Canucks’ Rick Tocchet on what he wants to see from Vasily Podkolzin and Nils Höglander next season

[tas]

11 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Then why was Virtanen on for so few goals against? And had plenty of takeaways?

because he was only good enough to play against the other teams' worst players. 

[AnthonyG]

18 hours ago, tas said:

because he was only good enough to play against the other teams' worst players. 

But produced with Roussel, Guaudette on his line. If a guy is a defensive liability, but producing with little to no help… WHY WOULD YOU PUT HIM IN A POSITION TO FAIL????????????????? Thats just boneheaded to me. He produced 18g 18a with 3rd/4th line guys and only getting 13:05 TOI without ANY PP 1 time, border line PP 3 time when you look at the PP line combo he played on Gaudette, Pearson, Roussel lol wtf??

So what do they do the following season? Reduce his ice time, give him far more defensive zone starts which.. idk if you are aware…. That means his defensive game was actually trusted. Our goalies always had a very respectable sv% when he was on the ice and our goalies didnt allow many goals in. 
but like wtf???? How does that make sense at all?? Hes a goal scorer, drafted for that reason alone, yet he never had the leash Boeser, McCann, Horvat and other young guys had. Slotted in with top 6 line mates, given PP 1 time, given more ice time, more ozone starts.

Virtanen was mishandled completely and it seemed Green just wasnt a fan of him, which was indicated by his 5v5 TOI AND PP TOI being reduced each time he had a good season.

[tas]

4 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

But produced with Roussel, Guaudette on his line. If a guy is a defensive liability, but producing with little to no help… WHY WOULD YOU PUT HIM IN A POSITION TO FAIL????????????????? Thats just boneheaded to me. He produced 18g 18a with 3rd/4th line guys and only getting 13:05 TOI without ANY PP 1 time, border line PP 3 time when you look at the PP line combo he played on Gaudette, Pearson, Roussel lol wtf??

So what do they do the following season? Reduce his ice time, give him far more defensive zone starts which.. idk if you are aware…. That means his defensive game was actually trusted. Our goalies always had a very respectable sv% when he was on the ice and our goalies didnt allow many goals in. 
but like wtf???? How does that make sense at all?? Hes a goal scorer, drafted for that reason alone, yet he never had the leash Boeser, McCann, Horvat and other young guys had. Slotted in with top 6 line mates, given PP 1 time, given more ice time, more ozone starts.

Virtanen was mishandled completely and it seemed Green just wasnt a fan of him, which was indicated by his 5v5 TOI AND PP TOI being reduced each time he had a good season.

his stats were and are irrelevant. ice time is earned through playing properly, not points. 

[AnthonyG]

5 minutes ago, tas said:

his stats were and are irrelevant. ice time is earned through playing properly, not points. 

Incorrect. Production matters. For the most part top 6 guys are not here to shut down opposing players. They are paid to score. Defensive awareness is a bonus.

Your top 6 spends the LARGE majority of their time in the opposing end, dont need to worry about playing D when you will spend very little time in your own end.

Taking a guy who is producing with limited TOI and no offensive advantages such as zone distribution and PP time and then reducing his TOI and then favouring his dzone distribution over his ozone distribution is just straight up f***ing brain dead. How about increase his ozone time, reward him with more PP time, give him better linemates that add to his offence and then watch the real product. 

You can teach defence, you cant teach scoring and to produce 18g 18a playing with 3/4 liners who hinder, not help production, is impressive. To not reward that, holds not only that player back, but the team overall. He could have put up even more had he been in the top 6.

 

Why wasnt Boeser or McCann ever treated the same? Or Pettersson?? All handed the top opportunities, more ice time, better linemates without proving anything. Virtanen never had the same treatment.

 

 

[tas]

4 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Incorrect. Production matters.

maybe to you and the other wannabe online critics, but not when it comes to the internal hierarchy dynamics of the team. 

 

as av used to say, and as every other decent nhl coach says, it's about the process. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by tas

[AnthonyG]

6 minutes ago, tas said:

maybe to you and the other wannabe online critics, but not when it comes to the internal hierarchy dynamics of the team. 

 

as av used to say, and as every other decent nhl coach says, it's about the process. 

