[Report] Penguins name Kyle Dubas as President of Hockey Operations & GM

[bishopshodan]

I kinda like Dubas more now. Dunno why, maybe my unfounded Leafs hate.

 

But you can't have my boy Miller, Kyle. Go look somewhere else. 

[Tony Romo]

8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Liverpool was a successful club long before FSG bought them.  They won 18 out of their 19 Premier League titles and 5 out of their 6 Champions League titles well before FSG got involved.  As for the Boston Red Sox, they were also a powerhouse way before John Henry bought them.  They could have won several World Series prior to 2004 but just had bad luck and the curse of the Bambino.  As for their purchase of Pittsburgh Penguins, they bought them in 2021 and then Pittsburgh went on to miss the playoffs for the first time in 15 years afterwards. So I wouldn’t put too much stock into what they are doing now.  The masterminds behind the Penguins success are all gone now and some are now in Vancouver.  We will see what Dubas does over there over the next few years.  I wonder what he’s going to do when Crosby retires?  

Liverpool had not won the premier league since 1990 and were a mess under the Hicks ownership. 

....and Bostons last world series before 2004 was like 80 some years ago..

[rekker]

49 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

I kinda like Dubas more now. Dunno why, maybe my unfounded Leafs hate.

 

But you can't have my boy Miller, Kyle. Go look somewhere else. 

Ultimately, you learn the most from your mistakes, so moving forward I suspect Dubas will get better at his job. I cannot support his work in TO and I see it as a complete failure and a mess moving forward. I prefer GM 's that have played to a high-level, won championships, understand the it factor and the elevation in play that it takes to win. 

[bishopshodan]

6 minutes ago, rekker said:

Ultimately, you learn the most from your mistakes, so moving forward I suspect Dubas will get better at his job. I cannot support his work in TO and I see it as a complete failure and a mess moving forward. I prefer GM 's that have played to a high-level, won championships, understand the it factor and the elevation in play that it takes to win. 

I dont care if a person has played. I think one can be a good coach or GM etc via other routes. I'm thinking of Scotty Bowman as one example.

 

I didn't like Dubas at all in TO but lately Shanahan has seemed like a more of a goof. I used to absolutely love him but since he became a suit he has slowly lost me. Maybe that and my hate for the Leafs has made me want to see Kyle do well. Just to stick it to T.O.

[bishopshodan]

4 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I've thought of Shanahan as a goof long before he wore a suit in the TML front office.  Something about him even as a player rubbed me the wrong way.

Harford Whalers were always my 2nd fav team. It's why I still support the Canes. 

I like the style of player he was. Scorer that was also very tough. 

[Quantum]

12 hours ago, wildcam said:

Dubas will take Penguins to bottom of league very soon...Bad move old players and no prospect..

Next 3-6 yrs bottom 10 team looks good on Dubas..Dubas should of taken his time and waited for GM job in Ottawa..

Might of won cup there in 3--6 years with new owners in Ottawa and good young team they have....

Yep, I agree.

 

Penguins are about to enter a really rough rebuild. They're going to have to do what Chicago just did. Start stripping the parts but they have Malkin/Crosby/Letang signed for 2, 3, and 5 years respectively. I still can't believe Hextall gave Letang a 6 year contract, that's insane.

 

Ottawa would've been a better landing spot for Dubas, I totally agree. Only issue is that the sale has hit a snag in Ottawa and they don't appear to have a clear new owner coming in. Honestly, I kind of feel like Calgary screwed up big time by not waiting for Dubas, they're a team that could've benefited a lot from having him around instead of Craig Conroy.

[King Heffy]

34 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I've thought of Shanahan as a goof long before he wore a suit in the TML front office.  Something about him even as a player rubbed me the wrong way.

 Craig Janney would agree.

[Ghostsof1915]

28 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Harford Whalers were always my 2nd fav team. It's why I still support the Canes. 

I like the style of player he was. Scorer that was also very tough. 

I can't do that.

I can't support the Coyotes because they once were the Jets.

I can't support the Canes, because they were once the Whalers.

I can't support the Stars because they were once the North Stars

I can't support the AV's because they were once the Nordiques.

