Why do some excessively criticize prospects?

[Down by the River]

10 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Which opinion am I currently wrong about?

I change my mind daily on all sorts of things. Be more specific. 

1. The prevalence of apollo-like posters.

2. That this has something to do with being a "social justice warrior"

[TheGuardian_]

Good post Robb

There are many thoughtful responses as well. Not too much trolling of particular posters.

 

I think it is remarkable that the NHL has so many "clean" players, in today's social life, with everyone having cameras or every move on some media site it is quite remarkable and speaks well for those in hockey in general. I remember when traffic cameras were a big issue over personal privacy, when the Atlanta Olympics had 26 cameras and that was a big issue.

The greater media does it's share of not reporting everything they know, Kassian's problems were known so are a few others, but for the most part in hockey they are kept private.

 

As far as prospects go, I am not critical of most prospects, I do get on about the "projections" of how each one will make the team and turn the team around, to me a prospect is what the word means, a prospect. I am not getting on them in a negative way, I just don't count them on the team until they are there but I do criticize management for selling them as sure things or basically lying and selling snake oil to the fans, I do critique management and hold their "professional" feet to the fire. For their first three years here this management group was totally incompetent and I am allowed to look back at their comments and actions for comparison without trying to interpret them by adding hidden meanings. 

 

Many things with this team are discussed, unfortunately rarely is their overall performance, when a team is as bad as this one has been management likes to see individual players under the microscope, the spot light diverted from their performance, for the PR department to add "mysterious" meaning to simple statements. Going into year 5 and in reality year 6 of decline without any "push" from the fans for improvement will/has led to a bad team, Gillis is gone 4 years ago and he sill gets blamed for some things even though his draft picks/signings are the backbone of the team still, just something to muddy the waters of this management groups learning curve. If the arena keeps getting sold out where is the emphasis for improvement? There is a good example of a "hands off owner" and a market that sold out year after year, TO. Good enough to make the playoffs every couple of years and that was it, sell out after sell out.

 

Blame the owner, blame the previous GM, talk about individual players, talk about good prospects, talk about good/bad prospects, discuss contract expectations, blame bad lottery luck, now that is legit, talk about anything other than the gauge of how good a team is, the standings or the gents who run the team. That happened for a month or two, critiquing the Pres and GM and then the diminishing "pro everything" crowd made themselves heard, while the silent majority lost interest in the team.

 

I don't critique this teams drafted players very often, I do comment quite a bit about how management handles the two or three draftees over the years, as an example Virtanen, he has the size for 3rd/4th line duties but he wasn't drafted to do that and his opportunities for top six have been stifled with a short leash IMO. OJ is an exception mostly due to his draft position and expectations of that position and the supposed drafting genius of the GM, but he will be given a much longer leash and almost gifted a spot, otherwise there could be the embarrassment of a bad selection or admission of blowing a pick. 

 

I want to see these much ballyhooed prospects playing in the NHL, I want to see what they can do and how much work has yet to be done for the team to competitive in the PLAYOFFS, I want to give these kids more than half a chance and I believe that they are much more prepared to step directly into the show for at least 9 games with full ice time. Hockey, like all sports is a game of mistakes, make less than the other team and have success, how to force mistakes is the strategy. I don't blame young prospective players for mistakes, but it do blame management for destroying the players confidence. Look up my posts and you find that I comment on how these kids are looking to the bench at every opportunity, they are afraid to make an error, I critique the coach(s) who appear to forget that teaching doesn't/shouldn't stop once the game starts, see the mistake, talk about the mistake and get out there while it fresh in the mind and correct the mistake. Give the kids every chance to succeed, create an environment for learning, build on strengths.

 

The game has changed, no longer does it or should it take 5+ years to rebuild/retool, that is real old school thinking and I won't even use Vegas as an example here because they are unique.

 

IMO this team is in year 6 of decline with another 2 years to go for a playoff berth depending upon how much other divisional teams tank for a quick turn around.

[Down by the River]

2 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Why bother even coming on the forum to have discussions if it's just supposed to be "yeah well things happen, oh well"? Critical thinking and expectations give us things to discuss beyond what is and isn't happening. It's a discussion board where tons of ideas and opinions are thrown around. The fun part is getting into those debates with people. It's how you gain further knowledge and maybe see things you wouldn't normally see. Some fans see something in a player I may not. And I can apply that knowledge to my own, or lack there of. Expectations of prospects is one such way of garnering discussion. Sometimes it's unfair, but that's just life. 

These things are only worth discussing if they are reasonable opinions. By reasonable I mean rational, not moderate.

