ceiling coming back.  I could see Pageau and Mayfield as a return.  That’s more what our owner will expect.  

If its Miller I can see convincing Aqua its not a rebuild but a hockey trade. If its Bo, then its a rebuild. 

[smithers joe]

in any trade, i'ld like to see us get a good defensive prospect, and a good center prospect and whatever we need to take to make the trade work for the other team too, plus a good draft pick.

[Junkyard Dog]

Trade Miller, Horvat and Kuz. 
 

Use cap to advantage. 
 

Stock up on picks/prospects the next 2-3 years. 
 

Then start using your cap and prospect pool to support the new core. 

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, smithers joe said:

in any trade, i'ld like to see us get a good defensive prospect, and a good center prospect and whatever we need to take to make the trade work for the other team too, plus a good draft pick.

 

4 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Trade Miller, Horvat and Kuz. 
 

Use cap to advantage. 
 

Stock up on picks/prospects the next 2-3 years. 
 

Then start using your cap and prospect pool to support the new core. 

Urs, these are both EXACTLY what we should do.  And (IMHAO) JR/Allvin know we should do this too.  But these are rebuilding moves, and our owner will not allow “steps back”.  

[Junkyard Dog]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

 

Urs, these are both EXACTLY what we should do.  And (IMHAO) JR/Allvin know we should do this too.  But these are rebuilding moves, and our owner will not allow “steps back”.  

Then he’ll waste money on a large management group and capped out team that probably won’t bring him much playoff revenue.

[eeeeergh]

2 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

I just hope Allvin doesn't get schooled by Lamoriello. 

 

Horvat is a primo centreman, and taking back a late 1st (pick 20+) and some scraps would be unacceptable. The Canucks need a Top 4RD. Certainly not Josh Bailey.

 

Dobson or Mayfield have to be included in the return, otherwise why make the deal with the Islanders? 

Cant even be Mayfield - too old

 

Needs to be Dobson or no dealio

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

I like your ideas but they are rebuilding moves, so our owner won’t go for them.  

I'm not convinced. If we continue to spin our wheels in mediocrity apathy is likely to settle in for more fans. Being caught in the middle is the worst. 

 

Being a businessman I'm sure Aqua can at the very least understand how beneficial longer term investments can be. And really, if the team continues to spin it's wheels he's going to lose money regardless.

 

46 minutes ago, smithers joe said:

in any trade, i'ld like to see us get a good defensive prospect, and a good center prospect and whatever we need to take to make the trade work for the other team too, plus a good draft pick.

Raty's a solid center prospect, Odelius and Bolduc both tick boxes as D prospects. Islanders also have picks they could move. A play on @Odd.'s idea could work. Raty, Bolduc, 1st, and Bailey. 

 

42 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Trade Miller, Horvat and Kuz. 
 

Use cap to advantage. 
 

Stock up on picks/prospects the next 2-3 years. 
 

Then start using your cap and prospect pool to support the new core. 

I'd be down for that. A Miller trade to the Isles could take place, Horvat could go elsewhere. 

 

22 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

Cant even be Mayfield - too old

 

Needs to be Dobson or no dealio

Only way I think the Isles would even consider moving Dobson would be if Hughes was involved, and even then I'm not sure. You don't move guys like Dobson, particularly at that age. If there's anyone who's untouchable on that roster it's likely Dobson.

 

If they want to move Miller before his trade protection kicks in these are the sorts of teams that'll have interest. Teams looking to take that next step who likely aren't wanting to remove prominent pieces of already competitive rosters. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Coconuts