Gilman with the best Horvat insight yet

[coastal.view]

1 hour ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

McDavid and Leon are the GMMG's longest lasting mistake.  Had Edmonton gotten a tiny bit out of the gutter, they would have had neither, or JP... Damn.  

i think you nailed it

cuz it was obvious to anyone with eyes

that the oilers would move up the draft ladder by winning he draft that year

complete management messed up by canuck gm

[HockeydownUnder]

1 hour ago, lmm said:

It puts pressure on both the player and manager to take care of their own business.

You don't want another Burrows situation where you underpay for too long then feel obligated to overpay later.

While I agree with you in a sense, Burrows actually worked out as we still got a healthy return on him and we got him for cheap while we were competative.

 

Since we aren't competative at the moment though, perhaps paying Horvat slightly more now could pay off down the road if he's willing to take a pay cut later

[lmm]

5 minutes ago, HockeydownUnder said:

While I agree with you in a sense, Burrows actually worked out as we still got a healthy return on him and we got him for cheap while we were competative.

 

Since we aren't competative at the moment though, perhaps paying Horvat slightly more now could pay off down the road if he's willing to take a pay cut later

I don't really understand CDCs passion for "hometown discounts".

The Canucks seem to be a club that does not understand the Cap even though they hired a capologist and tried to sneak around it in the Gillis era, and Bennning just seems lost. 

As far as Bo goes I don't think you want him giving you a discount if he is the leader we all hope he will be. We don't want Bo going to the all star game and being the lowest paid player there while we are still paying Loui $6M to stay home in 3 years. Hockey players are a proud bunch, they think they are worth every penny paid and it is not in their nature to think "Wow the Canucks were good to me over paying me at $5m for six years, I think I'll give them a discount for the next 8". And seriously that is not the leader you want, is it? It reminds me of a story I saw about Paul Karyia in Colorado., Some bum was giving him a hard time on HNIC because he drove a Lexus. We don't want Bo, our Captain driving a Lexus.

Athletes, rock stars, actors, they live in a fantacy world. None of them are worth the ridulous $$s they make, but what they make is relative to those around them.  

I don't want our captain and leader making $5m when he sould be paid $7m and I don't want him making $13m either, unless he wins us multiple Cups, score 3 series winning goals, punches out Ryan Kesler along the way and winks at me on the way to the bench. Then he will be worth $13m.

[PistolPete13]

11 hours ago, oldnews said:

 

ironic, considering the most whined about contract in Benning's tenure is the guy "lord" in your avatar.

A contract LV elected to select in the expansion draft - buffering the Canucks from a different loss in the ED.

 

Won't ask about the other outrageous contracts you're referring to (ones during Gilman's tenure that may have precipitated differences with the current management group) - but will say that it's hard to take your flip-flop homer/hater thing too seriously my friend.

 

 

Maybe someone needs to apollogize 

[HockeydownUnder]

5 minutes ago, lmm said:

I don't really understand CDCs passion for "hometown discounts".

The Canucks seem to be a club that does not understand the Cap even though they hired a capologist and tried to sneak around it in the Gillis era, and Bennning just seems lost. 

As far as Bo goes I don't think you want him giving you a discount if he is the leader we all hope he will be. We don't want Bo going to the all star game and being the lowest paid player there while we are still paying Loui $6M to stay home in 3 years. Hockey players are a proud bunch, they think they are worth every penny paid and it is not in their nature to think "Wow the Canucks were good to me over paying me at $5m for six years, I think I'll give them a discount for the next 8". And seriously that is not the leader you want, is it? It reminds me of a story I saw about Paul Karyia in Colorado., Some bum was giving him a hard time on HNIC because he drove a Lexus. We don't want Bo, our Captain driving a Lexus.

Athletes, rock stars, actors, they live in a fantacy world. None of them are worth the ridulous $$s they make, but what they make is relative to those around them.  

I don't want our captain and leader making $5m when he sould be paid $7m and I don't want him making $13m either, unless he wins us multiple Cups, score 3 series winning goals, punches out Ryan Kesler along the way and winks at me on the way to the bench. Then he will be worth $13m.

I dont think anyone on here is recommending pay him 13 mil. 7 is still pretty steep for his production thus far.

 

I got into an argument with someone recently who believes he should get 3.8

(Sadly the same guy schooled me on 1 way and 2 way contracts). I think somewhere around 5 - 5.5 is fair. I'd be willing to go higher though on a long term contract

[lmm]

1 minute ago, HockeydownUnder said:

I dont think anyone on here is recommending pay him 13 mil. 7 is still pretty steep for his production thus far.

 

I got into an argument with someone recently who believes he should get 3.8

(Sadly the same guy schooled me on 1 way and 2 way contracts). I think somewhere around 5 - 5.5 is fair. I'd be willing to go higher though on a long term contract

I agree with $5-5.5 M but I still view it as a bridge contract.

