Elias Pettersson Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, stawns said: Because they can absorb the loss of Miller. Losing horvat and keeping miller will cripple the franchise imo. On top of being an elite faceoff guy, good two way cman, the leader on the team, a consistent offensive producer, he's now added top level goal scorer to his resume. And if you think Millers attitude stinks now, wait until horvats gone and miller realizes he's signed on to a team going in the opposite direction he wants his s career to go. He'll be intolerable on the ice and in the room. How do you think Petey is going to react to that? Horvat is definitely not a good two-way Cman. Not even close. He is a bit better than Miller, that's about it. He is below average defensively. Th reason we suck is because we have no defensive structure, we have terrible defensive Dmen and we have only 2 or 3 forwards who know how to play defence. This team as it is currently constructed can score goals but can't defend or kill a penalty to save its life. Our team can absorb the loss of any player including Petey. Horvat is just another guy. You are too attached to any one player and that is the problem with some of the fans. I was pissed off when we traded Linden. I was extremely pissed off when we traded Bure. But the reality is we moved on and became a better team afterwards. The same will happen today as well. We will trade Horvat hopefully for a great return, we will get a new coach who focuses more on the defensive side, we will get some better Dmen and defensive forwards and we will move on to bigger and better things. This whole notion that our team will completely collapse if we trade Horvat is pure fear mongering by some of our fanbase. We will be fine without him, just like we were fine without Linden and Bure who were even more instrumental to this team than Horvat... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: I brought it up earlier and I still like the idea of a trade around Kotkaniemi for Miller. They wouldn’t have to add much for me. Add in their (assumed very late) 1st and I’d drive Miller to the airport. KK has had great possession stats in 13-14 minutes a night his whole career. He’s chippy. Big. A natural C. 50+% on face offs the last 2 seasons. Yes you’d prefer around 40 points to 25-30 but if he was doing that he’d be prohibitively expensive as opposed to likely very available. Pretty small margin for improvement to become a solid asset. And he fits perfectly into the timeline. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chon derry Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 12 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: CDC is upset because we re-signed Miller after he had a career year to a retirement contract. Also, CDC is upset because we are NOT re-signing Horvat to a retirement contract after having a career year. Miller regressed after getting paid but there is no way Horvat will ever do that, he will just keep scoring goals forever. People want to get rid of Miller to fix the "mistake", but they want JR to do the exact same thing with Horvat as they did with Miller because it definitely won't be a mistake this time. Nope, Horvat is the real deal. He will never let us down after he gets that $64 million... Controversy follows miller like a dark cloud. His play aside. Bo having some as well (contract). Signing Bo that all goes away. Miller on the other hand? None of miller’s antics happen if the team had more veteran leadership other than schenn. Miller has no leadership qualities. At all. Getting everyone on the same page with miller becomes an impossibility unless he can man up quick like ! The only person that thinks he’s a leader is him. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said: Horvat is definitely not a good two-way Cman. Not even close. He is a bit better than Miller, that's about it. He is below average defensively. Th reason we suck is because we have no defensive structure, we have terrible defensive Dmen and we have only 2 or 3 forwards who know how to play defence. This team as it is currently constructed can score goals but can't defend or kill a penalty to save its life. Our team can absorb the loss of any player including Petey. Horvat is just another guy. You are too attached to any one player and that is the problem with some of the fans. I was pissed off when we traded Linden. I was extremely pissed off when we traded Bure. But the reality is we moved on and became a better team afterwards. The same will happen today as well. We will trade Horvat hopefully for a great return, we will get a new coach who focuses more on the defensive side, we will get some better Dmen and defensive forwards and we will move on to bigger and better things. This whole notion that our team will completely collapse if we trade Horvat is pure fear mongering by some of our fanbase. We will be fine without him, just like we were fine without Linden and Bure who were even more instrumental to this team than Horvat... I look at possession as being more important than you do obviously. Losing horvat will set this franchise way back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 7 minutes ago, stawns said: Because they can absorb the loss of Miller. Losing horvat and keeping miller will cripple the franchise imo. On top of being an elite faceoff guy, good two way cman, the leader on the team, a consistent offensive producer, he's now added top level goal scorer to his resume. And if you think Millers attitude stinks now, wait until hora s gone and miller realizes he's signed on to a team going in the opposite direction he wants his s career to go. He'll be intolerable on the ice and in the room. How do you think Petey is going to react to that? This is what I was saying above. Losing Horvat creates a huge hole that Miller can't fill. If they lose Horvat, they are going on a major re-tool. But what if they can't move Miller? Can they keep both? And if they do, is that a top 6 that can win a cup? They still have to fix the D. