[Report/Rumour] Elias Pettersson Contract Talks

[Gawdzukes]

6 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

I find a lot of good players dont go on to be good coaches. Roy and Gretzky for example....you dont get better players than that.

Toch has a lot to prove.

 

I find Toch types as great teammates. Not unlike Miller they are get leaders on the ice. 

Behind the bench is a different beast. Have to be able to motivate all types of players. Assests like EP and QH are move valuable than any coach, that's why they get paid like they do. Toch better make sure he can be more than just a hardnosed oldschool type. 

 

 

Roy just won the memorial Cup. You could tell that team was very well coached.  He also wants to return to the NHL.

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/patrick-roy-wants-to-coach-in-nhl-again-but-is-at-peace-with-emotional-past/c-344795208

 

Coaching is something that is tough to gain a handle on. Lots of coaching is dependent on the team you have to work with and ability often coincides with experience and even seasons of losing. It's really hard to judge RT after a 2 year break in coaching and then a return to head coach.

 

Some players need coddling but players also need to buck up, be a man, and do what it takes to win. Personally I have no problem with RT expecting Kuzmenko to buy in and play defence. Expecting to win with your top players being passengers will not produce a winner.

 

Not saying RT is right or wrong, good or bad, but I do personally agree with holding your players accountable. By all reports he is a players coach and committed to building player relationships as the basis to coaching. I think we're gong to see him pull this team together for a good season. I don't think he is simply a stern task-master. I see a pretty astute hockey mind and exactly what the doctor ordered for this core. He definitely had some good things happening after he took over.

[Ghostsof1915]

19 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

I find a lot of good players dont go on to be good coaches. Roy and Gretzky for example....you dont get better players than that.

Toch has a lot to prove.

 

I find Toch types as great teammates. Not unlike Miller they are get leaders on the ice. 

Behind the bench is a different beast. Have to be able to motivate all types of players. Assests like EP and QH are move valuable than any coach, that's why they get paid like they do. Toch better make sure he can be more than just a hardnosed oldschool type. 

 

Roy has won the Memorial Cup as a coach. He wasn't bad when he started at Colorado. But he needed to learn the ropes. He's a pretty solid, if fiery style coach.

[Ghostsof1915]

20 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Don't disagree, but do feel where we are now, we got to see, what they can achieve. 
In saying that, if they don't feel they can give it a proper push, next dead line would be the perfect time to see off the family silver (one could argue, that this TDL was the time to do it, with the draft being so deep), as there are lots of valuable pieces, that could bring in a massive haul. To testart a rebuild.
I'm not in that boat, but we all see it differently. 

We've got some good pieces. And I think JR/PA are bringing more in all the time. But you need quality depth to win the Big Prize. I'm just not sure Vancouver has an answer for some of the heavy hitters in the NHL, at least right now. There's always hope. As you said. Time will tell.

[bishopshodan]

20 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Have you seen any where that Tocchet has said anything bad about Petey? Considering Petey is fine with PK, forechecking, and setting up and scoring on offence. He's even not afraid (but fans are) to lay the body on other players. I'd think he's close to ideal of what RikToc wants.

No I have not.

Just stating my fear regarding Petey and referencing Rick's mess up with Kuz. There was no good reason to get in the way of getting his 40th in his first season, a season where we were not making the dance. However Rick got in the way anyway.

 

17 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

Roy just won the memorial Cup. You could tell that team was very well coached.  He also wants to return to the NHL.

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/patrick-roy-wants-to-coach-in-nhl-again-but-is-at-peace-with-emotional-past/c-344795208

 

Coaching is something that is tough to gain a handle on. Lots of coaching is dependent on the team you have to work with and ability often coincides with experience and even seasons of losing. It's really hard to judge RT after a 2 year break in coaching and then a return to head coach.

 

Some players need coddling but players also need to buck up, be a man, and do what it takes to win. Personally I have no problem with RT expecting Kuzmenko to buy in and play defence. Expecting to win with your top players being passengers will not produce a winner.

