[Report/Rumour] Elias Pettersson Contract Talks

[VegasCanuck]

22 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I agree, we shouldn't be spending assets to remove players but I do believe we have assets which are redundant. 

Wingers-smallish, non gritty offensive minded- Boeser, Garland ,Beauvillier, Hoglander 

We already have Kuz and Mik in the top 6 to play with Miller and Petey. We need size and grit and these 4 Wingers don't have it.

Defense- non-gritty or lack size, offensive minded- Hughes, Hronek, Myers, OEL, Bear

Again we need size and grit in the top 4 to play with Hronek and Hughes. Bear became redundant when we acquired Hronek. 

In a perfect world, we instantly get rid of these redundant players and we add what we need. This management is trying to do both at the same time as quick as they can, while working under the Cap. 

I think we have time on our side for the time being and I think this season would be the year they have some leeway. Look for those big gritty complimentary players that we need while selling off what we don't need and are redundant.

Oh yeah, and I admit, I don't know much about the taxes issue, you are probably right. I just don't know how much of them use that as a part of their decision making. Either they ask for a bit more to compensate or they have a wife who says I want to live there and they just make it happen. Many different aspects to consider but yes, taxes comes into some of their decisions when signing contracts.

Just a note, Boeser is 6'1", 208 lbs. Although he could probably be a little more physical, he is far from "smallish"

 

I'd personally like to see us keep Boeser and see if he can put together an injury free season and get his full game back. He was looking much better in the last 20 games.

 

I'd really like to see us move Garland and keep Hoglander as Hoglander plays a similar type of game at a much cheaper price. This isn't to say that Garland is overpaid, I think he should have signed closer to 3.75 million per, but contracts are often based on increasing cap. I think contracts signed this summer for similar players will place him at 4.95, right in line. As it's a weak UFA class this summer, I think Garland's value will grow as summer goes on and what is available on UFA front, starts to vanish.

 

Beauvillier, I see as similar situation to Garland. I think as teams get a chance to start talking to potential UFA's, he'll become more valuable as well as his production is decent for his contract and he can be effective across 3 different lines.

 

Although Hoglander isn't all that tall (5'9"), he's solid at 185 lbs and hard to knock off the puck. I see him signing a 1 way contract this summer for around 800k. I think he made some pretty good strides on the defensive side of his game in Abbotsford.

[EdgarM]

2 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

I think we just have to hold our noses as fans and embrace that the direction is playoffs now, future assets are future problems.  Terrible way to run a club during a retool/build but this direction clearly comes from ownership.

This type of direction has led us to be a team that is too good for the bottom, almost good enough for the middle and is willing to spend any and all future assets to reach the middle as quickly as possible.

Is it a terrible management strategy, yes but we need a management group bold enough to break the cycle, and this isn't it.  Good news is mediocre teams ride hot goalies to the finals all the time, they usually lose but hey it is the best chance we get.

 

2 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I don't understand what the stink is about rebuilding? If Winnipeg, Vancouver, and San Jose admitted it's going in a new direction. At least the fans know that the GM's know this is not a retool, but a rebuild. I suppose saying you have good pieces to build around, and looking to move forward is a non-denial/denial and at least management knows it's got it's work cut out for it. I just worry it just delays the team rebuilding later on.

Just curious on your guys thoughts on the whole Rebuild/Retool debate. 

So we went to the finals in 2011 and tried to keep the Sedins past their expiry date. In that time though, we acquired Boeser, Horvat and Demko in 2013-15.

Then though, we acquired Petey and Hughes in 2017-18. 

I find it difficult to see where a rebuild would naturally start and the old one end. Yes I know, Benning had no intention of rebuilding.

I see it more as a look at how a team handles their assets whether they are coming in or going out. 

The only big difference would be the Core players. 

So if we look at that, when is the last time we had a Hughes? Petey could be looked at as a Hank replacement. Demko? Well we have been fairly lucky over the years with goalies and have only went through a couple of dry spells in that department. 

I have heard that it comes from the draft. I agree, but we head into the draft, "Willy Nilly" most of the time with no clear direction. We always draft Best player available. I am thinking , "it must be nice to be picky". Shouldn't we be drafting based on Team NEED? 

We never seem to trade up or trade down, we just take what is available. Well we did for the Sedins and that seemed to work out OK.

Sorry for the rant but it just seems to me that its not rebuilding per say, but dealing with your assets correctly overall. Not a good idea to draft a bunch of superstars and then over pay them. If you are going to pay a superstar the big bucks, make sure he can perform in the playoffs, when it counts.

Teams like Seattle and Vegas seem to know how to build a team that knows how to win in the play offs, we can't even seem to figure out whether we are rebuilding or retooling to begin with. 