Having a team in a market that cared about the club, and they bailed for more money, or a better arena bugs me.

It's probably the Grizzlies, Supersonics, Raiders Effect.

 

 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

4 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Maybe it was his time with the Blues, or the dead things.  Not sure.  As for being a player and then subsequently going into management, I mean being a player does give someone insight into how the game is played, but there's also the possibility that they get set in their fossilized ways and not evolve with the game.  I can see how different perspectives from outside the game (or at least outside of playing the game at the highest levels) can help with strategy and team construction, and unlike some posters here, I don't mind looking at the game with a scientific eye.  It certainly can't be any worse than a former player ending up in management being stuck in their mindset and thinking that their way of seeing the game is the only way of playing the game. 

Case in point - the man Dubas is replacing.... Flyers sleeper agent Ron Hextall.  Somehow became the worst GM in Pens history in just one and a half years.

[rekker]

1 hour ago, bishopshodan said:

I dont care if a person has played. I think one can be a good coach or GM etc via other routes. I'm thinking of Scotty Bowman as one example.

 

I didn't like Dubas at all in TO but lately Shanahan has seemed like a more of a goof. I used to absolutely love him but since he became a suit he has slowly lost me. Maybe that and my hate for the Leafs has made me want to see Kyle do well. Just to stick it to T.O.

No kidding. My boys middle name is Brendan. After Shanny. I wear number 14, lol. I can't believe he stood by and allowed this collection of softies to take place. So disappointed in Shanny.

[rekker]

46 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Harford Whalers were always my 2nd fav team. It's why I still support the Canes. 

I like the style of player he was. Scorer that was also very tough. 

I remember when he won the pie plates shooting accuracy at All Star. Loved Shanahan 

 

[rekker]

17 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

, I mean being a player does give someone insight into how the game is played, but there's also the possibility that they get set in their fossilized ways and not evolve with the game

To me, it comes down to player recognition. If you have played to a high level, especially won at a high level, you recognize that player that has "it". You may not even like him, but when your winning with him you love him like a brother. Not every player can elevate and it's up to the GM to collect as many as possible that can play.

[Ghostsof1915]

I think a lot depends on the player. If that player had great hockey sense, leadership ability, was able to change his style of the game. And could be impartial and see "what's good for the team". I think there's a lot of ex-players that would make good managers. Even players that just went the NCAA route, and got management experience.

But I think the best way is to go to Junior and learn the ropes. Then work up to the NHL.

[Coconuts]

15 hours ago, Rick_theRyper said:

Do the stars line up for a Miller trade for the 14th? Flip that for a lower pick and a Defensmen? Draft a center with the 11?

Here's hoping, I still think Miller would fit great in Pittsburgh. Grew up a Pens fan, probably still has a home there. Pittsburgh is looking at a rebuild post Crosby, Malking, and Letang, may as well try and go for a cup in the near future. They won't care about the latter years of Miller's deal as much at that point if he can help them compete while Crosby et al. are still productive. 

 

14 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Look at the guys Dubas invested in long-term in Toronto.  Miller isn't exactly the type of player Dubas seems to prioritize.  He much prefers paying soft floaters who are afraid of the puck.

Dude just brought in players like Schenn and ROR. Brought in Giordano and Muzzin. Lyubushkin, Foligno, Rodrigues. 

 

Shit on Dubas if you want, I'm not a fanboy, but let's not pretend he didn't recognize the value of players who play hard. He made moves that didn't work, trades, signings, ect, but he did try and insulate a core that underperformed come playoff time. 

 

1 hour ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I've thought of Shanahan as a goof long before he wore a suit in the TML front office.  Something about him even as a player rubbed me the wrong way.

People need to separate Shanahan the player and Shanahan the executive, Shanahan the executive should have gotten the axe too. Nearly ten years on the job with a single win in the second round to show for it. Leafs have had regular season success and little else and he's been top dog for all of it. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Coconuts

[Ghostsof1915]

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Here's hoping, I still think Miller would fit great in Pittsburgh. Grew up a Pens fan, probably still has a home there. Pittsburgh is looking at a rebuild post Crosby, Malking, and Letang, may as well try and go for a cup in the near future. They won't care about the latter years of Miller's deal as much at that point if he can help them compete while Crosby et al. are still productive. 

