[PDF] Vegas Golden Knights (P1) vs. Edmonton Oilers (P2) | Golden Knights win series 4-2

[Elias Pettersson]

7 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

And Erik Karlsson is a 100 point player on a non-playoff team who could win the Norris trophy.  I'm not sure that suddenly qualifies him to be playoff material.

 

It's a team game, more than any other in sports.  McDavid vs Eichel is a sensationalist narrative.  The Oilers as a team got outscored, not just any individual.  When I watch hockey I see team systems going against each other until one breaks down.  Sometimes neither side crumbles and it's just a lucky bounce that leads to a win.  Getting on the powerplay isn't a McDavid strategy - it's a Woodcroft strategy.  Just like how Vegas' disciplined comeback this year shows how good of a coach Cassidy is.  Vegas didn't win because Eichel was better than McDavid.  They won because the whole team showed up while Edmonton's didn't.  In fact, the best player on Vegas was obviously Hill.

 

But if you really want to get to individual stats... McDavid got 20 points in 12 playoff games.  That's less than last year but still remarkable.  He did get to go on the powerplay against Vegas (as disciplined as they are) and he scored a lot.  Doesnt matter how the points came - he outscored Eichel by a lot too.  If I score two powerplay goals and you score one at even strength, who made the bigger impact on the game's outcome?

 

McDavid has also proven himself to be a pretty effective penalty killer by being a constant scoring threat even while shorthanded.  If he was forced to adopt a different playstyle by a new coach, McDavid could absolutely adjust his game.  But that is a coaching decision, not an individual one.

 

Again.  Put McDavid on any team and he will naturally draw penalties because of his explosive playstyle.  You're treating that like it's a flaw.  Pettersson is also excellent at drawing penalties because of how elusive he is.  Is that bad?  As for him being Selke level, I recall you posting a very biased article and treating it like gospel.  He'll get there eventually but this year's numbers did not earn him a nomination.  Those are hard facts.

Again, you are pointing out the PP as the reason for a player's success.  This doesn't work as well in the playoffs when not as many PP's are called, especially in the later rounds when the better teams are playing.  In the playoffs, I'll take the even strength scorer who knows how to backcheck ahead of any PP specialist.  

 

Eichel played better than McDavid, why can't you see that?  Is it because you only look at the flash and dash and the total points scored?  Is that how you are supposed to evaluate players?  Eichel scored 12 points at even strength, McDavid scored 8.  Eichel was a +9, McDavid was 0.  Eichel had 6 blocks, McDavid had 3.  You keep looking only at total points.  Which is the easy way out and not a great way to evaluate someone's overall game.

 

I have a hard time believing that McDavid can play the same way in a different, more responsible defensive structure, which is what you need to win playoff games.  I'd love to see McDavid and Draisaitl playing under Tocchet.  I wonder how many times both players would be benched for refusing to backcheck.  Kuzmenko was scoring at will under Boudreau.  As soon as Tocchet came in, he had to change his game which affected his play.  The same would happen with McDavid and Draisaitl.  If they actually want to win a cup then they will need to sacrifice their offence and point totals.  Are they willing to do that?  Will they find a coach who can convince them to do this?  We will see...

[iceman64]

27 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Well, I think we're just going back and forth here, so I'll make two points and call it a discussion:

 

1 - I think Edmonton is still playing if they get decent goaltending.

2 - I think a lot of people here are influenced by their dislike of the team.

Ummm yes I do hate Edm BUT that's what you get when you pay 2 players that much money, the depth around will be exposed every time.

[rekker]

54 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

The NHL really needs to crack down.  5 minutes and a game for diving, with repeat offenders getting suspended would be the right idea.  The Oilers and their outright refusal to play like men is a disgrace to the sport, but it will continue until the league stops rewarding these gutless floppers. 

It's been a pet peave of mine for quite sometime. Not just Oilers, penalize the blatant dives. NHL is better than that crap. 

[johngould21]

14 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

Ummm yes I do hate Edm BUT that's what you get when you pay 2 players that much money, the depth around will be exposed every time.

Or, in the TML's case, 4 of them.