Buddy why isnt the process the same for everyone? You have yet to answer why guys like Boeser never went through ANY of “the process” his defensive game is weak (however Tocchet has had an impact on him changing his game now) yet has been stapled to the top 6 and soaks up PP 1 time. Why??? BECAUSE HES A GOAL SCORER NOT A DZONE SPECIALIST

 

you place players in positions to succeed, not to fail. Virtanen was never placed in a place to have a ton of success, yet he continued to produce and they continued to take away offensive opportunities to produce and he kept on producing and they took more and more away and gave him worse linemates and in his final season playing 12:15 a night with a 16% reduction in offensive zone distribution aka 39%oZS playing with 00:36average PP time and playing with a constant mix of different players, some in the top 6, but mostly in a blender in the bottom 6, he began to fail at producing.

 

You reward production YOU DONT BURY PRODUCTION. To win you gotta score. Why take away any further opportunities for the team to score? Look around the league man, its FULL of top 6 guys with zero defensive game. He’s also a W not a C, centre’s have far more impact in the dzone than wingers. 
The process is for guys who struggle to produce with top 6 opportunities and PP time, show no progression, not guys who are literally showing year by year improvement without ANY help towards producing. 

[tas]

30 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Buddy why isnt the process the same for everyone? You have yet to answer why guys like Boeser never went through ANY of “the process” his defensive game is weak (however Tocchet has had an impact on him changing his game now) yet has been stapled to the top 6 and soaks up PP 1 time. Why??? BECAUSE HES A GOAL SCORER NOT A DZONE SPECIALIST

 

you place players in positions to succeed, not to fail. Virtanen was never placed in a place to have a ton of success, yet he continued to produce and they continued to take away offensive opportunities to produce and he kept on producing and they took more and more away and gave him worse linemates and in his final season playing 12:15 a night with a 16% reduction in offensive zone distribution aka 39%oZS playing with 00:36average PP time and playing with a constant mix of different players, some in the top 6, but mostly in a blender in the bottom 6, he began to fail at producing.

 

You reward production YOU DONT BURY PRODUCTION. To win you gotta score. Why take away any further opportunities for the team to score? Look around the league man, its FULL of top 6 guys with zero defensive game. He’s also a W not a C, centre’s have far more impact in the dzone than wingers. 
The process is for guys who struggle to produce with top 6 opportunities and PP time, show no progression, not guys who are literally showing year by year improvement without ANY help towards producing. 

it's about earning trust through consistency in effort and intention, which Jake never exhibited. 

[Putgolzin]

40 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Buddy why isnt the process the same for everyone? You have yet to answer why guys like Boeser never went through ANY of “the process” his defensive game is weak (however Tocchet has had an impact on him changing his game now) yet has been stapled to the top 6 and soaks up PP 1 time. Why??? BECAUSE HES A GOAL SCORER NOT A DZONE SPECIALIST

 

you place players in positions to succeed, not to fail. Virtanen was never placed in a place to have a ton of success, yet he continued to produce and they continued to take away offensive opportunities to produce and he kept on producing and they took more and more away and gave him worse linemates and in his final season playing 12:15 a night with a 16% reduction in offensive zone distribution aka 39%oZS playing with 00:36average PP time and playing with a constant mix of different players, some in the top 6, but mostly in a blender in the bottom 6, he began to fail at producing.

 

You reward production YOU DONT BURY PRODUCTION. To win you gotta score. Why take away any further opportunities for the team to score? Look around the league man, its FULL of top 6 guys with zero defensive game. He’s also a W not a C, centre’s have far more impact in the dzone than wingers. 
The process is for guys who struggle to produce with top 6 opportunities and PP time, show no progression, not guys who are literally showing year by year improvement without ANY help towards producing. 

Dude, despite all your CAPS LOCK EMPHASIS he keeps getting opportunities to this day.

He got an opportunity with Edmonton last year.

After not cutting it there, he got another opportunity in the B-league of Switzerland.

To his credit, he finally became a point-per-game player there now in the prime of his career.

[AnthonyG]

37 minutes ago, tas said:

it's about earning trust through consistency in effort and intention, which Jake never exhibited. 

Consistently increased his totals. Each. And. Every. Season. Yet they made it harder and harder for him to be able to produce. It wasnt until Green made it nearly impossible for him to produce, that he struggled.

Boeser, McCann and Pettersson were all handed top 6 opportunities without proving anything and handed PP1 time, Without earning any of it. 
Virtanen was mishandled. 

[Highstickin]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Incorrect. Production matters. For the most part top 6 guys are not here to shut down opposing players. They are paid to score. Defensive awareness is a bonus.

Your top 6 spends the LARGE majority of their time in the opposing end, dont need to worry about playing D when you will spend very little time in your own end.

Taking a guy who is producing with limited TOI and no offensive advantages such as zone distribution and PP time and then reducing his TOI and then favouring his dzone distribution over his ozone distribution is just straight up f***ing brain dead. How about increase his ozone time, reward him with more PP time, give him better linemates that add to his offence and then watch the real product. 