 

Not saying RT is right or wrong, good or bad, but I do personally agree with holding your players accountable. By all reports he is a players coach and committed to building player relationships as the basis to coaching. I think we're gong to see him pull this team together for a good season. I don't think he is simply a stern task-master. I see a pretty astute hockey mind and exactly what the doctor ordered for this core. He definitely had some good things happening after he took over.

Yep, It's taking Roy a while. He had to lose his chip on his shoulder and realise that being a good player doesn't equate to being a good coach. Wonder if he will get another crack at the NHL. 

 

17 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Roy has won the Memorial Cup as a coach. He wasn't bad when he started at Colorado. But he needed to learn the ropes. He's a pretty solid, if fiery style coach.

He did need to learn the ropes. Too cocky. 

[spook007]

20 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

We've got some good pieces. And I think JR/PA are bringing more in all the time. But you need quality depth to win the Big Prize. I'm just not sure Vancouver has an answer for some of the heavy hitters in the NHL, at least right now. There's always hope. As you said. Time will tell.

Yes I think, we need a few more heavies, that can play too... hopefully Podz take a step and Klim too... we need them to play to their size. 

[Jester13]

1 hour ago, bishopshodan said:

I dont know if re-signing EP will be all that easy.

 

He doesn't seem like a Tocchet type to me.

He's hard enough on himself, he's a carrot guy that will never need to recieve the stick. 

He also has talent above anything Rick had. He saw how the coach treated Kuz ....I bet it gives him some pause for consideration.

I don't even think Kuz was upset with how Rick "treated" him. He understood, soaked up the advice, and tried harder. 

[Coconuts]

3 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

There's almost no incentive for Petey and his agent to push for a deal this summer.  

 

Or even before next spring tbh, it's either sign Pettersson or trade him and if the idea is to compete trading him would be a disaster. 

 

Even if he doesn't duplicate his 100 point season he's got the Canucks by the balls, why wouldn't he cash in on a rising cap? Stars always end up reaping the benefits of more cap space. A rising cap doesn't necessarily give teams the flex some folks think it does, it just means contracts go up across the board.

 

The cap will continue to rise going forward short of another widespread economic disaster, Pettersson won't be able to capitalize on those increases though, all the more reason to capitalize now. I mean, unless he signs a short to medium term deal, which may very well be in his own best interest.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Coconuts

[wai_lai416]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Or even before next spring tbh, it's either sign Pettersson or trade him and if the idea is to compete trading him would be a disaster. 

 

Even if he doesn't duplicate his 100 point season he's got the Canucks by the balls, why wouldn't he cash in on a rising cap? Stars always end up reaping the benefits of more cap space. A rising cap doesn't necessarily give teams the flex some folks think it does, it just means contracts go up across the board.

yup ppl keep using other people's cap hit as comparables.. when they should be using % of cap hit as comparables

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, wai_lai416 said:

yup ppl keep using other people's cap hit as comparables.. when they should be using % of cap hit as comparables

Pretty much. Dude is going to get paid, and he'll likely get full value or slightly less. Anyone who's paid attention to signings around the league for any length of time should probably understand that most star players do not take significant discounts, I don't know why folks expect that Pettersson will.

[grandmaster]

7 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Pretty much. Dude is going to get paid, and he'll likely get full value or slightly less. Anyone who's paid attention to signings around the league for any length of time should probably understand that most star players do not take significant discounts, I don't know why folks expect that Pettersson will.

MacKinnon did when he signed his 6M x 7 years. He is doing ok now though.

 

Sid also gave and still gives a big discount at his 8.7M for last 15 or so years 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by grandmaster

[Coconuts]

2 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

MacKinnon did when he signed his 6M x 7 years. He is doing ok now though.

 

Sid also gave and still gives a big discount at his 8.7M for last 15 or so years 

 

 

When Sid signed his deal it took up a much larger chunk of cap space than it does now. 

