grandmaster Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 10 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said: Michkov has been compared to Ovechkin in his D-1 year and D year, but they have different styles of offensive prowess. Ovechkin is a bull. I'm just saying, this board seems to think organisational need is more important than BPA, which has bit us in the ass before (Juolevi vs Tkachuk). IF and I MEAN IF IN A PARALLEL WORLD WHERE TEAMS ARE ABSOLUTELY MORONIC, Michkov FALLS TO 11 (I'm laughing as I'm typing this), it would be like drafting Jack Johnson instead of Ovechkin because your team needs a Dman.... It would be pathetic and the biggest blunder potentially in our 54 year history. Ya it’s a pipe dream. We should stop… 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 1 hour ago, DSVII said: Even if we gloss over Benning's worst crippling franchise mistake (you shouldn't because it represents a $13 Mil swing in Cap constraints and can affect us till 2030 if we buy OEL out), this is such a weird arbitrary low bar. Myer's isn't a max contract, but his $6 x 5 represents a massive boat anchor during the most important parts of this core's prime. You'd be hard pressed to find a GM that has lost as much assets and value to a franchise as Benning in his span of time. Timing is also the issue. Cap Crunch isn't just what the number is today on the spreadsheet, it's cap crunch in important points in time that force you into future inefficiencies. I'll use a micro example. Remember that Petey wanted a long term deal two years ago, but Benning prioritized giving Poolman a contract first in July? Then left Hughes and Petey hanging? By spending $2.5 mil in 2021 on Tucker Poolman (10 mil) when he should have settled Petey first, he's all but guaranteed Petey's contract is going to be an extra $2-3 mil more in Cap for the next eight years (~16-24 mil). Imagine Petey on an 8 x $8.5mil. Unrelated to JB, but I have the same concerns with Hronek's next contract. You have to be nimble when operating in a cap world and our team simply hasn't had that ability since we fired Gilman. Hroneks contract won't be cheap, but at least we will have a year to see, what he will be worth. At worst we won't be saddled with it for the next 7-8 years, if it doesn't work out. That in itself is a major improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Provost said: I never said any of that... what utter nonsense. I said I don't expect ALL of our prospects to be able to be in the lineup a year from now and contributing in any meaningful way to suddenly turn us into a winning team. None of them are blue chip prospects like Petterson and Hughes were that have any likelihood of providing significant surplus on the ice while on a cheap ELC. Having those is how you actually win. Not interchangeable parts on half your roster that are no different than what is on the waiver wire through the season. If the suggested plan to be cap compliant is contingent on half our roster a single season from now being made up of prospects in our system... I don't think people should get their hopes up for playoff appearances, never mind having Stanley Cup aspirations. Every team faces the same salary cap and the bulk of them produce better results. Heck, we can barely tread water with teams that are bottoming out and trying to tank while spending tens of millions less than us. The team isn't good, and the point of the above posts was that there isn't a magic bullet like people are suggesting coming with cap space. We are yet again in a position where money expiring is going to be used to give raises to the few actually efficient contracts we have on the books. Yeah the juggling people do to make line-ups fit under the cap is hilarious. The rosters are usually atrocious. You get rosters of 20, Raty on the second line and Lekkerimaki on the first with Podkolzin, and my favorite just sign 4-6 minimum replacement level guys to fill in spots. And then they show up the next year with the same haphazard plan after we just got annihilated all last season. Oh, yeah and bar none my favorite, the cap is going up to 193 million in 3 years. Just like the last 5-7 years now the major obstacle to making this team great again is cap space, and lack of it, followed closely by a pool barren of blue chip prospects. Unfortunately there is zero relief in sight, just more turning, and squeezing, and hoping and as you say the raises due Petterson, and now Hronek are going to be extremely challenging to fit in without some ELC magic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmaster Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 20 minutes ago, spook007 said: Hroneks contract won't be cheap, but at least we will have a year to see, what he will be worth. At worst we won't be saddled with it for the next 7-8 years, if it doesn't work out. That in itself is a major improvement. I wanted us to sign him to an extension for a cheaper rate this summer in case he prices us out. Then again, team fit is so important. He may have been good in Detroit but, like we all know, a player good in another team doesn’t mean he will be the same here. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 (edited) 52 minutes ago, spook007 said: Hroneks contract won't be cheap, but at least we will have a year to see, what he will be worth. At worst we won't be saddled with it for the next 7-8 years, if it doesn't work out. That in itself is a major improvement. It's good we get a year to judge him but it would have been very odd to sign him to a huge deal without really seeing him play. What if he sucks though or isn't the right fit then you're saying we just don't re-sign him and walk away? What a waste of a top asset that would be and how would that be a major improvement? (Ironically trading a first into mid air for no return would be an improvement on the OEL Garland deal) smh and laughing Edited May 12, 2023 by Gawdzukes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 Just speculation... with the contracts signed until at least a year after Peteys new contract, these are the numbers... EP $ 11.5M Miller $ 8.0M Boeser $ 6.65M Kuzmenko $5.5M Mikheyev $4.75M Garland $ 4.95M Di Giuseppe $ 0.775M Hughes $ 7.85M Hronek $ 7.5M OEL $ 7.26M Poolman $ 2.5M Brisebois $ 0.775M Demko $ 5.0M Total 13 players - 73.01 If the cap rises to $90M his should give 17M to sign 10 players (of which 1 is a reserve goalie), if we don't carry over any penalties/bonuses... If Poolman can't play top 4 he may be shifted, and that should add $2.5M to sign 11players... If Poolman suited sign another RHD $3-5M, That leaves $14.5-16.5M to sign 10 players That will all be depth players, so that should not be a problem. This is based on Petey getting paid $11.5M and Hronek getting paid $ 7.5M, nobody being traded away, just contracts running out. If I missed on some thing please let me know, as this isn't my strong side. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: It's good we get a year to judge him but it would have been very odd to sign him to a huge deal without really seeing him play. What if he sucks though or isn't the right fit then you're saying we just don't re-sign him and walk away? What a waste of a top asset that would be and how would that be a major improvement? (Ironically trading a first into mid air for no return would be an improvement on the OEL Garland deal) smh and laughing Well we can't have it both ways? (and yes that is my point). We complain that we traded for OEL and his 6 years remaining because he ended up a poor fit. This way we at least decide, how long we will work with Hronek. I'm sure they will sign him, but if he turns out to be another Nate Schmidt, who was supposed to be brilliant, and brought in to take Tanevs spot, do you want to give him a 5-7 year contract at $7+M? He is RFA so we decide, and that is all we can ask for. When you trade for a player, you don't expect it not to be good, but this way they at least won't be stuck with another OEL and Garland contract... that's how it would be a major improvement. PS. as he is RFA we may even recoup some of the picks we gave for him, if we want to ship him out again.... Edited May 12, 2023 by spook007 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 12 minutes ago, spook007 said: Well we can't have it both ways? (and yes that is my point). We complain that we traded for OEL and his 6 years remaining because he ended up a poor fit. This way we at least decide, how long we will work with Hronek. I'm sure they will sign him, but if he turns out to be another Nate Schmidt, who was supposed to be brilliant, and brought in to take Tanevs spot, do you want to give him a 5-7 year contract at $7+M? He is RFA so we decide, and that is all we can ask for. When you trade for a player, you don't expect it not to be good, but this way they at least won't be stuck with another OEL and Garland contract... that's how it would be a major improvement. PS. as he is RFA we may even recoup some of the picks we gave for him, if we want to ship him out again.... Schmidt and OEL were older than Htonek and clearly on downward trends. Hronek is only 25 and just entering his prime years. We don’t have Benning/Brod anymore. We have competent management. Hronek will be great. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, spook007 said: Well we can't have it both ways? (and yes that is my point). We complain that we traded for OEL and his 6 years remaining because he ended up a poor fit. This way we at least decide, how long we will work with Hronek. I'm sure they will sign him, but if he turns out to be another Nate Schmidt, who was supposed to be brilliant, and brought in to take Tanevs spot, do you want to give him a 5-7 year contract at $7+M? He is RFA so we decide, and that is all we can ask for. When you trade for a player, you don't expect it not to be good, but this way they at least won't be stuck with another OEL and Garland contract... that's how it would be a major improvement. PS. as he is RFA we may even recoup some of the picks we gave for him, if we want to ship him out again.... Aha, yeah well I guess that makes sense. I'm assuming that he's going to be decent at least and we'll sign him unless he is a Schmidt. Good point about recouping assets, he is RFA so we'd get something back for him. I guess he could be traded at the TDL too if things go south. I personally think he's going to work out as I like his game. I will give Allvin and crew credit here. His new deal will replace Myers cap so absolutely perfect timing on that. It's still going to be hard to fit his contract in though along with Petey's contract but that's to be expected. I keep hoping we can make some moves to get rid of cap. I have a felling we may be pleasantly surprised by the moves this summer. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
250Integra Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 Let’s just hope OEL has a Karlsson like resurgence and all will be fine. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 5 minutes ago, 250Integra said: Let’s just hope OEL has a Karlsson like resurgence and all will be fine. With Hronek for his partner OEL could very well have a good year. He has to put in the effort and sacrifice this summer though to come back in the best condition of his life. He even said before that he needs to train harder and not rely n just his elite talent. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 13 minutes ago, 250Integra said: Let’s just hope OEL has a Karlsson like resurgence and all will be fine. Solid plan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 2 hours ago, spook007 said: Just speculation... with the contracts signed until at least a year after Peteys new contract, these are the numbers... EP $ 11.5M Miller $ 8.0M Boeser $ 6.65M Kuzmenko $5.5M Mikheyev $4.75M Garland $ 4.95M Di Giuseppe $ 0.775M Hughes $ 7.85M Hronek $ 7.5M OEL $ 7.26M Poolman $ 2.5M Brisebois $ 0.775M Demko $ 5.0M Total 13 players - 73.01 If the cap rises to $90M his should give 17M to sign 10 players (of which 1 is a reserve goalie), if we don't carry over any penalties/bonuses... If Poolman can't play top 4 he may be shifted, and that should add $2.5M to sign 11players... If Poolman suited sign another RHD $3-5M, That leaves $14.5-16.5M to sign 10 players That will all be depth players, so that should not be a problem. This is based on Petey getting paid $11.5M and Hronek getting paid $ 7.5M, nobody being traded away, just contracts running out. If I missed on some thing please let me know, as this isn't my strong side. I think you should slot players into roster spots to see the holes rather than just list them. Allocate what sort of money each roster spot costs for most teams. Poolman coming back to be a top 4D who can play with either Hughes or OEL seems pie in the sky, he wasn’t doing that when he wasn’t hurt and missing vast swaths of time. In a $90 million cap world… I am not sure where you find a top 4RHD for $3-5 million. Consider Myers was an “iffy” top 4 guy (many around hockey considered him a #5… and they were right) and cost $6 million when the cap was much less than $90 million. That is $6.6 million to cost the same percentage of a $90 million salary cap. So quickly your $17 million for 10 players EVEN IF the cap goes beyond projections all the way to $90 million…. Goes down to $11 million for 9 players. If you project a more conservative and realistic cap increase of $5 million between 23-24 and 24-25. That is $88.5… so you are likely looking at filling out 9 spots for a $1 million average salary. From that you need to find another top 6 forward, a good 3C a back up goalie, more 3rd and 4th liners… and more NHL calibre D. That money just runs out faster than you can fill spots. The idea of having half the roster being players at or near league minimum just isn’t a recipe for success. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Provost said: I think you should slot players into roster spots to see the holes rather than just list them. Allocate what sort of money each roster spot costs for most teams. Poolman coming back to be a top 4D who can play with either Hughes or OEL seems pie in the sky, he wasn’t doing that when he wasn’t hurt and missing vast swaths of time. In a $90 million cap world… I am not sure where you find a top 4RHD for $3-5 million. Consider Myers was an “iffy” top 4 guy (many around hockey considered him a #5… and they were right) and cost $6 million when the cap was much less than $90 million. That is $6.6 million to cost the same percentage of a $90 million salary cap. So quickly your $17 million for 10 players EVEN IF the cap goes beyond projections all the way to $90 million…. Goes down to $11 million for 9 players. If you project a more conservative and realistic cap increase of $5 million between 23-24 and 24-25. That is $88.5… so you are likely looking at filling out 9 spots for a $1 million average salary. From that you need to find another top 6 forward, a good 3C a back up goalie, more 3rd and 4th liners… and more NHL calibre D. That money just runs out faster than you can fill spots. The idea of having half the roster being players at or near league minimum just isn’t a recipe for success. I actually just used yours.. the roster spots, you set up... Think a top 4ish Dman is possible at 3-5 target. Atm we have Baer playing for $1.8M, double that amount or almost treble, would be enough to find another player able to play top 4 position.... At the moment and for another year we have Hronek playing for $4.4M, so... But if we can't afford that, we can wait to the year after, when Brock or Kuz are off the pay role. Ideally Poolman is history, but if we can't trade him or buy him out, he may still be around. Paying $7.2M for a D-man who has struggled is not good, but wonder how much was due to injury and how much was in order to babysit Myers. Here goes: Kuz - Petey - Mika / (Hogs) Garland/ (De Giuseppe/Joshua)- Miller - Brock (maybe Lekkerimaki after another year can take over from Brock, when his contract is up although doubt it) Joshua/(Garland) - Aman - Podz/(Mika/Hogs) De Giuseppe/(Bains) - Raty or Karlsson - Hogs (Podz) QH - 3-5 Dman OEL - Hronek Wolanin/( Hirose/D-Petey(ig he is ready ) - Schenn ((if they can shift Poolman or buy him out )(alternatives Brisebois/Juulsen/Woo/Johanson if he is ready in another year) Demko Silovs That should keep the money below the mark. If the 3rd/4th line players wants bigger increases, there are other to take, either from within or else where. Ideally we shift Garland and/or Brock, but if we can't we are still able to stay within the cap. So shortened down: Mikheyev - Petterson - Kuzmenko Garland - Miller - Boeser Joshua - Aman - Hogs Di Guiseppe - Kalsson - Podz Raty/Bains Hughes - $3-5M OEL - Hronek Wolanin - Poolman or Schenn Hirose - Brisebois Demko Silovs Edited May 13, 2023 by spook007 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nurnge Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 Hasn't every Russian born player dropped a fare amount the last 2 years will might this year be any different ? Really hoping Michkov makes it to 11 and Alvin views him as BPA and is not too concerned about his availability in the future . I know any team above Van could take him but if he drops past Wash Maybe we .............................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeeeergh Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 1 hour ago, spook007 said: I actually just used yours.. the roster spots, you set up... Pie in the sky? Atm we have Baer playing for $1.8M, double that amount or almost treble, would be enough to find another player able to play top 4 position... So I don't think that is a pie tin the sky. At the moment and for another year we have Hronek playing for $4.4M, so... And if we can't afford that, we can wait to the year after when Brock or Kuz are of the pay role. Paying $7.2M for a D-man who has struggled is not good, but wonder how much was due to injury and how much was in order to babysit Myers. Here goes: Kuz - Petey - Mika / (Hogs) Garland/ (De Giuseppe/Joshua)- Miller - Brock (maybe Lekkerimaki after another year can take over from Brock, when his contract is up although doubt it) Joshua/(Garland) - Aman - Podz/(Mika/Hogs) De Giuseppe/(Bains) - Raty or Karlsson - Hogs (Podz) QH - 3-5 Dman OEL - Hronek Wolanin/( Hirose/D-Petey(ig he is ready ) - Schenn ((if they can shift Poolman or buy him out )(alternatives Brisebois/Juulsen/Johanson if he is ready in another year) Demko Silovs That should keep the money below the mark. If the 3rd/4th line players wants bigger increases, there are other to take, either from within or else where. Ideally we shift Garland and/or Brock, but if we can't we are still able to stay within the cap. So shortened down: Mikheyev - Petterson - Kuzmenko Garland - Miller - Boeser Joshua - Aman - Hogs Di Guiseppe - Kalsson - Podz Raty/Bains Hughes - $3-5M OEL - Hronek Wolanin - Poolman or Schenn Hirose - Brisebois Demko Silovs Aman at 3C is a problem in my opinion. Unless he takes huge strides, he cant be relied on in that role. We need a 3C who also doubles as an elite penalty killer + faceoff specialist. Also - wheres Beauvillier? Karlsson doesnt make sense to me as a 4C, my understanding is he's been playing the wing in abbotsford. Bains and Raty are not NHL ready, and should not be our callups in the event of injury. Poolman was god awful when he played for us - offence died on his stick. Wolanin is good enough for a bottom pair NHL i think. One of Garland or Boeser basically has to be moved, its a virtual certainty. Unless they move Beauvillier which I doubt, given his chemistry with Petey. If they move Garland and buy out OEL they can ice a good team next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 44 minutes ago, eeeeergh said: Aman at 3C is a problem in my opinion. Unless he takes huge strides, he cant be relied on in that role. We need a 3C who also doubles as an elite penalty killer + faceoff specialist. Also - wheres Beauvillier? Karlsson doesnt make sense to me as a 4C, my understanding is he's been playing the wing in abbotsford. Bains and Raty are not NHL ready, and should not be our callups in the event of injury. Poolman was god awful when he played for us - offence died on his stick. Wolanin is good enough for a bottom pair NHL i think. One of Garland or Boeser basically has to be moved, its a virtual certainty. Unless they move Beauvillier which I doubt, given his chemistry with Petey. If they move Garland and buy out OEL they can ice a good team next year. The line up is based on a year from now, when Peteys contract is being renewed, not this summer. By then Beau is off the books, and Aman is one year further in his development just like Karlsson, Raty and Bains. The question was, if the team could fit in under the cap a year from now, without having to pay others to take players like Boeser, Garland or Poolman off our hands... I proved that we could so so without problems. If our own players aren't deemed good enough or ready in a years time, they'll find other that are... Raty may be able the play C by then, Maybe Kalsson or Seisson, or maybe even Klim that I actually forgot about as well. The whole point is, that we are not over the cap or in cap hell, even though its not ideal. We don't have to give sweetners to off load Players like Boeser, Garland or Beau, if we don't want to. As for how good the bottom lines are, well if we run with Petey, Miller, Kuz, Mika and Brock on the two top lines and we have QH, Hronek, OEL and want to add another $3-5M rhd, as well as Demko, we need to make savings some where. Until Garland or Brock or Beau and Poolman gets dumped we can't afford both more improvement on D and a better bottom 6 (3C in particular). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 7 hours ago, spook007 said: Hroneks contract won't be cheap, but at least we will have a year to see, what he will be worth. At worst we won't be saddled with it for the next 7-8 years, if it doesn't work out. That in itself is a major improvement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 On 5/8/2023 at 6:23 PM, Ghostsof1915 said: Knowing the Canucks. Michkov and Reinbacher will be available at 11. And the Canucks will draft Michkov. I mean... I should friggin hope so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucks Curse Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 3 hours ago, hammertime said: hahahahahahhahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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