 

Getting in debates with people is only fun if their opinion was reasonable in the first place. Otherwise it is a waste of time.

 

Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. 

[Nancouver]

Our whole society is obsessed with instant gratification. Whether it’s food, cars, dating, internet speed, purchasing anything, people want it faster. Unfortunately some people have this attitude towards prospects as well. If they don’t light up the nhl immediately they are busts. People are impatient especially when they’ve gone 48 years without a cup.

[The Lock]

I personally don't mind criticism. I think if we get offended by criticism that's our own problem and not actually the criticizer's problem.

 

That being said, while some criticism on this site has merit, other criticism I've seen on this site gets to be a bit much at times. Obviously, we are all passionate about our team, but passion can bring nitpicking and some of that nitpicking is just that: nitpicking.

 

Do we need more toughness? Sure, and that's fair criticism, but then people start singling out players on not having toughness when really toughness should be more of a general term and not every player should need to be tough. Do certain prospects need to bulk up? Of course, but not doing so as much as what some people want doesn't mean they are going to be this fragile malformed stick on the ice that gets injured every shift.

 

It's funny actually: I've started getting into game development and it's interesting to see how people react to certain games with updates. People want what they want now, covered in chocolate, and damn those who don't want what they want or those not willing to start a mob based around their "brilliant" ideas! CDC is certainly not an isolated case in this as it happens everywhere, especially on the internet.

[DrJockitch]

The nature of sports can be a love hate relationship of fans.  Ultimately at the end of the season, only one teams fans are satisfied, and even then I bet you find a lot critics on their boards.  Ultimately the elation that comes with winning comes from the suffering of losing.  You combine that with the era of anonymous internet bullies and trolls and the end result is CDC.

 

I agree that all of these young men deserve respect for the hard work they have put into getting where they are.  We also can't live with the assumption that these are good people because they are hockey players, or Canucks or whatever.  This has to be earned through there actions, also this is an area I don't feel comfortable with.  You will catch me saying that I don't think a player is very good but not that they are a scumbag or anything like that.  I long suspected what was going on with Kassian but never once brought it up on these boards, that kind of conjecture and finger pointing is just wrong (and I only bring it up now as an example of something that is well publicized).  While I have gotten into some of the debates about sexual assault cases in the past on these boards, it has always been in general statements and never specifics about a person or a case.

 

Constructive criticism is fair.  When someone has given up on a prospect after 1 or 2 years just because of what other members of their draft class have done says more about the critic than the player.  Their does need to be some leeway though for criticism of the management and to a lesser extent the prospect when they fail to live up to expectations, that is the whole point of having discussion boards and I think even though it gets hypercritical at times ultimately it is what the team wants because it keeps fans engaged and spending money.

 

As a final note, we tend to talk about fan boards collectively CDC, HF boards or other teams fan boards and that is just silly.  We are a hugely diverse group on CDC with a wide variety of truly just awful, mostly misguided opinions.  I don't want to be painted by the same brush as everyone who posts on this board just because I post my awful, misguided opinions here.

 

.Good post @Rob_Zepp but I think ultimately futile as won't change anyone's behaviour.

[Butters Stoch]

We'd just have an entire forum of Alfs and Hortankins saying stuff like "we have the bestest prospects" and "everyone else's prospect is poo" if everyone here had rose tinted lenses on and afraid to criticize anything Canucks. What's the point of a discussion board if everyone just had to blindly worship everything this team does? I'm personally pretty content with our team's prospect pool but I'm not going to blindly say it's perfect and has no room to be better. 

[189lb enforcers?]

3 hours ago, Down by the River said:

1. The prevalence of apollo-like posters.

2. That this has something to do with being a "social justice warrior"

I stand corrected then. 

 

Apparently, there are equal numbers of trolls here as there are cheerleaders. 

 

Apparently, whining for change about other’s behaviours...on-behalf, and unbeknownst, of others... isn’t the definition of a SJW. 

 

Apparently, consensus and group-think among fans makes for a better fan-base and individual fan experience because positivity is the key, or what is important, when discussing prospects. 

 

I learn something new everyday. 

 

 

 

 

Please Sir, keep me in mind next time you want to reveal some more wisdom and I will sit at your feet with a new-found interest and ability to set aside my critical thinking skills, in favour of yours. 

[Deathbyoompa]

This issue is a bit over blown imo.  This is a public forum. There are going to be dumb opinions posted on here and, all over the internet for that matter.

 

Want a forum where everybody plays nice. Make a private forum. It would be pretty boring reading an echo chamber of the same thoughts and, ideas.