 

When Mac signed his 6.3M cap hit deal that began in the 16-17 season he was coming off 52 points in 72 games. The season prior to that he'd put up 38 in 64. Season prior to that, his rookie season, he'd put up 63 in 82. When Mac signed that deal he was likely getting fair market value. The MacKinnon argument in itself is a bit of a myth that way, folks make it out as if he took a discount when he didn't. What actually happened was the Avs wound up being extremely fortunate when MacKinnon blew tf up. 

 

The season after he signed, the 16-17 season, he actually put up 53 points in 82 games. At the time he wasn't blowing anyone away as a former 1OA pick. It wasn't until the season after, the 17-18 season, that the MacKinnon we've grown accustomed to seeing arrived with 97 points in 74 games. 

[bishopshodan]

45 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

I don't even think Kuz was upset with how Rick "treated" him. He understood, soaked up the advice, and tried harder. 

How would we really know?

I'd be surprised if any first year player would come out publicly against a brand new coach.

 

Kuz is something though. His talent is obvious, but more than that is his attitude. He is personality is absolutely electrifying. I bet he is a real energy in that room and it is no surprise that he became a fan fave. 

 

Tochhet is so lucky to be nepo-gifted this squad. 

[bishopshodan]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I agree.  Tocchet played with Wayne and Mario.  So not sure why someone would think Petey is not a Tocchet guy.  That is a weird assessment.  Tocchet knows he needs superstars to win the cup.  He knows this firsthand as he played with 5 of the greatest players of all time in Wayne, Mario, Jagr, Francis and Kurri...

Talking about me but not to me. Nice style. My opinion might be different than yours but calling it weird is uneeded. 

 

I addressed why it think in such a way, with a Kuz example. Meanwhile Dakota Joshua gets treated like gold. 

 

Also, playing with great players or even being a great player doesnt mean your a going to be a great coach. 

So far Ricks head coaching record is losing one. Our brass did not do their due diligence and try to hire the best candidate, they nepo-hired this guy.

 

Perspective/

[spook007]

24 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

How would we really know?

I'd be surprised if any first year player would come out publicly against a brand new coach.

 

Kuz is something though. His talent is obvious, but more than that is his attitude. He is personality is absolutely electrifying. I bet he is a real energy in that room and it is no surprise that he became a fan fave. 

 

Tochhet is so lucky to be nepo-gifted this squad. 

This part nobody could ever argue.... 

A bit like AV, when he took over... 

[IBatch]

26 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

How would we really know?

I'd be surprised if any first year player would come out publicly against a brand new coach.

 

Kuz is something though. His talent is obvious, but more than that is his attitude. He is personality is absolutely electrifying. I bet he is a real energy in that room and it is no surprise that he became a fan fave. 

 

Tochhet is so lucky to be nepo-gifted this squad. 

Good grief.  Get it.  You're not a fan of Tochett.   Not sure why.   Didn't you enjoy how those guys played the game?   

Would rather trust Tochett with these things.   Let's give him some time before throwing him out.   To me that's at least 2 maybe 3 years.   Did Tochett beat you up and steal your lunch money or something as kid?  This isn't a nursery school sport.   Let's give the guy a chance at least first.   We don't have any clue what's going on in that locker room.   Maybe he's a total goof who won't shut up after scoring a goal.    As for Joshua, maybe Tochett was just trying something out.  

[wai_lai416]

50 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

MacKinnon did when he signed his 6M x 7 years. He is doing ok now though.

 

Sid also gave and still gives a big discount at his 8.7M for last 15 or so years 

 

 

i dunno what discount you are referring to.. sid when he signed his first contract was 17.3% of the total cap hit and then followed by 14.5% that's pretty much as much as they'll get for a player signing a max length contract 14-15% of the cap hit

 

mackinnon took the safe route.. 6.3mil for a 50 point guy? that haven't really showed much progress in the first 3 years of his career? his contract really is not much difference from jack hughes.. 6.3mil and 8.5mil 6-7 years later is very similar.. out performing their contract doesn't = they gave a discount

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

if you don't think players factor in how much they actually earn then everyone wouldn't be lining up to sign in the sunshine states or low tax city. teams and teammates makes a significant difference.. EP probably could have made the team at 18 but he choose not to. having linemates that are well over a ppg u don't think makes a difference? u can hate marchand all you want.. bergeron and marchand will be better than any player EP will ever play with in his career. EP legit makes his linemate better. i'm not sure the same can be said about pasta.. and we are going to see whether he can do it by himself when boston no longer have legit top line centers.