 

Dude just brought in players like Schenn and ROR. Brought in Giordano and Muzzin. Lyubushkin, Foligno, Rodrigues. 

 

Shit on Dubas if you want, I'm not a fanboy, but let's not pretend he didn't recognize the value of players who play hard. He made moves that didn't work, trades, signings, ect, but he did try and insulate a core that underperformed come playoff time. 

 

People need to separate Shanahan the player and Shanahan the executive, Shanahan the executive should have gotten the axe too. Nearly ten years on the job with a single win in the second round to show for it. Leafs have had regular season success and little else and he's been top dog for all of it. 

I understand why though. If they turfed Shanahan. They would have to hire a President First, then a GM. And that might take a while. I'm curious what the board is thinking.

Because if things don't work out. They might be blowing everything up.

[Coconuts]

6 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I understand why though. If they turfed Shanahan. They would have to hire a President First, then a GM. And that might take a while. I'm curious what the board is thinking.

Because if things don't work out. They might be blowing everything up.

Ain't that why AGM's and heads of scouting have jobs though? Surely there are folks beyond Dubas and Shanahan capable of engaging in contract talks or making draft selections.

 

I get the gap of president and GM, I do, but I think they could have hired a candidate for president before the draft, they found a GM quickly enough.

[mll]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

Here's hoping, I still think Miller would fit great in Pittsburgh. Grew up a Pens fan, probably still has a home there. Pittsburgh is looking at a rebuild post Crosby, Malking, and Letang, may as well try and go for a cup in the near future. They won't care about the latter years of Miller's deal as much at that point if he can help them compete while Crosby et al. are still productive. 

 

Dude just brought in players like Schenn and ROR. Brought in Giordano and Muzzin. Lyubushkin, Foligno, Rodrigues. 

 

Shit on Dubas if you want, I'm not a fanboy, but let's not pretend he didn't recognize the value of players who play hard. He made moves that didn't work, trades, signings, ect, but he did try and insulate a core that underperformed come playoff time. 

 

People need to separate Shanahan the player and Shanahan the executive, Shanahan the executive should have gotten the axe too. Nearly ten years on the job with a single win in the second round to show for it. Leafs have had regular season success and little else and he's been top dog for all of it. 

I wouldn't expect them to be interested in Miller anymore.  Dubas is talking of reducing the gap between this era and the next.  That's probably through drafting/developing prospects (ie need picks for that) but also avoiding contracts that could age badly. 

 

There are just so many cap strapped teams league wide - teams with some cap space could get some pretty good players on the cheap.  Pittsburgh has the high end players in Crosby/Malkin/Guentzel.  It's the bottom-6 and the D-corps that's been the issue mostly and at times goaltending.    

 

Dubas and Sullivan have already had some broad discussions on roster need. Sullivan reminds that speed was critical when they used to have success and says it's an area they can improve on this off-season.  Speaks of how the best teams are teams with speed.  Carolina and NJD in the same division and are both very fast skating teams. 

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, mll said:

I wouldn't expect them to be interested in Miller anymore.  Dubas is talking of reducing the gap between this era and the next.  That's probably through drafting/developing prospects (ie need picks for that) but also avoiding contracts that could age badly. 

 

There are just so many cap strapped teams league wide - teams with some cap space could get some pretty good players on the cheap.  Pittsburgh has the high end players in Crosby/Malkin/Guentzel.  It's the bottom-6 and the D-corps that's been the issue mostly and at times goaltending.    

 

Dubas and Sullivan have already had some broad discussions on roster need. Sullivan reminds that speed was critical when they used to have success and says it's an area they can improve on this off-season.  Speaks of how the best teams are teams with speed.  Carolina and NJD in the same division and are both very fast skating teams. 

 

Would the Pens be interested in Demko? 14OA for Demko? 