[DrJockitch]

1 minute ago, EdgarM said:

 

Just curious on your guys thoughts on the whole Rebuild/Retool debate. 

So we went to the finals in 2011 and tried to keep the Sedins past their expiry date. In that time though, we acquired Boeser, Horvat and Demko in 2013-15.

Then though, we acquired Petey and Hughes in 2017-18. 

I find it difficult to see where a rebuild would naturally start and the old one end. Yes I know, Benning had no intention of rebuilding.

I see it more as a look at how a team handles their assets whether they are coming in or going out. 

The only big difference would be the Core players. 

So if we look at that, when is the last time we had a Hughes? Petey could be looked at as a Hank replacement. Demko? Well we have been fairly lucky over the years with goalies and have only went through a couple of dry spells in that department. 

I have heard that it comes from the draft. I agree, but we head into the draft, "Willy Nilly" most of the time with no clear direction. We always draft Best player available. I am thinking , "it must be nice to be picky". Shouldn't we be drafting based on Team NEED? 

We never seem to trade up or trade down, we just take what is available. Well we did for the Sedins and that seemed to work out OK.

Sorry for the rant but it just seems to me that its not rebuilding per say, but dealing with your assets correctly overall. Not a good idea to draft a bunch of superstars and then over pay them. If you are going to pay a superstar the big bucks, make sure he can perform in the playoffs, when it counts.

Teams like Seattle and Vegas seem to know how to build a team that knows how to win in the play offs, we can't even seem to figure out whether we are rebuilding or retooling to begin with. 

Seattle and Vegas start with no baggage.

The rebuild should have begun in 2012 after we flamed out against the Kings.  It was clear that core was done.

They decided to give it one more go, fine but after the second year of Willie there should have been a major sell off of anything that could be sold and a proper rebuild started.

They missed the opportunity for a short-cut retool/rebuild whatever this season when we were near the bottom of the league.

The lack of a rebuild and the constant win now at all costs mode has caught up and has given us a decade of futility with the cold comfort of an 11OA with no second rounders the next 2 seasons with a very thin farm system and a pro club lacking at C, D and lacking size and speed on the wing.  Fear not though we will spend more future assets to continue this climb to try to get to the middle.

[EdgarM]

7 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

Just a note, Boeser is 6'1", 208 lbs. Although he could probably be a little more physical, he is far from "smallish"

 

I'd personally like to see us keep Boeser and see if he can put together an injury free season and get his full game back. He was looking much better in the last 20 games.

 

I'd really like to see us move Garland and keep Hoglander as Hoglander plays a similar type of game at a much cheaper price. This isn't to say that Garland is overpaid, I think he should have signed closer to 3.75 million per, but contracts are often based on increasing cap. I think contracts signed this summer for similar players will place him at 4.95, right in line. As it's a weak UFA class this summer, I think Garland's value will grow as summer goes on and what is available on UFA front, starts to vanish.

 

Beauvillier, I see as similar situation to Garland. I think as teams get a chance to start talking to potential UFA's, he'll become more valuable as well as his production is decent for his contract and he can be effective across 3 different lines.

 

Although Hoglander isn't all that tall (5'9"), he's solid at 185 lbs and hard to knock off the puck. I see him signing a 1 way contract this summer for around 800k. I think he made some pretty good strides on the defensive side of his game in Abbotsford.

Yeah that's why I said "Smallish" and not "small" and why I added "non-gritty" because I wouldn't classify Boeser as "Gritty".

Each of those guys if they stood alone and played with bigger gritty players, they would be fine, but we have an over abundance of the same type of the player which makes it an issue. Who is going to go into the boards or corners to retrieve the puck.? That would be an issue playing a team like Vegas. We would never gain control of the puck.

I heard from as season ticket holder that Hogs didn't hold up very well in the playoffs. He has the heart, just not the body make up, unfortunately.

I think he might still work out but we definitely need to thin out the herd with the others though and he might be a cheap alternative to them.

[grandmaster]

My hope is that Petey signs for 9M x 8 and doesn’t squeeze every last bit of Cap space away from this team

[EdgarM]

4 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Seattle and Vegas start with no baggage.

The rebuild should have begun in 2012 after we flamed out against the Kings.  It was clear that core was done.

They decided to give it one more go, fine but after the second year of Willie there should have been a major sell off of anything that could be sold and a proper rebuild started.

They missed the opportunity for a short-cut retool/rebuild whatever this season when we were near the bottom of the league.