 

Never could understand why ppl get so worked up over posts by ppl you don’t know or respect.

When you go into a discussion knowing that neither facts or, logic will help win the argument. Seems to me your better off just leaving it alone.

 

 

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Deathbyoompa said:

This issue is a bit over blown imo.  This is a public forum. There are going to be dumb opinions posted on here and, all over the internet for that matter.

 

Want a forum where everybody plays nice. Make a private forum. It would be pretty boring reading an echo chamber of the same thoughts and, ideas.

 

Never could understand why ppl get so worked up over posts by ppl you don’t know or respect.

When you go into a discussion knowing that neither facts or, logic will help win the argument. Seems to me your better off just leaving it alone.

 

 

 

Why even bother arguing.  Just state your opinion, and that’s enough.  

Juiolevi is going to be in our top four this season, and play more than 20 some nights.  

Jake will score 20 plus this year

Leafs suck, and will go backwards this season.

why argue with opinion? 

[Deathbyoompa]

17 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Why even bother arguing.  Just state your opinion, and that’s enough.  

Juiolevi is going to be in our top four this season, and play more than 20 some nights.  

Jake will score 20 plus this year

Leafs suck, and will go backwards this season.

why argue with opinion? 

Well Alf depends on the opinion and your best guess as to how reasonable a particular poster is.

 

For instance.

 

I believe the canucks have enough gritty players. Canucks should focus solely on smaller skilled forwards. 

 

This is is a debatable opinion.(not a good opinion mind you)

One needs only to point to the playoffs and the teams left standing to see nucks need way more grit to be effective come playoff time.

 

Nothing wrong with arguments over thoughts and ideas. It all comes down to wether or not you think it’s worth arguing with a poster in light of previous posts ect.

 

Side question involving this forum. How does one get rid of a misquote in a reply? The only thing that’s worked for me this far is to leave the sight. 

[Down by the River]

10 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I stand corrected then. 

 

Apparently, there are equal numbers of trolls here as there are cheerleaders. 

 

Apparently, whining for change about other’s behaviours...on-behalf, and unbeknownst, of others... isn’t the definition of a SJW. 

 

Apparently, consensus and group-think among fans makes for a better fan-base and individual fan experience because positivity is the key, or what is important, when discussing prospects. 

 

I learn something new everyday. 

 

 

 

 

Please Sir, keep me in mind next time you want to reveal some more wisdom and I will sit at your feet with a new-found interest and ability to set aside my critical thinking skills, in favour of yours. 

Although you criticize SJW (which I think typically are a group worthy of criticism) you also tend to commit the same silliness that they do, which involves over-exaggerating someone's point to attack their credibility. Specifically, you talk about the OP "whining". Maybe the OP is a whiner, but I don't think there is anything in their post that allows you to make such a statement with confidence. In other words, you are accusing someone of being something they are not, which is a key feature of being a SJW, you just happen to be on the opposite side of the political spectrum. Same approach, different ideology. 

 

You repeat this problem by accusing me of desiring group-think. I don't. I just don't want to listen to idiots on either side of the coin (for the record, I think the only guy I have on ignore is apollo). 

[189lb enforcers?]

11 minutes ago, Down by the River said:

Although you criticize SJW (which I think typically are a group worthy of criticism) you also tend to commit the same silliness that they do, which involves over-exaggerating someone's point to attack their credibility. Specifically, you talk about the OP "whining". Maybe the OP is a whiner, but I don't think there is anything in their post that allows you to make such a statement with confidence. In other words, you are accusing someone of being something they are not, which is a key feature of being a SJW, you just happen to be on the opposite side of the political spectrum. Same approach, different ideology. 

 

You repeat this problem by accusing me of desiring group-think. I don't. I just don't want to listen to idiots on either side of the coin (for the record, I think the only guy I have on ignore is apollo). 

Honestly, I am somewhat surprised.

That was a response I can respect enough to leave alone, not that there aren’t still elements in there of points connected with chewing gum, but because it was mainly a level, considered response. 

[Rob_Zepp]

12 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

The nature of sports can be a love hate relationship of fans.  Ultimately at the end of the season, only one teams fans are satisfied, and even then I bet you find a lot critics on their boards.  Ultimately the elation that comes with winning comes from the suffering of losing.  You combine that with the era of anonymous internet bullies and trolls and the end result is CDC.

