Edit- Rick Tocchet Expected To Be Next Head Coach

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[MeanSeanBean]

1 minute ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

[AnthonyG]

4 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

I have no idea what your talking about. I did one a while back when you resorted to insulting instead of debating because I find it childish. Then you earned another after you specifically @'d me out of the blue.

 

Get over yourself. 

Umm would you like to go back and check the footage? Im PRETTY SURE, you jumped in out of nowhere because I corrected @Warhippyon his spelling of a fan favourites name after he came out making threats and saying he was going to hurt my feelings lol. Thats when I turned around and gave it right back to him. He still has no answer as to how much of a fan he is if he cant even spell a players name who he has seen on TV well over 5000 times. Especially when hes googling it and reading it constantly. Its not a word he uses once in 100 years its a name that should be unforgettable. 
 

Not only that I called you out with your snarky remark and you refused to acknowledge that you jumped to a conclusion and made an ignorant comment without having the full backstory. I have been trying to have a debate, but its impossible to debate when none of the questions I ask about the view of you guys, give an answer.

 

What did Mike Gillis do for our future that was so impactful?

 

Why hasnt the almighty Mike Gillis found another NHL job?

 

How do you go from agent to GM to professor if you are sooooo good?

 

Who was taking over for the Sedins during 2005-2013? 
 

How do you rebuild a team AND a prospect pool at the same time, when you have no valuable trade chips?

 

How many rebuilds have a winning percentage?

 

 

The worst part of all this is, all of you dont even realize. That what is going on right this very second in this organization, IS a rebuild. Its PART of the rebuild process and you’re calling for a bloody rebuild when this one is just getting to a point where we can finally develop prospects.

 

1) draft

2) develop

3) gain experience at the NHL level

4) hit athletic prime

5) contend

 

WE ARE AT STEP 3 FFS. Is Petey in his prime? Hughes? Podz? Klim? whos had 16pts in 19 games. Karlsson? 
 

wake up dude. Be patient ffs. Rebuilds are never quick especially when we have never had the luxury of a generational player let alone a consolation prize or top 3 pick. 
Our biggest core pieces moving forward was drafted just over 5 years ago. Demko was 8 years ago, but hey look he went through a development path thanks to Markstrom holding down the net. 

 

[DSVII]

3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

My god you believe in development???? Omg the sun must be rising in the west and setting in the east. Just admit it!

Literal straw man. Never said I didn't believe in development. While you are on the record for saying Draft capital and value of draft position is 'weak'.

 

 

Quote

You havent answered me. Why was McCann continually moved for less and less and less? Ive asked this/mentioned it to you multiple times. You avoid it. Why?

 

 

You haven't answered me on a slew of other stuff too. How about the proof in the pudding that NHL ready talent can be found more easier at the top of the drafts?

 

He was moved for less and less because Benning stunted his development by putting him straight to the NHL. That's what Benning does, he undercuts his greatest strength through his managerial ineptitude.

 

Quote

Calling it a PR stunt.. lol do you want me to copy and pasta the 2015-16 roster?? Lmao you think McCann didnt beat anyone out in camp? 
Gaunce? Etem? Shinkaruk? Grenier? Zalewski? How many more plugs do I have to name who all got a look and clearly werent NHLers. The whole point of camp is to get a read on whos ready or at least close to being ready. 
Its also not too hard to monitor a 1-2 players at the NHL level and develop everyone else in the minors. The Twins developed at the NHL level behind the WCE and it was a smooth transition to the Sedin era. Meanwhile Kesler, Burrows etc etc all developed in the AHL. We slowly integrated players. Bieksa, Edler, Kesler, Hansen, Raymond, Schneider….

Copy and paste proves nothing. You said it yourself, prospects need development time. It's part of a GM to have the acumen to know the timing of when to bring up their prospects and whether it's in an environment that can support them. I'm sure Nils and Podz are appreciating the extra time they have in the AHL right now versus this dumpster fire of the NHL team.

 

It's not always just about being good enough to beat a 4th liner for their spot on the roster and playing 4th line minutes.