He led a woesful offence in points, has not shown the on ice leadership I would like to see,( one fight does not have me convinced) there is lots of room for improvement.

That is why I say sign him to a shorter contract.

At $3.8M you are saying EE, Big Balls, and 1/2 your inadaquate D are worth more than Bo. That is a slap in the face.

[captainhorvat]

As much as i didnt agree with the gilman firing. I think hes jus talking out of his a** rightnow and taking a gamble by saying Horvats the real deal. Im a big Horvat fan but i dont think LG and company thought Bo had the potential to be this good.

[captainhorvat]

I was a fan of LG but I think this market over hypes him way too much. Big deal we labeled him as a "Capalogist" thrs plenty of more than qualified people out thr that can do the same thing.

[iinatcc]

46 minutes ago, captainhorvat said:

As much as i didnt agree with the gilman firing. I think hes jus talking out of his a** rightnow and taking a gamble by saying Horvats the real deal. Im a big Horvat fan but i dont think LG and company thought Bo had the potential to be this good.

I mean Horvat wasn't event the BPA at 9th. He was actually ranked 14th or 15th at Central Scouting. 

So I suspect Vancouver had a ton of faith in his ability to go off the board. 

 

Also interesting Gillman mentioned Barkov, which makes me think he probably was ranked #1 in Vancouver's list that year. 

[Baggins]

14 hours ago, Erik Karlsson said:

Most likely, heard he wasn't a fan of the Dorsett and Sbisa contracts. Which are both pretty big overpayments imo. Way too much money for a 4th liner and an bottom pairing d-man.

 

Seems like Benning is improving a bit on contracts, but then again the Eriksson contract is probably one of the worst in the league... Makes no sense to me considering almost everyone knew Eriksson was only going to get slower and decline due to his age... 

I actually didn't mind either of those deals. Sbisa's was a progressive deal (a raise each year). He was young and it was basically assuming he would improve over the course of the deal and he did. Dorsett just had a 25 point season, led all forwards in hits, was 3rd in blocked shots, and had more takeaways than giveaways. It's enough to rank him a pretty decent 3rd line player. Neither deal had any form of ntc involved, which is what typically gets you a discount. Ultimately neither was a deal for us but aren't outrageous either. People have gotten too use to players having loyalty here and willing to give a discount to stay. Neither Sbisa or Dorsett had been here long enough (both one season) to have that kind of team loyalty or desire to stay.

 

Ericksons season was disappointing but considering the goals he scored the year before his deal was pretty reasonable. What I like about the deal is it's front loaded and the NMC becomes an NTC and then no NTC. Meaning in the final two years he'll be easy to move to a poor team looking for cap but low salary. Hopefully he has a much better coming year. Ultimately it's not a contract that's likely to hurt us with more elc's coming on the roster through it's duration.

[ice orca]

4 hours ago, captainhorvat said:

As much as i didnt agree with the gilman firing. I think hes jus talking out of his a** rightnow and taking a gamble by saying Horvats the real deal. Im a big Horvat fan but i dont think LG and company thought Bo had the potential to be this good.

 Did you watch that draft? Horvat was one of the kids that was a riser, lots of the insiders had him in the top 10 after his late season and playoffs with London. Gilman is not talking out out of his ass, Bo has progressed every year at a very good rate. He is going to be everything Gillis and Gilman said about him plus more. Gilman said in that interview the things he was surprised about was his point and goal production this early on as well as his rapid progression in his skating.

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, lmm said:

I don't really understand CDCs passion for "hometown discounts".

The Canucks seem to be a club that does not understand the Cap even though they hired a capologist and tried to sneak around it in the Gillis era, and Bennning just seems lost. 

As far as Bo goes I don't think you want him giving you a discount if he is the leader we all hope he will be. We don't want Bo going to the all star game and being the lowest paid player there while we are still paying Loui $6M to stay home in 3 years. Hockey players are a proud bunch, they think they are worth every penny paid and it is not in their nature to think "Wow the Canucks were good to me over paying me at $5m for six years, I think I'll give them a discount for the next 8". And seriously that is not the leader you want, is it? It reminds me of a story I saw about Paul Karyia in Colorado., Some bum was giving him a hard time on HNIC because he drove a Lexus. We don't want Bo, our Captain driving a Lexus.

Athletes, rock stars, actors, they live in a fantacy world. None of them are worth the ridulous $$s they make, but what they make is relative to those around them.  

I don't want our captain and leader making $5m when he sould be paid $7m and I don't want him making $13m either, unless he wins us multiple Cups, score 3 series winning goals, punches out Ryan Kesler along the way and winks at me on the way to the bench. Then he will be worth $13m.