You can teach defence, you cant teach scoring and to produce 18g 18a playing with 3/4 liners who hinder, not help production, is impressive. To not reward that, holds not only that player back, but the team overall. He could have put up even more had he been in the top 6.

 

Why wasnt Boeser or McCann ever treated the same? Or Pettersson?? All handed the top opportunities, more ice time, better linemates without proving anything. Virtanen never had the same treatment.

 

 

Making the statement "you can teach defence, you can't teach scoring" is simply a lie. I agree that offense is not easy to learn but playing solid defense takes commitment, the IQ to read plays and the heart to play physical/punishing hockey. There are a lot of players now that are not willing to put in the effort in the D-zone because a) all they want are stats on a sheet of paper & b) they don't want to get their hands dirty. 

 

Your entire argument here can be neutralized by looking at who won the cup this year. Guess what, Vegas didn't give a crap how many points each player got they only cared about winning. You say top 6 guys are not here to shut down opposing players, well Vegas' top 6 does and they are contenders year over year because of it. You can value all your regular season goals, assist and points you want but when games matter the most defense wins (and this includes players in your top 6). 

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, Highstickin said:

Making the statement "you can teach defence, you can't teach scoring" is simply a lie. I agree that offense is not easy to learn but playing solid defense takes commitment, the IQ to read plays and the heart to play physical/punishing hockey. There are a lot of players now that are not willing to put in the effort in the D-zone because a) all they want are stats on a sheet of paper & b) they don't want to get their hands dirty. 

 

Your entire argument here can be neutralized by looking at who won the cup this year. Guess what, Vegas didn't give a crap how many points each player got they only cared about winning. You say top 6 guys are not here to shut down opposing players, well Vegas' top 6 does and they are contenders year over year because of it. You can value all your regular season goals, assist and points you want but when games matter the most defense wins (and this includes players in your top 6). 

This is it. Vegas won because Eichel, unlike McDavid, sacrificed offence to play the right way. Fortunately we have both Petey and Miller who play exactly like that. We traded away the elephant who cheated the game for offence. 

[flat land fish]

43 minutes ago, Highstickin said:

Making the statement "you can teach defence, you can't teach scoring" is simply a lie. I agree that offense is not easy to learn but playing solid defense takes commitment, the IQ to read plays and the heart to play physical/punishing hockey. There are a lot of players now that are not willing to put in the effort in the D-zone because a) all they want are stats on a sheet of paper & b) they don't want to get their hands dirty. 

 

Your entire argument here can be neutralized by looking at who won the cup this year. Guess what, Vegas didn't give a crap how many points each player got they only cared about winning. You say top 6 guys are not here to shut down opposing players, well Vegas' top 6 does and they are contenders year over year because of it. You can value all your regular season goals, assist and points you want but when games matter the most defense wins (and this includes players in your top 6). 

Virtanen was a waste of tremendous talent, lots of athleticism and skill but for a variety of reasons lacked what was needed to be a long term NHLer.

 

You can’t teach scoring is very true you are either a scorer and embrace being relied on for that.  Some guys can’t handle the pressure of being “the guy”

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

But produced with Roussel, Guaudette on his line. If a guy is a defensive liability, but producing with little to no help… WHY WOULD YOU PUT HIM IN A POSITION TO FAIL????????????????? Thats just boneheaded to me. He produced 18g 18a with 3rd/4th line guys and only getting 13:05 TOI without ANY PP 1 time, border line PP 3 time when you look at the PP line combo he played on Gaudette, Pearson, Roussel lol wtf??

So what do they do the following season? Reduce his ice time, give him far more defensive zone starts which.. idk if you are aware…. That means his defensive game was actually trusted. Our goalies always had a very respectable sv% when he was on the ice and our goalies didnt allow many goals in. 
but like wtf???? How does that make sense at all?? Hes a goal scorer, drafted for that reason alone, yet he never had the leash Boeser, McCann, Horvat and other young guys had. Slotted in with top 6 line mates, given PP 1 time, given more ice time, more ozone starts.

Virtanen was mishandled completely and it seemed Green just wasnt a fan of him, which was indicated by his 5v5 TOI AND PP TOI being reduced each time he had a good season.

Dude.  Give it up.  EDM gave him

a PTO ... and let him go.   He wasn't as good as you thought.   Or anyone really.   As for Green.  Guess your weren't paying much attention back then, but he gave him lots of chances.   Every single off season was given targets to make, each time he came in out of shape.   JV floated,   and expected the NHL to be easier than it was.   