 

Quote

Also as for Gudbranson, I seem to strongly recall watching that Florida series and seeing him become the #1 shutdown dman throughout that series taking on nearly 75% dzone starts that series and he was out there in all the big moments and crushing guys everywhere. In hindsight the value of the trade will always be argued. But no one will ever talk about the preceding value. At the the time that was a fair trade to acquire a shutdown dman who just had one of his best seasons along with a monster defensive post season with nearly 27min TOI. He was on for 1 more goal against in all situations in the regular season compared to Ekblad who had a 60% oZS compared to Gudbransons 32% oZS and with nearly DOUBLE the defensive zone starts, Gudbranson was on for 38 goals against total at even strength compared to Ekblads 51 with primary offensive zone duties. What do you have to say about those analytics?

His time here in Van was during one of the lowest scoring periods as well as him suffering 2 major injuries, missing 1 whole seasons worth of hockey in his first 2 seasons. 

Care to cherry pick any other topics? Gudbranson lol. You know you’re losing an argument when you have to turn to Gudbranson.

 

 

You cherry pick stats all the time bud.. Please do quote me his shot suppression numbers, zone exits, Corsi and HDCA, because that is what is important for shutdown defensemen. Deployment sure, indicates trust from the coach but doesn't tell us effectiveness. But that isn't the point of this and you are always trying to divert the argument into a hockey HB spam thread.

 

But that isn't why I brought him up.

 

The reason to bring up Gudbranson was to highlight that Benning had no strategic foresight. A team targeted him to pay premium for a declining assset because they recognized how much of a smuck he was. Same reason why Vegas called Benning to dump Schmidt on him, because he put himself in a position to be taken advantage of. 

 

 

Quote

Still waiting for an answer as to why the almighty Gillis hasnt been offered a job with an NHL team? Why was the only job he could find, a professor job at UVic?

I answered his long time ago man. Aqualini was still paying him since he was fired a year after hisi extension, plus he's burned a lot of bridges with his MO. He was an asshole, no doubt about it.

When's your hero Benning's next gig gonna be?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by DSVII

[MeanSeanBean]

4 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Umm would you like to go back and check the footage? Im PRETTY SURE, you jumped in out of nowhere because I corrected @Warhippyon his spelling of a fan favourites name after he came out making threats and saying he was going to hurt my feelings lol. Thats when I turned around and gave it right back to him. He still has no answer as to how much of a fan he is if he cant even spell a players name who he has seen on TV well over 5000 times. Especially when hes googling it and reading it constantly. Its not a word he uses once in 100 years its a name that should be unforgettable. 
 

Not only that I called you out with your snarky remark and you refused to acknowledge that you jumped to a conclusion and made an ignorant comment without having the full backstory. I have been trying to have a debate, but its impossible to debate when none of the questions I ask about the view of you guys, give an answer.

 

What did Mike Gillis do for our future that was so impactful?

 

Why hasnt the almighty Mike Gillis found another NHL job?

 

How do you go from agent to GM to professor if you are sooooo good?

 

Who was taking over for the Sedins during 2005-2013? 
 

How do you rebuild a team AND a prospect pool at the same time, when you have no valuable trade chips?

 

How many rebuilds have a winning percentage?

 

 

The worst part of all this is, all of you dont even realize. That what is going on right this very second in this organization, IS a rebuild. Its PART of the rebuild process and you’re calling for a bloody rebuild when this one is just getting to a point where we can finally develop prospects.

 

1) draft

2) develop

3) gain experience at the NHL level

4) hit athletic prime

5) contend

 

WE ARE AT STEP 3 FFS. Is Petey in his prime? Hughes? Podz? Klim? whos had 16pts in 19 games. Karlsson? 
 

wake up dude. Be patient ffs. Rebuilds are never quick especially when we have never had the luxury of a generational player let alone a consolation prize or top 3 pick. 
Our biggest core pieces moving forward was drafted just over 5 years ago. Demko was 8 years ago, but hey look he went through a development path thanks to Markstrom holding down the net. 

 

You're completely delusional. You can stop @'ing me anytime.

 

I can like or dislike whatever I like. If you get so offended by internet paper bags maybe the big scary internet isn't the right place for you.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Shayster007

[AnthonyG]

2 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

You're completely delusional. You can stop @'ing me anytime.

 

I can like or dislike whatever I like. If you get so offended by internet paper bags maybe the big scary internet isn't the right place for you.

Im not offended. You clearly have a crush, so I’m just making sure my fans are included.

 

keep the paper bags for home.

[wildcam]

If Canucks make coach change it will be at the end of the moth when the team has  week off starting January 28th, 2023

[DSVII]

35 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

 

 

 

 

Based on @Warhippycomments about defending someone no matter how disgusting the crime is…. Brad Aldrich is that you? you trying to get back into an NHL job??

