awalk Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, Coconuts said: I wish we'd do like some of the other teams around the league and actually keep some cap space available. Spending to the cap hasn't done much for us at all the past ten years or so. I think coming out of the lock out when the cap was first implemented, it was a point of pride for the organization to be a "spend to the cap" team, and they just never adjusted to understand that cap space has a significant amount of value, especially when you are not a playoff team. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, Warhippy said: And there in lies the rub. When you go back to 2013 and look at the teams that have consistently drafted top 10. It's kind of an indictment Buffalo Florida Edmonton Colorado Tampa Carolina New York New Jersey Toronto Columbus Arizona Philly Ottawa Vancouver ALL of these teams in the last 10 years have drafted top 10 a minimum of 3+ times. For some of them they were on the tail end of a decade long run of failure or just had some down years or they got some lottery luck. They are the ones crossed out. When you look at that list, which team stands out as having the worst draft success, worst draft capital yet still spending to the cap every single year with the least success for it? So basically Buffalo, Columbus, Arizona, Philly and Ottawa have all drafted in the top 10 at least 3 times in the last decade and they all still suck. So, what has drafting in the top 10 on a regular basis accomplished for them? Are they any better ahead than us? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, Warhippy said: OK, so taking away career years and suprise production from Kuzmenko, Petey, Hughes. lets shake this out. Canucks at 12th overall in league scoring with 270 goals. Lost Horvat -31 goals. Losing Boeser -18 goals. Call Kuzmenko to have a sophomore slump 28 goals (loss of 11 goals) Pettersson to drop down to a 30 goal player as well (loss of 9 goals) 69 lost goals scored. Yes that is the absolute high end and yes it is not generally fair to utilize Horvats monstrous pre trade production etc. I am just playing devils advocate here because I also see Boeser as being the most logical piece to move. But losing say 60-70 goals worth of production from season start to season start puts a 12th place in overall scoring Canucks team down to a bottom 8 team in the entire league. While again not exactly fair, even losing 40 goals worth of production makes the Canucks a bottom 8 team. the levels of production have got to be far more evenly distributed but they haven't been at all over the past few seasons. We saw some increased 4th line production this year for sure, but not appreciably and again it fell on the top 4-5 players to produce. Losing Boeser means that it is now 4 players. Hughes, Miller, Petey Kuzmenko. While Boeser is not a driver as it was his numbers indicate he is a far more effective passer than some credit him for with 37 assists this year, 24 of them being primary. We just have to know that once he's gone he's gone. The canucks production could take a hit and without the depth to supplement it and without more career years from our top 4 producers we will slide. Didn't we also give up close to the most goals in modern history or something? I'd rather the team get the goals down and that would offset some of the production. I think even a moderate player puts up close to the same amount of points once you factor in his PP production as well. I think Beauvillier, a healthy Mik, and a PP replacement can almost provide that on their own. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awalk Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Pretty sure that Jim Rutherford already explained the plan to the fanbase. Did you miss his interview? You may not like what is going on, but we are not rebuilding. We are retooling on the fly. Getting Hronek was just the first step. There is alot more to come... "Retooling on the Fly" is Swedish for "Perpetual Mediocrity" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 12 minutes ago, awalk said: Sounds like a team committed to a cycle of mediocrity . Yup, just blindly running headfirst with their hands over their ears yelling Charge It, to our cap structure in 2-4 years we don't care about anything but noooooooooooow! Lol, his response says it all. We have no money right now. We don't care though, we're spending money on something, we have no clue what, but it will be significant. And people wonder why we struggle. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awalk Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: Yup, just blindly running headfirst with their hands over their ears yelling Charge It, to our cap structure in 2-4 years we don't care about anything but noooooooooooow! Lol, his response says it all. We have no money right now. We don't care though, we're spending money on something, we have no clue what, but it will be significant. And people wonder why we struggle. We're gonna do so many THINGS. You just wait. It's gonna be amazing. Significantly so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 18 minutes ago, Coconuts said: I wish we'd do like some of the other teams around the league and actually keep some cap space available. Spending to the cap hasn't done much for us at all the past ten years or so. Yup, we've been rinsing and repeating the same cycle. Things for the most part never work out exactly as planned. That's why you need cap space when building ... so you can address the areas big or small that didn't quite go as planned the year before as you near competitiveness. Since we just spend to the cap every year we don't have the ability to do this. Then we waste the next year trying to figure out how to unravel parts and create cap. Once we waste assets doing that then we spend to the cap again and figure we're set, find out we aren't, and then repeat the cycle again the following year. It's beyond nauseating at this point. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: Yup, we've been rinsing and repeating the same cycle. Things for the most part never work out exactly as planned. That's why you need cap space when building ... so you can address the areas big or small that didn't quite go as planned the year before as you near competitiveness. Since we just spend to the cap every year we don't have the ability to do this. Then we waste the next year trying to figure out how to unravel parts and create cap. Once we waste assets doing that then we spend to the cap again and figure we're set, find out we aren't, and then repeat the cycle again the following year. It's beyond nauseating at this point. Yup, it was one thing back in the later 2000's and early 2010's when it seemed like we were on the cusp of something but we haven't been in that position in a long time. We've had management figures determined to spend to the hilt, doesn't seem like this management is any different in that regard. It's nice that we have an ownership group willing to do so but that doesn't necessarily mean we have to. Edited May 25, 2023 by Coconuts 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxVerstappen33 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 Maybe we could trade this pick for Cody Glass...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: So basically Buffalo, Columbus, Arizona, Philly and Ottawa have all drafted in the top 10 at least 3 times in the last decade and they all still suck. So, what has drafting in the top 10 on a regular basis accomplished for them? Are they any better ahead than us? We have a better hockey team than Arizona (not for long) for sure and probably Philly. The rest are close but they have infinitely more (quality) prospects, picks, and cap space. I'd rather be in any of these teams shoes besides the fact I am biased and I love having Petterson on the team. 44 minutes ago, awalk said: I think coming out of the lock out when the cap was first implemented, it was a point of pride for the organization to be a "spend to the cap" team, and they just never adjusted to understand that cap space has a significant amount of value, especially when you are not a playoff team. Good point. Edited May 25, 2023 by Gawdzukes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSVII Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 54 minutes ago, awalk said: I think coming out of the lock out when the cap was first implemented, it was a point of pride for the organization to be a "spend to the cap" team, and they just never adjusted to understand that cap space has a significant amount of value, especially when you are not a playoff team. If there's one thing I want to change in the organizations DNA. It is this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: So basically Buffalo, Columbus, Arizona, Philly and Ottawa have all drafted in the top 10 at least 3 times in the last decade and they all still suck. So, what has drafting in the top 10 on a regular basis accomplished for them? Are they any better ahead than us? Philly won the draft and really just started down that road. ottawa went to the ECF before blowing it all up and has actually drafted only twice thus far in the top 10 over the last few years due to trading a pick to Arizona and Colorado. Columbus has arguably some of the best prospect depth in the entire league right now and aside from chemistry issues, bad goaltending and insanely bad injury issues this year is vastly better than their record suggests Buffalo has already taken the next step and is just missing a piece or two but drafted similarly to us while also lucking out with two 1st overall picks Arizona is a mess but the moment they move they'll catch fire because they; again are deeper than us and have that cap space to play with. While we have drafted comparably, all of those teams barring Columbus have more cap space than us; all but Arizona have won as many or more playoff series as we have in the last decade ish and all of them are deeper, younger and have better draft capital than us. When you ask if they are any better ahead of us, look at the rosters, cap space and records over the last ten years vs their trajectory. Then compare it to ours. After you've done that. You tell me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Gawdzukes said: Didn't we also give up close to the most goals in modern history or something? I'd rather the team get the goals down and that would offset some of the production. I think even a moderate player puts up close to the same amount of points once you factor in his PP production as well. I think Beauvillier, a