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 6 minutes ago, aGENT said: They also need to re-up (or replace) Teräväinen, Necas, Fast, Martinook, Stastny, Jarvis, Pesce, Skej and a starting goalie in the next couple years. Yes they're relatively well positioned to do so, but all that supposed cap space is an illusion. It's largely spoken for. And yes, I see Horvat as a stellar fit there at 2C (arguably their biggest need). Not one of their better wingers, on a bargain ELC, with his entire prime ahead of him. If they're sending us a winger off their roster, it will be someone like Fast, Stepan or Martinook. There's next to zero chance we're getting Jarvis. If they weren't willing to part with Jarvis, I'm ok with other pieces. The goal is to get rid of Miller. JK 2023 1st 2024 1st Both of which are, essentially, 2nd rounders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 Just now, Crabcakes said: This is what I was saying above. Losing Horvat creates a huge hole that Miller can't fill. If they lose Horvat, they are going on a major re-tool. But what if they can't move Miller? Can they keep both? And if they do, is that a top 6 that can win a cup? They still have to fix the D. Exactly They can ride out Myers, they can ride out boeser (ugh), but they can't ride out millers deal. If they miss this window, it's miller and his attitude for 7 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckleHorse Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 I have a feeling that Miller is gonna go on a tear just a feeling that he’s the type that loves to put eggs on his doubters face and he will make you sing his praises again. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 Just now, CanuckleHorse said: I have a feeling that Miller is gonna go on a tear just a feeling that he’s the type that loves to put eggs on his doubters face and he will make you sing his praises again. I don't see anyone saying he's not a great player.......quite the opposite actually No one really has an issue with Miller when he's "up", but millers downs, and there are lots of them, don't make his upswings worth it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, stawns said: I look at possession as being more important than you do obviously. Losing horvat will set this franchise way back Linden and Bure were far more important to this team than Horvat has ever been. Their numbers are hanging from the rafters for a reason. You are too attached to BO unfortunately so you can't really see that. This team will be fine without him, I can guarantee it because we've traded even better players before him and we still exist as a franchise. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 Just now, Elias Pettersson said: Linden and Bure were far more important to this team than Horvat has ever been. Their numbers are hanging from the rafters for a reason. You are too attached to BO unfortunately so you can't really see that. This team will be fine without him, I can guarantee it because we've traded even better players before him and we still exist as a franchise. Disagree and that was pre-salary cap when you could buy your way out of trouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, Crabcakes said: This is what I was saying above. Losing Horvat creates a huge hole that Miller can't fill. If they lose Horvat, they are going on a major re-tool. But what if they can't move Miller? Can they keep both? And if they do, is that a top 6 that can win a cup? They still have to fix the D. All depends on the returns for Horvat, our fortunes in the draft lotto and whether they can manage to perhaps unearth a 3C in either the Horvat trade or perhaps a Boeser/Garland one, and other follow up moves IMO. Get a solid return on Horvat, wind up with a top 3-5 pick, find a legit defense-leaning 3C... and we're not looking so bad (though I always have, and continue to, prefer a Horvat extension). Either way, I still feel like we should move Miller this TDL, regardless of what happens with Bo. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, chon derry said: Controversy follows miller like a dark cloud. His play aside. Bo having some as well (contract). Signing Bo that all goes away. Miller on the other hand? None of miller’s antics happen if the team had more veteran leadership other than schenn. Miller has no leadership qualities. At all. Getting everyone on the same page with miller becomes an impossibility unless he can man up quick like ! The only person that thinks he’s a leader is him. I am not trying to defend Miller at all. Yes, his antics are not helpful, I agree with you on this. My point was that re-signing Horvat in the same fashion as what we did with Miller is not going to help fix this mess that we are in. We are a lousy team with Horvat. Signing him to an 8-year extension isn't going to change that and make us any better. Horvat is literally on pace for 60 goals and we are still a lottery team. You can be upset that Miller is still on the team, but at the end of the day our problems far surpass just having Miller around. We have much bigger problems than that... Edited January 8, 2023 by Elias Pettersson 