Your right about them wanting to get paid, unfortunately the stars and veterans of each team gobble up a way larger piece of the pie than they deserve under the cap, and the middle class NHLers are been squeezed for it, leaving teams to rely on ELCs and underpaying certain guys to get under.  Every player wants as much as they can.  Based on points Gagne deserves close to half what McDavid is getting as an example, but instead of earning six million, he's making closer to three.  In CHI Toews will be earning ten million for a long time yet, for his fifty points.  Should guys scoring twenty-five to thirty therefore earn five million?  Kopitar and his ten million until he's almost forty...for maybe an average of fifty points again.  

 

UFAs get paid for past production, at the expense of pretty much everything else.  There exceptions, Stamkos for example - the epitome of a home town discount if there ever was one, with reports of 12-14 million floating around if a price war started a day after he signed with Tampa at basically what he was already earning (slightly more than Sedins type money), but for the most part three or four veterans and superstars are gobbling up to a third of the CAP on all teams, and five or six over half on the worst teams CHI.  It must create a strange locker room culture when so much is been tied up for relatively so little production, and guys that are carrying a reasonable part of the load are getting so little in return.

 

This has been written about, it appears the CAP era has created two economies within the dressing room, the Uber rich and elite, and the rest whom support them with their pay cuts. 

[spook007]

17 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

While we had all those Gilman/Gillis contracts all people could do is complain, now people love them. Flip flop continues here. Are we or are we against Gilman/Gillis contracts? Those deals came with NTCs. Things some people love to complain about.

Bingo.... that's exactly it. 

True we've been saddled with Ntc for a lot of players, but without these we would not have been able to assemble the 2011 team. Those players would either have demanded more dosh or not signed in the first place. 

[spook007]

12 hours ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

McDavid and Leon are the GMMG's longest lasting mistake.  Had Edmonton gotten a tiny bit out of the gutter, they would have had neither, or JP... Damn.  

Maybe yes and maybe no.... 

[JM_]

11 hours ago, lmm said:

however if you treat your player well, and give him room to grow into a new contract, there is no reason to fear him jumping ship at the first available opening.

Six years at $5M seems a bit long, maybe four years and you negotiate a new deal when he is 26 and the Captain of your club.

At that point you are gambling that the club is trending upward and so Bo wants to stay.

If you are still drafting top five by then he might want out.

It puts pressure on both the player and manager to take care of their own business.

You don't want another Burrows situation where you underpay for too long then feel obligated to overpay later.

its not about fear tho. When you have young talent, you lock it up long term. 

[lmm]

Just now, S'all Good Man said:

its not about fear tho. When you have young talent, you lock it up long term. 

why?

 

[JM_]

17 minutes ago, lmm said:

why?

 

because it allows you to attract better role players at better rates and contracts later on when the team is ready to compete. Chicago is the perfect example. Role guys go there for less term and money because of the core and a chance to win. Not saying Bo is Toews, but he his likely the next captain and looks to be an ideal #2C. So he's one of the guys to build around. 

[Misconduct16]

I find it a curious venture to look at all the players from Horvats draft year and see the production, and subsequent contracts handed out. Didn't have time to delve deep into corsi etc, or first assists vs second assists, but it looks like the best comparable for Horvat (in point progression etc) may be Wennberg who I believe is still an RFA as well.

It will be interesting to see who signs first, and if that sets the others value... Also be curious to see what the similar guys coming up for deals next year will get in Lindholm, Domi, Petan.
 

Pick #	Team	Name	Pos	GP	G	A	P	G/GP	A/GP	P/GP	AAV	Term
1	Colorado	Nathan MacKinnon	C	300	75	131	206	0.25	0.44	0.69	$6,300,000.00	7
6	Calgary	Sean Monahan	C	319	107	110	217	0.34	0.34	0.68	$6,375,000.00	7
2	Florida	Aleksander Barkov	C	252	73	98	171	0.29	0.39	0.68	$5,900,000.00	6
12	Phoenix	Max Domi	C	140	27	63	90	0.19	0.45	0.64	ELC	3
3	Tampa Bay	Jonathan Drouin	L	164	29	66	95	0.18	0.40	0.58	$5,500,000.00	6
20	Detroit	Anthony Mantha	R	70	19	20	39	0.27	0.29	0.56	ELC	3
14	Columbus	Alexander Wennberg	C	217	25	94	119	0.12	0.43	0.55	RFA	0
9	Vancouver	Bo Horvat	C	231	49	68	117	0.21	0.29	0.51	RFA	0
5	Carolina	Elias Lindholm	C	293	48	96	144	0.16	0.33	0.49	$2,700,000.00	2
23	Washington	Andre Burakovsky	L	196	38	57	95	0.19	0.29	0.48	$3,000,000.00	2
27	Columbus	Marko Dano	C	107	17	25	42	0.16	0.23	0.39	ELC	3
10	Dallas	Valeri Nichushkin	R	166	23	41	64	0.14	0.25	0.39	RFA	0
55	Montreal	Artturi Lehkonen	L	73	18	10	28	0.25	0.14	0.38	ELC	3
30	Chicago	Ryan Hartman	L	84	19	13	32	0.23	0.15	0.38	ELC	3
43	Winnipeg	Nicolas Petan	C	80	3	16	19	0.04	0.20	0.24	ELC	3
17	Ottawa	Curtis Lazar	C	180	13	26	39	0.07	0.14	0.22	$950,000.00	1
25	Montreal	Michael McCarron	R	51	2	5	7	0.04	0.10	0.14	ELC	3
34	Montreal	Jacob De La Rose	C	64	4	3	7	0.06	0.05	0.11	$725,000.00	1