The lack of a rebuild and the constant win now at all costs mode has caught up and has given us a decade of futility with the cold comfort of an 11OA with no second rounders the next 2 seasons with a very thin farm system and a pro club lacking at C, D and lacking size and speed on the wing.  Fear not though we will spend more future assets to continue this climb to try to get to the middle.

We shall see, I am thinking by the end of this season , we will see what the intentions of these guys are. The draft will be a good indicator and so we will see soon enough what we should expect. 

I agree with the "no baggage" as well, good point.

[EdgarM]

2 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

My hope is that Petey signs for 9M x 8 and doesn’t squeeze every last bit of Cap space away from this team

Whatever he asks for will determine if he wants the money or a Cup. He is going to be super rich either way. 

[SilentSam]

6 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

My hope is that Petey signs for 9M x 8 and doesn’t squeeze every last bit of Cap space away from this team

My thoughts exactly.

[sxqhfeh]

Petey is going to want 10.5-11+ for 8 years, trade him and the 11th to Ducks for 2OA.

[Gurn]

25 minutes ago, sxqhfeh said:

Petey is going to want 10.5-11+ for 8 years, trade him and the 11th to Ducks for 2OA.

 I might do E.P straight across for the #2; no way I add the 11th pick as well.

 

 

[Gurn]

funny I see this, in various forms, all over this forum

 

"If E.P wants to win a cup he will take less"

 

But I rarely see

"If the team wants to win the cup, they will not over pay their top stars".

 

Like who the heck ever signs for less than they  got offered?

Be it hockey, or any other work of life.

 

[aGENT]

6 hours ago, MeanSeanBean said:

As it sits right now, Canucks are the only team to be projected to be over the cap next season.

While I agree with the general premise (they've thus far failed to clear cap, a stated priority, and good cap management/space IS helpful etc)... but to be fair, that's not really true when you actually look at context of rosters.

 

Tampa "has" $450k of "space", but only 17 roster players.

Boston "has" $4.9m of "space" but only 15 roster players (and MUCH bigger, more expensive, holes to fill)

etc...

 

As of today, with LTIR, we can ice a slightly improved team over last year, with a few mil to maybe target a 3C UFA/trade, as a worst case scenario. If we can either manage to shed cap (Myers after bonus?) or move it around (Garland + Rathbone for a RD for example), we'll be in even better shape to making this roster more competitive this season.

 

But neither the roster, nor the inefficient cap was fixing itself overnight. Especially after committing to extending Miller/being competitive "now" for Petey/Hughes. With Myers and Pearson expiring next year (Poolman the year after), the vast majority of our inefficient cap will be gone, and hopefully a healthy, motivated OEL plays more like 21-22 OEL to minimize that as well. Plus the cap will be rising.

 

It's a bit annoying and less than ideal certainly, but its not really "dire" either.

Edited June 12, 2023 by aGENT

[Gurn]

say how much cap space would the team have, if the management had not signed 

Brock

Miller

Kuzemenko

Mikeheyev.

and a bunch of small salary guys.

 

Who cares- let's just hope Petey takes less, to make up for all the money already spent.

 

 

[Gurn]

8 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Especially after committing to extending Miller/being competitive "now" for Petey/Hughes

Bit of a 'catch 22':

sign those guys, in order to try get competitive, leaving less money for the guy they are supposedly trying to convince to stay.

 

[wai_lai416]

7 hours ago, aGENT said:

Pretty sure we have like $5m of LTIR... Which we're likely going to be in all year, unless we can move Myers post-bonus. So we do have some "cap" to do some of this.

 

But yes, some of this is going to have to be a bit of cap "shell game" with moves like Garland + Rathbone for a RD. And yes that D probably has a bit of an inefficient contract as well. You're not clearing cap space, more so moving it to players at a position of greater need.

we have 5m of LTIR players sure. but let's just say we dont do anything right now and go status quo till the start of the season. we have 5mil worth of ltir 5.75 - whatever we are over by.. and say we lose a player to ltir after the season start like a ep boeser or whatever.. they'll get 0 ltir relief as our ltir is capped at 5mil.. and let say they spent all the 5mil worth of ltir in the summer.. and we lose a player.. we wont even have any cap space to bring in a minimum cap player to replace say a 6-7mil player because we started the season over.

[RomanP]

4 hours ago, JamesB said:

If the Canucks are offered this deal they take it and run (after getting the contract signed ASAP).

 

Petey will come in above this. I am hoping that the minimum 2-digt number (10 million) x 8 might be enough but I wouldn't count on it.

 

One issue is taxes. Florida is a low-tax state. All the Canadian teams are at a disadvantage with high income tax rates and BC is worse than Alberta.

The other issue is that the Cap is expected to rise significantly in the two seasons following 23-24.