 

I agree that all of these young men deserve respect for the hard work they have put into getting where they are.  We also can't live with the assumption that these are good people because they are hockey players, or Canucks or whatever.  This has to be earned through there actions, also this is an area I don't feel comfortable with.  You will catch me saying that I don't think a player is very good but not that they are a scumbag or anything like that.  I long suspected what was going on with Kassian but never once brought it up on these boards, that kind of conjecture and finger pointing is just wrong (and I only bring it up now as an example of something that is well publicized).  While I have gotten into some of the debates about sexual assault cases in the past on these boards, it has always been in general statements and never specifics about a person or a case.

 

Constructive criticism is fair.  When someone has given up on a prospect after 1 or 2 years just because of what other members of their draft class have done says more about the critic than the player.  Their does need to be some leeway though for criticism of the management and to a lesser extent the prospect when they fail to live up to expectations, that is the whole point of having discussion boards and I think even though it gets hypercritical at times ultimately it is what the team wants because it keeps fans engaged and spending money.

 

As a final note, we tend to talk about fan boards collectively CDC, HF boards or other teams fan boards and that is just silly.  We are a hugely diverse group on CDC with a wide variety of truly just awful, mostly misguided opinions.  I don't want to be painted by the same brush as everyone who posts on this board just because I post my awful, misguided opinions here.

 

.Good post @Rob_Zepp but I think ultimately futile as won't change anyone's behaviour.

Wasn't trying to change anyone's behaviour, was sincerely trying to get an understanding why some people do it.   Many insights were provided...including by some who do it.

[Crabcakes]

For me, it's the media.  

 

The media gets attention when it can create a visceral reaction from readers/viewers/listeners.  It's easier to be negative and if you get reactions, you get hits on twitter, or people calling in to shows, and you get noticed when people get upset.

 

Since newspapers are on the way out, it's all about survival for members of the media and that means being noticed.

 

Fans take their lead from the media.  Face it, most of our news and opinions start with the media.  I just hope that our critical thinking skills remain sharp.  

[Darius]

I find that CDC isnt too bad when it comes to criticizing prospects - compared to other forums that is.  Not so long ago (from my perspective) you could barely get info on prospects, the info came from newspapers and whatever news you could get from radio talk shows. The prospects were not scrutinized the way they are now.  Now its all instantaneous.  You can watch live games in developmental leagues, pull up comparative stats and follow players on social media.  You also have multiple online "magazines" and radio stations trying to survive by trying to stay relevant and interesting.  Staying interesting, in my mind, means being controversial and being critical.  Personally I find the tone of sites like Canucks Army to be a little condescending- the endless barrage of spreadsheet validation of their positions takes away the human side of the story.  Its all cut throat, and how it affects people doesnt matter - kinda reflective of our society today and how people interact with each other.

.

Now if you want excessively critical go to HFBOARDS Canucks.  There is a Juolevi thread (just an example) in there that will make you really wonder about what type of fan frequents those boards.  There is little mercy for the prospect, the GM, or anyone that even semi supports either of the two.  I almost feel shame that I cheer for the same team as some of those twits.  It will also put into perspective the relatively mild nature of the criticism we see in these forums.

[rekker]

It frustrates me how these young kids are under such a microscope. I blame a lot of it on the age we live in, information available to us, etc. We over analyse and observe because we can. Myself included. In the end it's fun to watch and keep track of prospects. Most important to keep in mind is to be patient. Development is usually an up and down process that takes time.

[Where'd Luongo?]

Because they got rushed to the NHL and people expect greatness immediately. A little more time in the AHL would let them season properly, but the Canucks are so bad right now that they are forced to put them in the lineup.

 

[CanadianRugby]

I think 10% of CDC would be a lot happier if they went to a cheerleading forum instead of a sports forum.  

 

When someone is good they're worshiped, when someone is bad they get dumped on.  That's sports.  The vast majority of time people overhype or treat our prospects with kid gloves.  I mean, this is the same CDC where Virtanen >>> Nylander/Ehlers and OJ >>>> Tkachuk right?  

 

Every thread there's people talking about how we have the best prospect pool in team history but apparently we're talking too mean about our prospects?  What???

 

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

I think 10% of CDC would be a lot happier if they went to a cheerleading forum instead of a sports forum.  

 

When someone is good they're worshiped, when someone is bad they get dumped on.  That's sports.  The vast majority of time people overhype or treat our prospects with kid gloves.  I mean, this is the same CDC where Virtanen >>> Nylander/Ehlers and OJ >>>> Tkachuk right?  

 

Every thread there's people talking about how we have the best prospect pool in team history but apparently we're talking too mean about our prospects?  What???

 

It’s good we have a variety of views.  This site would be BORING if we all drank green, blue, and white Kool Aid, right?  

I do agree that Jake and OJ are ten times better than the Losers on those other teams.