[Doxm]

Man it feels good to see the Oilers lose living in AB 

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, johngould21 said:

153 points mean nothing. This is the most difficult trophy in all of sports to win. All you need is a spot in the playoffs and anything could happen. It's a team game, and teams that are built for the grind, usually win. This shows you how teams can shut superstars down in the playoffs, and how teams are built. Two teams with 4-6 players earning most of the salary cap, that have AHL goalies and suspect defense shouldn't win either. That's you Oilers and Leafs.

I was at the last Leaf game in Vancouver, a Canuck team that didn't make the playoffs beat them in all aspects of the game. Right now, I'd take EP over Matthews, or Marner, or Tavares any day.

We have seen EP one time come post season, and he's barely had to play a full season more than a couple times so far.   Not saying I don't agree with your either, but we should respect Tavares a little at least.   He's played a lot of games, not really his fault NYI sucked when there, he did his part.    Marner and Mathews a little less.   EP when he gets his turn, then we can actually judge him.  The bubble was for sure a good start.  

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, iceman64 said:

Ummm yes I do hate Edm BUT that's what you get when you pay 2 players that much money, the depth around will be exposed every time.

Draisaitl isn't that far off from McKinnon really.   For sure he's adding quite a bit of extra cash in then kitty for depth.  

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Darius said:

This is why im not buying the "McDavid is better than Gretzky" arguments i see (admittedly mostly from younger fans).  Gretzky could play 4 d chess out there, 5 v 5 he was amazing.  

 

When I see McDavid im thinking "a better version of Bure and Selanne".  Would love to have seen what the latter 2 would do with no two line off side, no clutch and grab, no opposing team goon trying to kill you.  Granted today the D men are more mobile and goaltending is better but Selanne got 76 goals as a rookie.   

 

McDavid is no Gretzky, hell he might not even be the best overall player on his own team.  Drai looks scarier in the playoffs.

Anyone that thinks McDavid is better then Gretzky wasn't watching Gretzky.   It's just a stupid debate.   Gretzky was the most dominant athlete in pro sports history - any sport.   So far McDavid is just fast and gets his points.   Yzerman was super fast and got his points too - and they didn't win until he started to play the other side of the puck. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Anyone that thinks McDavid is better then Gretzky wasn't watching Gretzky.   It's just a stupid debate.   Gretzky was the most dominant athlete in pro sports history - any sport.   So far McDavid is just fast and gets his points.   Yzerman was super fast and got his points too - and they didn't win until he started to play the other side of the puck. 

Ruth dominated too. I think he hit more home runs in some seasons than a lot of other clubs totalled. Gretzky and The Bambino. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Ruth dominated too. I think he hit more home runs in some seasons than a lot of other clubs totalled. Gretzky and The Bambino. 

Babe Ruth dominated *IN PITCHING* as well before he was put out into the field.  If fact, he held on to the record for scoreless innings *AS A PITCHER* in the world series for a long time..  Yeah the talent pool was diluted because of the color barrier but he had nothing to do with that.  Fact is, he might've eventually gone into the hall of fame as a pitcher.  He was THAT good.  It would be like if Gretzky played in net and got a shutout.

 

This is what put Ruth on a whole other level compared to say, Bobby Bonds imho.

Edited May 15, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Pure961089]

I think the Canucks can look at the the Oilers and the Leafs as examples of what not to do for building a team.  The thing these 2 teams have in common is their forwards don't come back to help out their defence and their goalie on a consistent basis.  Under Tocchet Miller played his best 200 foot 2 way hockey as a Canuck.  It's the system and the structure.  I love the direction the Canucks are headed.  In the mold of the Panthers with structure and forwards coming back. Look at Petey, a defensive forward you can build around.  Leafs and Oilers have all the talent in the world but defence wins championships . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Ruth dominated too. I think he hit more home runs in some seasons than a lot of other clubs totalled. Gretzky and The Bambino. 

Until foreman steroid boy came to town.   Really it's probably between Gretzky and Jordan.   Solid edge to Gretzky though.  Like the guys the stars back then said "when everyone else was scoring 100, Gretzky was scoring 200".  Nobody in sports history made it that ridiculous.  Mario and Orr came close.  But even Orr, Coffey matched him season to season. 