 

 

@Shayster007 is that you??

 

it all makes sense now. And Im guessing @DSVII is 

 

You guys seem to love workin together and defending one another.

Nah, i don't agree with everything these guys say. It's possible to have separate opinions on different things and agreement on other things. 

 

Anyways, I'm done with this. Get some air outside man, gonna do the same, we can all use the break.

[EP Phone Home]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

2 playoff appearances in 7 years while rebuilding.

Except we were never rebuilding in the first place. We were told it was a “retool on the fly” Rebuilding teams accumulate draft capital, not dispose it. How many 1sts, 2nds and 3rds did we trade for quick fixes during the previous regime? How many did we accumulate as that’s what rebuilding teams do?

 

Let’s get one thing clear here. Trevor Linden wanted to do a rebuild. Jim Benning and Aquilini wanted to be “competitive” Trevor is no longer a part of this organization because of the difference in direction we went with. When the Sedin’s retired we should’ve gone with TL’s plan because we probably would’ve been coming out of it around this time. Instead we are still trying to be “competitive” and “retooling on the fly”. Perhaps it’s time to actually rebuild, not what we are perpetually doing now which is absolutely no man’s land in the mushy mediocre middle. 

[DSVII]

36 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

 @DSVIII actually do respect the work you put in and post. I dont mind your replies whatsoever, but I do disagree with a lot of it because it ultimately boils down to development and I will show you later how your graph that you posted last night. Will actually back my argument up over yours.

Haha it's fine @AnthonyG. We can have different opinions. Ultimately I think our discussions have run their course. If you wonder why I'm just so militant on some of my points,  I still remember a time on this forum when others lambasted me for crying about 'asset management' and 'cap space' and being told that is not important when we signed Roussel and Beagle. And lost Hamhuis for nothing.

 

I never said development wasn't important, that's why I keep bringing up the transition from Chicago Wolves to Utica as an achievement under Gillis, because it gave us autonomy and control over how our prospects were used, Gillis had no ability to tell Chicago to play his prospects and put them in positions to succeed. I believe you need to maximize both development and draft capital to increase your chances of finding a late round hit.

 

I acknowledge our differences and though I don't agree with your arguments or how they're presented, I don't question your fandom or your passion. I can leave it at that.

 

I just want to be able to enjoy this team again, and man, has the last decade been depressing. Think I'll just take a step back for awhile because it is getting wearing. 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by DSVII

[Junkyard Dog]

5 minutes ago, EP Phone Home said:

Except we were never rebuilding in the first place. We were told it was a “retool  refooled on the fly” Rebuilding teams accumulate draft capital, not dispose it. How many 1sts, 2nds and 3rds did we trade for quick fixes during the previous regime? How many did we accumulate as that’s what rebuilding teams do?

 

Let’s get one thing clear here. Trevor Linden wanted to do a rebuild. Jim Benning and Aquilini wanted to be “competitive” Trevor is no longer a part of this organization because of the difference in direction we went with. When the Sedin’s retired we should’ve gone with TL’s plan because we probably would’ve been coming out of it around this time. Instead we are still trying to be “competitive” and “retooling on the fly”. Perhaps it’s time to actually rebuild, not what we are perpetually doing now which is absolutely no man’s land in the mushy mediocre middle. 

 

[MeanSeanBean]

Just now, Junkyard Dog said:

 

 

 

Rebuild you fools

[DeNiro]

25 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

Like how limited is your scope when you’ll only hire ex Pens??

 

There’s zero creativity or boldness in this management’s decisions.

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Like how limited is your scope when you’ll only hire ex Pens??

 

There’s zero creativity or boldness in this management’s decisions.

It's almost as bas as Green hiring Baumgartner.  Nothing more than nepotism while ignoring obviously more qualified candidates.  Rutherford has proven himself to be unfit for continued employment.

[DSVII]

12 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Big applause here 

 

Where'd you find this table??

Someone on Canucks Reddit made it about a year and a half ago.

 

 

 

Quote

Ok so to summarize.  Draft position IS important?

 

But Gillis while drafting at an average of 26th failed in his 5 total drafts while Benning in his 7  total drafts while drafting at an average of 9th was successful?

 

Tell me.  Who failed more.