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3aL Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 25 minutes ago, Crabcakes said: There's this new thing. Miller Petey Kuzmenko Why didn't they try this before? We'll see where this takes us. I think that when people see Horvat for 8.5 or what ever it is they think omg, they have to move somebody big. It's a $3M raise. Pearson for a pick would do the trick. I’ve been wanting it. miller has always played well on Peteys wing. And miller has shown chemistry with Kuzmenko when on the ice together (PP/OT) Will only boost millers trade value too 8.5 for Bo is a lot I’d prefer less and pearson gots to goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, stawns said: Disagree and that was pre-salary cap when you could buy your way out of trouble Well that is the problem then. If you think that Horvat is more important to this current team than Linden and Bure were to our 90's team than I can't really help you. You are way past being attached to BO. You will never let it go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 6 minutes ago, stawns said: If they weren't willing to part with Jarvis, I'm ok with other pieces. The goal is to get rid of Miller. JK 2023 1st 2024 1st Both of which are, essentially, 2nd rounders Horvat's a better fit (and offers a better return) to CAR anyway. And yes, CAR has plenty of solid pieces to offer (Drury, Morrow, Seeley, Heimosalmi, Nikishin, Gunler) Miller I could see more to PIT, NJD, NYI, BOS, CAL etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 4 minutes ago, aGENT said: All depends on the returns for Horvat, our fortunes in the draft lotto and whether they can manage to perhaps unearth a 3C in either the Horvat trade or perhaps a Boeser/Garland one, and other follow up moves IMO. Get a solid return on Horvat, wind up with a top 3-5 pick, find a legit defense-leaning 3C... and we're not looking so bad (though I always have, and continue to, prefer a Horvat extension). Either way, I still feel like we should move Miller this TDL, regardless of what happens with Bo. I'd be totally fine with moving both Miller and Horvat. I am not attached to either one. The only untouchable on this team is Petey, unless we get the most insane offer for him... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: I am not trying to defend Miller at all. Yes, his antics are not helpful, I agree with you on this. My point was that re-signing Horvat in the same fashion as what we did with Miller is not going to help fix this mess that we are in. We are a lousy team with Horvat. Signing him to an 8-year extension isn't going to change that and make us any better. Horvat is literally on pace for 60 goals and we are still a lottery team. You can be upset that Miller is still on the team, but at the end of the day our problems far surpass just having Miller around. We have much bigger problems than that... Because horvat is a far superior player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Gurn said: New guys just continue to dig the hole. Brock to a 3 yr deal Miller to a 7 Mik- as good as he's been, forward depth was not the team's big problem The other signings are mostly meh- or of little consequence Edit to add Kuzmenko has been good, he will make excellent trade bait, if they can't move out enough other money to re-sign him. Yup, they went out and signed Mik but his money should be going to Kuzmenko. Very short-sighted management. Good players are great but its' absolutely meaningless if you do it at the expense of fixing areas that are stopping us from being competitive. First Miller cost us Bo and now Mik will cost us Kuz, unless we slash elsewhere. 1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said: Trading Miller for JK is not freeing up alot of cap space. You are getting stuck with a 3C for another 7.5 years at almost $5 million. There are better deals out there than this. And yes, Horvat is a better fit for Carolina than Miller anyways, I doubt Carolina has any interest in Miller... It does get a younger player in there that fits the timeline with plenty of room to grow. Plus the other pieces are key as well. I do agree there may be better deals out there that fit us better ... but for us anything is better than Miller and his retirement contract. I see in your other posts you accept we may be two or three years away. I wonder how bad Miller will be by then. 1 hour ago, Alflives said: The allotment of our cap space for our centres is a lot less if we move Miller for Kotkaniemi. And we get a lot of years of JK in his mid twenties. A lot of people would be excited about this deal. I wouldn’t do Bo for JK unless there was a lot more coming back. I'm hoping we can get more. I'm terrified as to what these guys are looking for in a trade. I can just imagine a garbage return and them being super excited by like Zucker and a third or something. 1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said: KK's buyout hit is only $822,000. So that is a good point Wai. If he doesn't pan out Carolina can just buy him out. Maybe we can trade Bo, and then just buy out Miller, Boeser, KK, OEL, Garland and Myers ... @cleanslate lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Well that is the problem then. If you think that Horvat is more important to this current team than Linden and Bure were to our 90's team than I can't really help you. You are way past being attached to BO. You will never let it go... Because I know the value of a player like horvat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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