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Anyone that thinks McDavid is better then Gretzky wasn't watching Gretzky.   It's just a stupid debate.   Gretzky was the most dominant athlete in pro sports history - any sport.   So far McDavid is just fast and gets his points.   Yzerman was super fast and got his points too - and they didn't win until he started to play the other side of the puck. 

BINGO!!!!  Love that comparison.  Yzerman was a thing of beauty when he was younger, but didn't win anything until him and his team learned how to backcheck.  And Yzerman did learn.  He learned so well he won the Selke trophy.  Sakic didn't really have to learn because he had Foppa around to take all the hard matchups.  Similar with Yzerman who had Fedorov.  Gretzky even had Messier.  Problem with McDavid is he has Draisiaitl who is just as bad defensively.  He was a -4 just last night.

 

Wayne Gretzky is my all time favourite player.  When people of today say McDavid is at his level there are two things I do.  One is I laugh my head off, second is I know that person is under the age of 30 and definitely never watched Gretzky play hockey at all, only the YouTube videos and looking at stats.  Gretzky was able to elevate the players around him.  He was able to play at a high level even in the playoffs when he had players shadowing him all game long.  He thought the game better than anyone, the greatest hockey IQ in NHL history by far, no one else even in the same solar system.  I feel bad for anyone who didn't get to see Gretzky actually play.  The memories will live with me forever...

 

As for Petey, he has already learned to play the right way.  He can lead us to victory in the playoffs.  We just have to get there really.  He is a force of nature, and probably underrated around the league.  He is a better version of Pavel Datsyuk.  And Datsyuk was great at both ends of the ice.

 

As for McDavid, if Petey was his wingman and not Draisaitl, the storyline might change.  I don't think it is possible for McDavid to change his game.  He is just not built to be a good defensive player.  He has gotten better at it over the years, I won't deny him that.  But he's just not wired to play defence, not at a high level anyways.  He would be better off if the Oilers traded Draisaitl for a legit 2C who can defend, and some help on defence.  Even the Oilers of the 80's didn't win it all until they brought in some more defensive minded forwards.  

[Elias Pettersson]

15 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Ruth dominated too. I think he hit more home runs in some seasons than a lot of other clubs totalled. Gretzky and The Bambino. 

I would put Michael Jordan in that category too.  And Tiger Woods...

[Kragar]

27 minutes ago, IBatch said:

We have seen EP one time come post season, and he's barely had to play a full season more than a couple times so far.   Not saying I don't agree with your either, but we should respect Tavares a little at least.   He's played a lot of games, not really his fault NYI sucked when there, he did his part.    Marner and Mathews a little less.   EP when he gets his turn, then we can actually judge him.  The bubble was for sure a good start.  

Respect Tavares how?  He's a decent player, and someone I used to really respect.  Can't remember if it was sometime on the Olympic team that he slacked off, or if it was some dirty play in NHL play, but something caused me to stop liking him as a player.

 

He wasn't worth 11M AAV when he signed his contract, and he really isn't worth it now.  Ultimately, that's on Sherman Peabody for offering the contract in the first place, but it counts when considering the value of a player.

 

If Petey continues on his track, he is a better value, even assuming he's getting 10-12 AAV in his next contract.  If EP signs for 8 years, he will be 2 years younger than Tavares was when Dubas pulled him away from the Isles, and taking a smaller percentage if cap while doing it.  If he signs well north of 12M, then there's room for debate.

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I would put Michael Jordan in that category too.  And Tiger Woods...

Ruth hit more homers than other clubs. Those other guys are all great too, of course. Jack Nicklaus won 18 majors and finished 2nd a lot too. Wilt Chamberlain dominated basketball. Gretzky is in a group of great athletes who dominated their sports. McDsvid isn’t. 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Alflives

[Elias Pettersson]

12 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Until foreman steroid boy came to town.   Really it's probably between Gretzky and Jordan.   Solid edge to Gretzky though.  Like the guys the stars back then said "when everyone else was scoring 100, Gretzky was scoring 200".  Nobody in sports history made it that ridiculous.  Mario and Orr came close.  But even Orr, Coffey matched him season to season. 