healthy Mik, and a PP replacement can almost provide that on their own. Close yes. While shoring up the defensive game is essential; losing so much production that we slip to the bottom 10 in the league is just trading green apples for red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Philly won the draft and really just started down that road. ottawa went to the ECF before blowing it all up and has actually drafted only twice thus far in the top 10 over the last few years due to trading a pick to Arizona and Colorado. Columbus has arguably some of the best prospect depth in the entire league right now and aside from chemistry issues, bad goaltending and insanely bad injury issues this year is vastly better than their record suggests Buffalo has already taken the next step and is just missing a piece or two but drafted similarly to us while also lucking out with two 1st overall picks Arizona is a mess but the moment they move they'll catch fire because they; again are deeper than us and have that cap space to play with. While we have drafted comparably, all of those teams barring Columbus have more cap space than us; all but Arizona have won as many or more playoff series as we have in the last decade ish and all of them are deeper, younger and have better draft capital than us. When you ask if they are any better ahead of us, look at the rosters, cap space and records over the last ten years vs their trajectory. Then compare it to ours. After you've done that. You tell me Wich of those teams have an alien? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pure961089 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Warhippy said: And there in lies the rub. When you go back to 2013 and look at the teams that have consistently drafted top 10. It's kind of an indictment Buffalo Florida Edmonton Colorado Tampa Carolina New York New Jersey Toronto Columbus Arizona Philly Ottawa Vancouver ALL of these teams in the last 10 years have drafted top 10 a minimum of 3+ times. For some of them they were on the tail end of a decade long run of failure or just had some down years or they got some lottery luck. They are the ones crossed out. When you look at that list, which team stands out as having the worst draft success, worst draft capital yet still spending to the cap every single year with the least success for it? Edit*. Even more, out of all of those only one team has consistently either traded their first or 2nd round picks, or managed to flub a first round pick. Hint, it rhymes with no-funcouver Drafting is only half of it, the other half is development. If you have a good scouting staff but have an incompetent development staff it doesn't matter if it's a top 10 pick. Unless the player drafted is a special self motivated talent like Petey and Hughes (a top 5 talent) your top 10 picks will flounder. I'm optimistic about the direction this organization is going, investing time in the players you draft was a foriegn concept for Benning. Edited May 25, 2023 by Pure961089 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxVerstappen33 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 I got Preds fans who would take the 11th oa for Cody Glass I probably would. I don't think most Preds fans would. But I'm also pretty sure that Trotz wouldn't... our centers are Glass, Parssinen, Novak, and Sissons (and maybe Johansen). That's not exactly an area of proven strength to deal from. 11th is really close and I feel like we'd have an excellent chance of getting a player who turns out to be better than Glass with that pick. Just... that player wouldn't play for us until several years from now. Whereas I suspect the Preds would prefer the more immediate contribution of Glass. But it's close! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 On 5/24/2023 at 5:40 PM, PhillipBlunt said: With Green as head coach, and Desjardins and King as his assistants. And Baumer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 Just now, spook007 said: And Baumer How could I forget the defensive guru BumGardener 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, awalk said: I think coming out of the lock out when the cap was first implemented, it was a point of pride for the organization to be a "spend to the cap" team, and they just never adjusted to understand that cap space has a significant amount of value, especially when you are not a playoff team. Importance of flexible cap space has been seriously magnified because of the flat cap, though. Hate to give them a pass but Toronto, in particular, took it hard handing out those big “progressive” contracts expecting to save money long term as the cap went up. Meanwhile, Vegas has shown nothing less than pure distain for the cap and is heading to the finals. Not arguing the Canucks made the right call or anything - in their case they needed to “take their medicine” during Benning’s last offseason and just let the Loui/Beagle/Roussel deals age out and they’d have been fine. Edited May 25, 2023 by ilduce39 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 34 minutes ago, Timråfan said: Wich of those teams have an alien? Well, in fairness Buffalo has Rumplestiltskin from Shrek 3 on their roster in Peyton Krebs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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