It always makes me laugh when people talk about “low tax” in Florida (and some other states). Do you guys realize that US tax structure is very similar to Canadian? There’s a much larger federal income tax that everybody pays. In the US it’s 37% for the tax bracket NHL players are in. I’m not saying state/provincial taxes are not important, but they are much smaller compared to the federal tax.

[aGENT]

29 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

we have 5m of LTIR players sure. but let's just say we dont do anything right now and go status quo till the start of the season. we have 5mil worth of ltir 5.75 - whatever we are over by.. and say we lose a player to ltir after the season start like a ep boeser or whatever.. they'll get 0 ltir relief as our ltir is capped at 5mil.. and let say they spent all the 5mil worth of ltir in the summer.. and we lose a player.. we wont even have any cap space to bring in a minimum cap player to replace say a 6-7mil player because we started the season over.

That's not how LTIR works. 

 

Firstly, IMO we're probably planning on operating in LTIR all year anyway (barring a Myers move after his bonus). So we won't be banking cap regardless (unless, Myers).

 

If we loose Boeser for this season at some point, his cap gets added in to our LTIR pool and we'd have $6.65m on top of our existing ~$5.75M, for a total of $12.4m LTIR space. Plenty of cap to recall a replacement. That's the same reason we were theoretically able to take on cap last TDL (despite being "over").

 

Ideally we move Myers after his bonus and get under the cap where we can both bank space, AND utilize Poolman/Pearson's LTIR at the TDL to take on even more cap (either for futures, and/or as pieces that help us). But we in no way "have" to.

Edited June 12, 2023 by aGENT

[wai_lai416]

9 minutes ago, aGENT said:

That's not how LTIR works. 

 

Firstly, IMO we're probably planning on operating in LTIR all year anyway (barring a Myers move after his bonus). So we won't be banking cap regardless (unless, Myers).

 

If we loose Boeser for this season at some point, his cap gets added in to our LTIR pool and we'd have $6.65m on top of our existing ~$5.75M, for a total of $12.4m LTIR space. Plenty of cap to recall a replacement. That's the same reason we were theoretically able to take on cap last TDL (despite being "over").

 

Ideally we move Myers after his bonus and get under the cap where we can both bank space, AND utilize Poolman/Pearson's LTIR at the TDL to take on even more cap (either for futures, and/or as pieces that help us).

if say we are over the cap by 5mil to start the season your LTIR cap is only going to be 5mil even if u stick 6mil worth of LTIR on it. even if you add 6.65 of boeser it's still going to be 5mil. that's why it's important to get under the cap before the start of the season. your LTIR pool can not be more than what you are over the cap by. we only get 12.4m worth of cap if we started the season under the cap.. otherwise we only have a max LTIR pool of whatever we are over by to start the season and say in this case 5mil we will have a max cap of ~89mil including the LTIR players. and if boeser gets injured too bad our max cap hit is still 89mil. 

 

we dont gain additional LTIR pool until we get under the cap.. LTIR doesn't work like just adding extra LTIR to the pool if we get injured player if you are over the cap to start the season.. whatever you are over the cap by to start the season will be your max LTIR bonus pool until u get under the cap. and say if we don't sign any player and this is our opening day roster and then toss pearson and poolman on LTIR.. our LTIR pool is 600k lol.

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, wai_lai416 said:

if say we are over the cap by 5mil to start the season your LTIR cap is only going to be 5mil even if u stick 6mil worth of LTIR on it. even if you add 6.65 of boeser it's still going to be 5mil. that's why it's important to get under the cap before the start of the season. your LTIR pool can not be more than what you are over the cap by. we only get 12.4m worth of cap if we started the season under the cap.. otherwise we only have a max LTIR pool of whatever we are over by to start the season and say in this case 5mil we will have a max cap of ~89mil including the LTIR players. and if boeser gets injured too bad our max cap hit is still 89mil. 

 

we dont gain additional LTIR pool until we get under the cap.. LTIR doesn't work like just adding extra LTIR to the pool if we get injured player if you are over the cap to start the season.. whatever you are over the cap by to start the season will be your max LTIR bonus pool until u get under the cap. and say if we don't sign any player and this is our opening day roster and then toss pearson and poolman on LTIR.. our LTIR pool is 600k lol.

 

[wai_lai416]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

 

• If a team cannot be cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap. For example, if a team is $3M over the Cap and places a player on LTIR with a $4M Cap Hit for the opening roster submission, the LTIR Pool is the $3M that the team exceeded the cap

Not really that hard to comprehend? you can keep adding players to LTIR and u still only get 3mil

Edited June 12, 2023 by wai_lai416