Remember when they split up Gretzky's goals and assists in hockey pools?  You couldn't just take Gretzky first overall, the advantage was too unfair.  You had to split him up into two players.  If I won the hockey pool, I would always take Gretzky's assists.  I think he would have won the Art Ross trophy at least 3 times with only his assists.  

 

1985-86

Gretzky 163 assists

Lemieux - 141 points 

 

1986-87

Gretzky - 121 assists

Kurri - 108 points

 

1982-83

Gretzky - 125 assists

Stastny - 124 points

 

1984-85

Gretzky - 135 assists

Kurri - 135 points

 

That is completely insane and not of this world.  One more thing.  If people say Gretzky was a product of the Oilers, just remember he won THREE scoring titles while playing for LA.  And the last kicker.  He won his last scoring title at age 33, beating out a 24 year old Sergei Fedorov.  

 

Gretzky was definitely the most dominate athlete of all time IMO...

 

[EP Phone Home]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Ruth hit more homers than other clubs. Those other guys are all great too, of course. Jack Nicklaus won 18 majors and finished 2nd a lot too. Wilt Chamberlain dominated basketball. Gretzky is in a group of great athletes who dominated their sports. McDsvid isn’t. 

 

Hi Alf, did you take your old bottles to the bottle depot for some coin? They didn’t predict what you claimed unfortunately with your leafs losing buddy. But at least you get a bit of money towards a new bottle to speak sweet Stanley secrets to you 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Again, you are pointing out the PP as the reason for a player's success.  This doesn't work as well in the playoffs when not as many PP's are called, especially in the later rounds when the better teams are playing.  In the playoffs, I'll take the even strength scorer who knows how to backcheck ahead of any PP specialist.  

 

Eichel played better than McDavid, why can't you see that?  Is it because you only look at the flash and dash and the total points scored?  Is that how you are supposed to evaluate players?  Eichel scored 12 points at even strength, McDavid scored 8.  Eichel was a +9, McDavid was 0.  Eichel had 6 blocks, McDavid had 3.  You keep looking only at total points.  Which is the easy way out and not a great way to evaluate someone's overall game.

 

I have a hard time believing that McDavid can play the same way in a different, more responsible defensive structure, which is what you need to win playoff games.  I'd love to see McDavid and Draisaitl playing under Tocchet.  I wonder how many times both players would be benched for refusing to backcheck.  Kuzmenko was scoring at will under Boudreau.  As soon as Tocchet came in, he had to change his game which affected his play.  The same would happen with McDavid and Draisaitl.  If they actually want to win a cup then they will need to sacrifice their offence and point totals.  Are they willing to do that?  Will they find a coach who can convince them to do this?  We will see...

The flash and dash of points scored.... okay.

 

I'm simply saying it's absurd to disqualify power play production for its own sake.  Look at our own team.  The power play is a massive reason for J.T. Miller's success in Vancouver.  If he scores 3 points in a playoff game, all on the powerplay, do they not count?  You keep pointing out even strength points and treat them differently than total points, which simply doesn't make sense.  A goal is a goal.  Even though Vegas is very disciplined and avoids penalties, McDavid still managed to produce in the few opportunities his team had.  Give credit where it's due.

 

I'm not a huge McDavid lover nor am I a big fan of the Oilers.  I'm just neutral on the matter.  I don't care who advances after the Canucks are out.  But you keep suggesting he's not a good defensive player and never backchecks.  That's a completely false assessment ignoring the fact that McDavid has massively improved his defensive game in the past few years.  He isn't perfect by any means but his xGA has improved.  His RAPM GA/60 has improved.  All his defensive metrics are up while maintaining the scoring title three years in a row.  I feel like you're not looking at either player (Edmonton's McDavid or Vancouver's Pettersson) objectively.  McDavid is by all standards the best player in the NHL.  But he was not on the best team in the NHL.  He was also not the best player in the series.  That's it.  Dumping on his defense or making EP40 comparisons is where things get ridiculous.

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, EP Phone Home said:

Hi Alf, did you take your old bottles to the bottle depot for some coin? They didn’t predict what you claimed unfortunately with your leafs losing buddy. But at least you get a bit of money towards a new bottle to speak sweet Stanley secrets to you 

I traded those old empties for a quality paper bag!