Edited July 25, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Consistently increased his totals. Each. And. Every. Season. Yet they made it harder and harder for him to be able to produce. It wasnt until Green made it nearly impossible for him to produce, that he struggled.

Boeser, McCann and Pettersson were all handed top 6 opportunities without proving anything and handed PP1 time, Without earning any of it. 
Virtanen was mishandled. 

Maybe he new about his off ice crap.   That matters too.   Green ... if he so "mishandled" JV, why isn't he in the league right now playing awesome somewhere else?   JV was an entitled young player who didn't continue working on his craft.   Why should he get  more than say Tyler Motte, who worked his butt off every shift.    We all know JB made a mistake after JV's 18 goal season ... 18 goals!  Good grief.  Why don't we start getting upset over someone like Sandlak or Momesso!   Well that's easy enough.   They actually played every shift like it could be their last.  Taylor Pyatt well that was JV's ceiling or so it seemed lol.   JV can come back next year  and make fools of us all now if he likes.   He's no Cam Neely.  He's also not even close to a Sergio Momesso either.   Not even a Pyatt.   He's a waste of time,  let it go. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Consistently increased his totals. Each. And. Every. Season. Yet they made it harder and harder for him to be able to produce. It wasnt until Green made it nearly impossible for him to produce, that he struggled.

Boeser, McCann and Pettersson were all handed top 6 opportunities without proving anything and handed PP1 time, Without earning any of it. 
Virtanen was mishandled. 

Huh?  Brock absolutely earned his PP1 chances.   Go back and look at his rookie year.   And when Green added him to the PP1.   Sedins pre Brock 23rd in the league.   Added Brock to the PP 9th!   JV never did that.    As for EP.  Goldobin!  Yikes his linemate.   He also earned it.   JV... They probably should have left him in the AHL.   Not even sure why McAan is brought up.  

[Viper007]

34 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Dude.  Give it up.  EDM gave him

a PTO ... and let him go.   He wasn't as good as you thought.   Or anyone really.   As for Green.  Guess your weren't paying much attention back then, but he gave him lots of chances.   Every single off season was given targets to make, each time he came in out of shape.   JV floated,   and expected the NHL to be easier than it was.   

Well, I don't think Jake was ready for the season to start.  He was dealing with the court, so his preparation time was most likely hampered.  Let's see if anybody else gives him a chance.  He might show better, or maybe he went back to his old ways and has no conditioning.  Who knows other than him and his circle of friends/family.  I hope for his sake that he's smartened up.

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, tas said:

it's about earning trust through consistency in effort and intention, which Jake never exhibited. 

 

2 hours ago, Highstickin said:

Making the statement "you can teach defence, you can't teach scoring" is simply a lie. I agree that offense is not easy to learn but playing solid defense takes commitment, the IQ to read plays and the heart to play physical/punishing hockey. There are a lot of players now that are not willing to put in the effort in the D-zone because a) all they want are stats on a sheet of paper & b) they don't want to get their hands dirty. 

 

Your entire argument here can be neutralized by looking at who won the cup this year. Guess what, Vegas didn't give a crap how many points each player got they only cared about winning. You say top 6 guys are not here to shut down opposing players, well Vegas' top 6 does and they are contenders year over year because of it. You can value all your regular season goals, assist and points you want but when games matter the most defense wins (and this includes players in your top 6). 

Well said. Obviously he didn't earn it from the coaches point of view. This is something that is hard to see/judge through your tv set. Boeser isn't a good defender but he constantly gets put in the top 6 by all coaches. Maybe he tries harder at practice while Virtanen is laughing it up and dogging it during drills. Who knows. Sometimes it's very easy to see some guys just don't and likely will never get it. I'd imagine that's at least part of the situation with Virtanen. A bad investment. Ancient history anyway. 

 

The best teams are the ones where the top 6 take pride in winning the head to head battles equally at both ends of the ice. We can score but our top 6 has a long way to go to compete with the Vegas'  of the league. Hopefully RT has them revved up and committed to start the year. A lot of defence is simple determination. Petey has it in spades.

[Crimson-JH]

On 7/11/2023 at 7:10 PM, Barnstorm said:

His hands would attest to that, Huge. 

Never seen such a wide hand and fingers for a guy who is 6’1. I bet his hockey gloves fits…well… like a glove! 
 