Just to be perfectly clear, i've been talking about taxes since I joined the CDC.   And been pounding sand (mostly on my own until the last couple of years), showing the differences in net pay (hint McDavid makes less than Bobrovsky!) and how tough it is for clubs like Van, OTT, TO and MTL to get blue chip to high end talent, especially the last four or five years.    Before covid.   That said, I don't think EPs' a 12 million dollar player.   Even when you factor taxes into it.     Agents always do cap percentages.  Something i've also been talking about for over a decade now.    Our club, can't afford EP at 12 unless he's a 40 plus goal scorer and 115 plus guy.   Right away.   Or 55/45 100 point guy.   So far he's done it once.   We can't throw money out.   

[wai_lai416]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Good grief.  Get it.  You're not a fan of Tochett.   Not sure why.   Didn't you enjoy how those guys played the game?   

Would rather trust Tochett with these things.   Let's give him some time before throwing him out.   To me that's at least 2 maybe 3 years.   Did Tochett beat you up and steal your lunch money or something as kid?  This isn't a nursery school sport.   Let's give the guy a chance at least first.   We don't have any clue what's going on in that locker room.   Maybe he's a total goof who won't shut up after scoring a goal.    As for Joshua, maybe Tochett was just trying something out.  

well considering we tossed out boudreau in 1 year and 1 month.. technically less than 1 year because the management already made it well known around the league in november. I'd give tochett as long of a leash lol.. the games he coached against playoff calibers teams i wasn't really a big fan of.. we were average almost 35 shots against and that's not including blocked shots.. advance stats also shows we were abysmal against them. we were badly outchanced 

[wai_lai416]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Just to be perfectly clear, i've been talking about taxes since I joined the CDC.   And been pounding sand (mostly on my own until the last couple of years), showing the differences in net pay (hint McDavid makes less than Bobrovsky!) and how tough it is for clubs like Van, OTT, TO and MTL to get blue chip to high end talent, especially the last four or five years.    Before covid.   That said, I don't think EPs' a 12 million dollar player.   Even when you factor taxes into it.     Agents always do cap percentages.  Something i've also been talking about for over a decade now.    Our club, can't afford EP at 12 unless he's a 40 plus goal scorer and 115 plus guy.   Right away.   Or 55/45 100 point guy.   So far he's done it once.   We can't throw money out.   

that's the reality of a bad team for a decade.. gotta pay to keep your talent.. if the team was good or on the cupse of becoming something good.. he might have signed for 10-10.5mil.. reality is this team is not and probably not even close to being a contender anytime soon.. there's not that many new jersey out there annually missing the playoff and all of a sudden become a contender.. if i'm going to hitch myself to a team throughout my entire prime that have a murky and unknown future.. damn straight he's going to milk every penny out of it.. you can't look at this teams future and say with a straight face the future is bright.. coz it really isn't.. we wasted the last couple of years being bad where we could have sold off aimed for a higher draft pick stockpile some prospects that probably could have made an impact in a couple of years.. even with willander lemm and raty we are still ranked in the bottom 3 of the league in prospects.. kinda sad and embarassing for an annual non playoff team.

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

No I have not.

Just stating my fear regarding Petey and referencing Rick's mess up with Kuz. There was no good reason to get in the way of getting his 40th in his first season, a season where we were not making the dance. However Rick got in the way anyway.

 

Yep, It's taking Roy a while. He had to lose his chip on his shoulder and realise that being a good player doesn't equate to being a good coach. Wonder if he will get another crack at the NHL. 

 

He did need to learn the ropes. Too cocky. 

I would think admitting he made a mistake goes a long way to getting another chance. It's no question he is very smart, and in my opinion the best goalie I have ever seen (Lindbergh). His dedication is obvious if he can overcome his cockiness I could see him in the NHL again.