 

Gillis for Hodgson** at 10 Gaunce at 26, Jensen at 29, Schroeder at 22, Horvat at 9, Shinkaruk at 24

 

Or

 

Benning for Virtanen at 6, McCann at 24, Boeser at 23, Juolevi at 5, Pettersson at 5, Hughes at 7, Podkolzin at 10.

 

Tell me, based on "draft position" who is the bigger failure at drafting?  We will skip development because of all the aforementioned players the only one truly developed was Shinkaruk as he never really left the AHL

I guess my point on this is this. Forget Benning and Gillis

 

If you give a set of identical GMs these picks.

 

Generic guy A: 10, 26, 29, 22, 9, 24

Generic guy B: 6, 24, 23, 5, 5, 7, 10

 

GM B will almost always walk away with more high quality NHL players. I'm not going to accuse GM A of being a bad drafter if he couldn't match GM B's output. It's just not an apples to apples comparision.

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by DSVII

[Warhippy]

Ladies and gentlemen.  Your new leadership group is the exact same as the old leadership group.  Why do I say that you ask?

 

Look at this gem of a quote from Jimmy and tell me you didn't just get flashbacks of Vey, Clendenning, Granlund, Dahlen, Goldobin, Dalpe, Pouliot etc etc etc etc.  This team needs major surbgery but I believe in the core so i will continue doing the exact same thing as we've done since 2014/2015 and bargain bin shop while spending to the cap on washed out tweeners who belong on the pine and not the ice because moneypuck.

 

“I'd prefer to get younger NHL players that maybe didn't work out in their entry level contract and, you know, bring them in and give them a second chance."

[Dr. Crossbar]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

Ladies and gentlemen.  Your new leadership group is the exact same as the old leadership group.  Why do I say that you ask?

 

Look at this gem of a quote from Jimmy and tell me you didn't just get flashbacks of Vey, Clendenning, Granlund, Dahlen, Goldobin, Dalpe, Pouliot etc etc etc etc.  This team needs major surbgery but I believe in the core so i will continue doing the exact same thing as we've done since 2014/2015 and bargain bin shop while spending to the cap on washed out tweeners who belong on the pine and not the ice because moneypuck.

 

“I'd prefer to get younger NHL players that maybe didn't work out in their entry level contract and, you know, bring them in and give them a second chance."

Been saying it since last year and getting attacked for it. Exact same philosophy/approach. They revealed it from day one. No one wanted to believe it. 

[grumpyone]

meet our new Head Coach...

[Warhippy]

3 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Someone on Canucks Reddit made it about a year and a half ago.

 

 

 

I guess my point on this is this. Forget Benning and Gillis

 

If you give a set of identical GMs these picks.

 

Generic guy A: 10, 26, 29, 22, 9, 24

Generic guy B: 6, 24, 23, 5, 5, 7, 10

 

GM B will almost always walk away with more high quality NHL players. I'm not going to accuse GM A of being a bad drafter if he couldn't match GM B's output. It's just not an apples to apples comparision.

 

That's a great table honestly.  Was shocked at how well drawn it was and the effort put in.  It also highlights exactly what drum I've been banging with my statements about the lack of draft and development success since 2006.  It's not a one off GM issue it's been a multi decade long failure.

 

You're also exactly right, if two GMs are given those picks and both flame out that's fine.  but one GM deserves a far greater amount of scrutiny based on the quality of their picks and lack of success vs the other simply based on draft position.  At days end I love the overall aspect of hockey, from draft to success.  Colorado is an excellent example of what Gillis attempted to do.  They actually had/have a shockingly bad success rate since 2009 in terms of draft success and development.  But their hits were almost all top 5 picks outside of Barrie, O'Reilly, Rantanen and Jost (two who were 10th overall) they went all in and won it all.  but they also knew when to sell those prime assets and had spot on pro scouting doing it.  Everyone hit at the right time and they hoisted a cup.

 

They have every chance of succession but have also missed out horrifically in their drafts barring those high picks.  At days end, any team can succeed with the draft if they get lucky.  Luck and patience have as much to do with that as anything else.  But, they also HAVE to succeed on the ice and through their pro scouting/trades and the cap and not just on the back end.  Since 2009/2010 every draft success Colorado has had was a top 10/5 pick.  This team of ours should since 2014 be able to say with the picks they've had; that they've had similar success but they haven't.

 

That's all there is to it.

[MaxVerstappen33]

Gonchar would be good for our Russians no ?