[AnthonyG]

On 7/25/2023 at 4:03 PM, IBatch said:

Huh?  Brock absolutely earned his PP1 chances.   Go back and look at his rookie year.   And when Green added him to the PP1.   Sedins pre Brock 23rd in the league.   Added Brock to the PP 9th!   JV never did that.    As for EP.  Goldobin!  Yikes his linemate.   He also earned it.   JV... They probably should have left him in the AHL.   Not even sure why McAan is brought up.  

Huh? Brock earned 1:46PP TOI in 9 games? Then his rookie season was handed 2:55PP TOI ? Because he earned it? Some how? Never went from PP2 to PP1. Go back and look at his linemates. Instantly slotted in the top 6 from day 1

Brock was gifted opportunities and he made the most of it. Virtanen never had a meaningless 9 game stint. Those 9 games it didnt matter what the results were, it was all about evaluating players. Virtanen, as he produced more each season, received less TOI and more dzone starts… WHAT?!??! How does that even make sense?? Produces more… so they reduce his ice time AND move him further away from the net AND give him crappier linemates? He didnt earn any more TOI or more ozone starts? Or better linemates? Why the f*** was that not being rewarded and how the hell do you not consider that earning???

 

As for EP, he still had BB6 stapled to his line. So its not as if his entire line was crap. Goldobin DID possess skill and speed. He just was soft.

On 7/25/2023 at 3:57 PM, IBatch said:

Maybe he new about his off ice crap.   That matters too.   Green ... if he so "mishandled" JV, why isn't he in the league right now playing awesome somewhere else?   JV was an entitled young player who didn't continue working on his craft.   Why should he get  more than say Tyler Motte, who worked his butt off every shift.    We all know JB made a mistake after JV's 18 goal season ... 18 goals!  Good grief.  Why don't we start getting upset over someone like Sandlak or Momesso!   Well that's easy enough.   They actually played every shift like it could be their last.  Taylor Pyatt well that was JV's ceiling or so it seemed lol.   JV can come back next year  and make fools of us all now if he likes.   He's no Cam Neely.  He's also not even close to a Sergio Momesso either.   Not even a Pyatt.   He's a waste of time,  let it go. 

Lol if he knew about his off ice crap, management would know…. And ownership… not a good look for the organization.

 

18 goal season on 3rd/4th line duties with 13:05 TOI and PP2 duties… um YA that is impressive. That was more than Boeser and only a few behind the rest of the top 6 and PP1 guys.

 

Didnt continue to work on his craft….. after his demotion, he came back in shape…. Produced and added to his totals each season, had few giveaways and a pretty good amount of takeaways, always more takeaways than giveaways. finished his checks, rarely got scored on, goalies had very respectable oiSV%…. But was always given weak linemates, more dzone starts, less PP and 5v5 TOI..What more can ask of the guy??? 
He went to a party and drank water and refrained from alcohol, people took a picture and immediately jumped to conclusions. Then he is accused of rape, instantly he’s labelled guilty. You guys are bias and let your hate and distaste for a young teen who has the spotlight in him 24/7 influence your views on him. You fail to look at the real picture and instead look at the picture at a bar and think thats the guy. I am one of the very few posters here that ALWAYS looks at the other side of things, you all just sit their with your closed minds and act like you know whats up and dont take a single second to maybe try looking at it from a different perspective.

lol Virtanen threw nearly as many hits in 1 season as Pyatt did in 2. He also never got the same opportunities as Pyatt. 
You cannot deny that JV was mishandled. Produces yet gets demoted. Lol

 

 

[-DLC-]

 

On 7/25/2023 at 7:48 AM, AnthonyG said:

Virtanen was mishandled completely and it seemed Green just wasnt a fan of him, which was indicated by his 5v5 TOI AND PP TOI being reduced each time he had a good season.

Aw, poor Jake. Carousing and showing up totally out of shape then not getting to be special.

 

He's so misunderstood. 

 

The real picture was that Jake failed to produce consistently and his lifestyle likely factored in. Had he perhaps had a different mindset and focused better on the opportunity he was given maybe he would've lasted. If you're putting yourself in a situation where you may look guilty/bad maybe refrain from being in those situations in the first place? Hockey offers a good life but it also comes with responsibility.

 

I mean, people getting clean often have to cut all ties from their former (party) life in order to build a better one. Not sure he distanced himself enough from the stuff that was leading to his demise.

 

Worst crew ever and he advertised it. If he'd buckled down and been more serious maybe he would've avoided some of the stuff that made him "look" bad.  It wasn't a one off...the accusation of rape was the straw.

 

We have players in place who DO want to succeed and still have fun without dancing on the line. Jake's had his five minutes of fame and shotguns. So over hearing about him. Had so much potential and I held out hope for him but he made choices and that's his deal.