[Ghostsof1915]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

Ain't that why AGM's and heads of scouting have jobs though? Surely there are folks beyond Dubas and Shanahan capable of engaging in contract talks or making draft selections.

 

I get the gap of president and GM, I do, but I think they could have hired a candidate for president before the draft, they found a GM quickly enough.

Maybe they ran out of time.

[Elias Pettersson]

6 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Maybe he has a better (not good, but obviously better than here) reputation elsewhere because other hockey communities aren't so vehemently anti-Toronto?  Or maybe because he did do good things as a Leafs GM?  You're unwilling to even entertain that possibility which is why there's no real debate going on here.  I'm willing to acknowledge Dubas' mistakes, of which there are several.  That Tavares contract you mentioned.  The Marner/Matthews extensions that expire right as they hit UFA.  Those are horrendous.  His trade record is poor.

 

So what are you willing to concede here?  Nothing, right?  Because if he truly was one of the worst GMs in hockey, then yeah - zero credit goes to him.  But here is a hard fact you need to accept - no Canadian team performed better on a year-to-year basis than Toronto during the last half decade.  Regular season success is more important than ever in a growing league.  With Vegas and Seattle in, that's two more teams out of the playoff picture.  Treliving got fired for missing the playoffs.  Hextall got fired for that too.  Can you name a GM who got fired for losing in the postseason?  Can you?

 

I'm not going to spend any more time picking apart everything you've said.  So much of it is incredibly subjective and you keep trying to pass it off as a fact.  More annoyingly, you're making the same points I've already disproven in the past.  Stuff like "Nylander is overpaid" or "their defence sucks"?  Those are opinions, and ones that I've debunked in the thread on Dubas getting fired.  I used hard numbers and metrics to show why you were wrong, and now you're just ignoring it and going back to your hockey platitudes.  Even suggesting "Tavares is overpaid" is still a matter of opinion, albeit one that IS substantiated by his documented drop in production.

 

Go out and lurk other hockey communities.  Or watch YouTube channels like Eck or UrinatingTree or even Steve Dangle.  No one thinks Dubas was nearly as bad as you claim.  Not a single person.  Try accepting that you haven't been looking at the Toronto controversy with any objectivity and listen to what others are saying.

So where's your proof of this?  You have none.  Every other hire in the NHL could be the result of nepotism and you can still be wrong about this one.  The more logical conclusion to this promotion would be that Pittsburgh genuinely believes he can make the team better.  No conspiracy - no inside job.  

So you are willing to admit that the Tavares contract is horrendous, the Matthews, Marner extensions are horrendous, Dubas trade record is poor. So I’m trying to figure out what I am supposed to give him credit for?  What else is there?  Toronto has no depth, no prospects and no draft picks. These are facts so why do you keep saying otherwise?  
 

Dubas had regular season success. He made the playoffs all 5 years as a Leafs GM. So there you go. That’s his success. I will concede that. If you feel that is good enough to get a POHO job after all of his other failures then that’s your opinion.  Your opinion is also not fact. 
 

As far as regular season success being the only reason that counts in keeping your GM job (your words) then I have a question for you. Why did Mike Gillis get fired when he made the playoffs five out of the six seasons he was the POHO of the Canucks, winning the President’s trophy as the best team in hockey on two separate occasions. Can you explain that?  Was it really that one season that he missed the playoffs that got him fired or was it that Aquilini wasn’t happy with the lack of playoff success after the 2011 finals and he wanted to change it up?  You tell me. 
 

If the NHL is not a club then why can’t a guy like Gillis get another job after winning the Presidents trophy two years in a row and making the Stanley Cup finals once in a 6 year span while a guy like Dubas, who never accomplished any of that, can be hired by a new club within weeks of getting fired from his old gig?  Can you explain that?  
 

Can you name a GM who got fired for losing in the postseason?  Can you?

 

Yes I can. Brian Burke make the playoffs 4 years in a row and his team won their division in the 2003-2004 season and finished 7th overall in the NHL and made the playoffs. They lost in the first round in a tight 7 game battle with Calgary and then afterwards Burke’s contract was not renewed by Aquilini. Can you explain why Burke effectively got fired after losing in the post season?