 

Either way, looking at this board I could see Horvat getting a 4.5-6M on a 6 or 7 year deal and it would line up with his draft year comparables.

[Rush17]

48 minutes ago, Misconduct16 said:

I find it a curious venture to look at all the players from Horvats draft year and see the production, and subsequent contracts handed out. Didn't have time to delve deep into corsi etc, or first assists vs second assists, but it looks like the best comparable for Horvat (in point progression etc) may be Wennberg who I believe is still an RFA as well.

It will be interesting to see who signs first, and if that sets the others value... Also be curious to see what the similar guys coming up for deals next year will get in Lindholm, Domi, Petan.
 

Pick #	Team	Name	Pos	GP	G	A	P	G/GP	A/GP	P/GP	AAV	Term
1	Colorado	Nathan MacKinnon	C	300	75	131	206	0.25	0.44	0.69	$6,300,000.00	7
6	Calgary	Sean Monahan	C	319	107	110	217	0.34	0.34	0.68	$6,375,000.00	7
2	Florida	Aleksander Barkov	C	252	73	98	171	0.29	0.39	0.68	$5,900,000.00	6
12	Phoenix	Max Domi	C	140	27	63	90	0.19	0.45	0.64	ELC	3
3	Tampa Bay	Jonathan Drouin	L	164	29	66	95	0.18	0.40	0.58	$5,500,000.00	6
20	Detroit	Anthony Mantha	R	70	19	20	39	0.27	0.29	0.56	ELC	3
14	Columbus	Alexander Wennberg	C	217	25	94	119	0.12	0.43	0.55	RFA	0
9	Vancouver	Bo Horvat	C	231	49	68	117	0.21	0.29	0.51	RFA	0
5	Carolina	Elias Lindholm	C	293	48	96	144	0.16	0.33	0.49	$2,700,000.00	2
23	Washington	Andre Burakovsky	L	196	38	57	95	0.19	0.29	0.48	$3,000,000.00	2
27	Columbus	Marko Dano	C	107	17	25	42	0.16	0.23	0.39	ELC	3
10	Dallas	Valeri Nichushkin	R	166	23	41	64	0.14	0.25	0.39	RFA	0
55	Montreal	Artturi Lehkonen	L	73	18	10	28	0.25	0.14	0.38	ELC	3
30	Chicago	Ryan Hartman	L	84	19	13	32	0.23	0.15	0.38	ELC	3
43	Winnipeg	Nicolas Petan	C	80	3	16	19	0.04	0.20	0.24	ELC	3
17	Ottawa	Curtis Lazar	C	180	13	26	39	0.07	0.14	0.22	$950,000.00	1
25	Montreal	Michael McCarron	R	51	2	5	7	0.04	0.10	0.14	ELC	3
34	Montreal	Jacob De La Rose	C	64	4	3	7	0.06	0.05	0.11	$725,000.00	1

 

Either way, looking at this board I could see Horvat getting a 4.5-6M on a 6 or 7 year deal and it would line up with his draft year comparables.

bo's ppg totals are closer to lindholm who got a 2.9 mill.  not sure the types of matchups elias had though in comparison.  if he's in the low 5's i wont be upset. anything over 5.25 though is to much.

[xereau]

I think the best possible cast scenario for the team is a generous bridge deal -- 2 years at 5m per, and then a big time 8 year contract so we get 4+ UFA years out of Bo.

 

8 minutes ago, Rush17 said:

bo's ppg totals are closer to lindholm who got a 2.9 mill.  not sure the types of matchups elias had though in comparison.  if he's in the low 5's i wont be upset. anything over 5.25 though is to much.

You watch the games right?  The Sedins rag the puck for 101 seconds, and Bo gets 5-10 seconds in the offensive PP zone.   When deployed as 1st unit (~1 in 10 times) his unit was putting in goals at three times the clip of the Sedin line in the second half of the season.  Plus Bo was getting the most defensive zone starts, PKing, and still managed to lead the team in points.  Putting up 5 on 5, hard minute points is FAR more indicative of character and skill than potting in keep away (PP) points.