ba;;isticsports

Juolevi or 2018 pick

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On 2018-06-14 at 5:57 PM, Rob_Zepp said:

So you draft 7th and take Dobson (argument's sake) and returns to CHL next year.   The year after, Canucks think a year in Europe would be good for him as not quite ready for NHL and then you would say "nah, let's trade him for a pick as he isn't progressing".   I guess you could keep doing that forever and eventually get someone to give you instant gratification versus actually letting someone enter NHL at 20.

... the OP was just a hypothetical scenario.

 

There's no trading going on here.

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58 minutes ago, Mathew Barzal said:

... the OP was just a hypothetical scenario.

 

There's no trading going on here.

You never know, there is buzz your pick could be in play.   Have heard zero buzz OJ is in play - only thing there is that a few teams ( most recently Buffalo ) have apparently wanted his name included in any big deal.   Just buzz.

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On 14/06/2018 at 6:44 PM, higgyfan said:

Some fans tend to go a bit 'Chicken Little' when there's even a hint of bad news.

OJ has shown far, far, far more than just a hint of bad news, it's more like a deluge.

 

- All the players drafted around him have far surpassed him

- All the players drafted around him played in a much stronger league.

- He was so tired after playing a small number of games that he got healthy-scratched multiple times.

- He fell dramatically down his team's depth-chart.

- He only returned to the top-pairing late in the season thanks to injury.

- The 2nd half of his season was abysmal, although he improved in the playoffs.

- His coaches clearly don't think he's even close to ready for the NHL.

- His training is clearly deficient (a pro hockey player shouldn't be so tired he's getting scratched for conditioning/energy issues after so few games).

- Etc...

 

So many of these things shouldn't be happening to a top-5 pick.  It's very disconcerting.  And, we haven't even gotten to the back surgery yet...

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Posted (edited)
On 10/06/2018 at 9:17 AM, ba;;isticsports said:

Who would you consider more valuable to the Canucks right now, Juolevi or this years #7 pick?

 

If you were an opposing Gm which would you consider has higher value if you were to make a trade with the Canucks? 

 

Juolevi was a 5th round pick, and from what I remember, rated as one of the top 3 defencemen of that years draft picks (some were surprised when we never took Sergachev- (would you in a redraft)?

 

There are lots of different mock drafts (but using this one) who do you value more Juolevi or Dobson?  https://www.draftsite.com/nhl/mock-draft/2018/ 

 

Interestingly had we taken Matt Tkachuk in that draft we had another chance of  having another brother combo on the team, to go along with the Sedins, Courtnalls, Sweatt, Goulds

Joulevi was a late riser . Some worried he was made to look good because of the team he played 4 and were not convinced he was truly a top 5 pick. We shall see I guess. Hasn't looked as good as I had hoped , but he was also projected to take longer then the others to develope from the start. In a re draft I wouldn't take the chance personally,  but hindsight is 20 20. I was never a fan of that pick. If u go through my posts in that draft I said Sergachev was a much better pick. So far I was right. Maybe time will change that. 

Edited by cuporbust
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With Tkachuk dropping I would have rather us traded the pick for an 8th to 14th pick knowing that one of Sergachev, McAvoy, or Chychrun would be available. We maybe could have added a later pick and got a high 2nd back. I liked DeBrincat at the time and saw him as a top 10 talent who was undersized and a great gable in the early 2nd round. 

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Posted (edited)
On 10/06/2018 at 10:20 AM, Westcoasting said:

These kind of topics and conversation are so redundant. No one including scouting pros knows the final answers to what happens to prospects. Who heard of John Carlson in his first few years of hockey?

I agree.

 

Its not the drafting that matters anyway as much as the development, especially after the top few guys in a draft year. Thats why looking back on almost any choice is an exercise in futility and has examples of overachievers and underachievers relative to draft position or others taken before or after. Would {insert player name here} have developed the same way on the Canucks? 

 

Who knows? Its the development that makes a player not their draft position as we see time and again. 

Edited by wallstreetamigo
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6 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I agree.

 

Its not the drafting that matters anyway as much as the development, especially after the top few guys in a draft year. Thats why looking back on almost any choice is an exercise in futility and has examples of overachievers and underachievers relative to draft position or others taken before or after. Would {insert player name here} have developed the same way on the Canucks? 

 

Who knows? Its the development that makes a player not their draft position as we see time and again. 

You agree, and add something to the discussion

Isn't that the point of a discussion?

If people are not interested in discussing a topic, then they should ignore it and move on

 

Interesting point you brought up

We all make decisions in life that take us down different roads

Had Cam Neely stayed in Vancouver, would he have been the same player, or was it the environment and situation to excel?

There is no right or wrong answer to that comment, but can be interesting what people have to say on it

 

Was it the way the Canucks handled Neely and his development,or the opportunity of trying harder to prove himself when traded, was it the Bruins who did the work with Cam?

Everyone has opinion on why they think things happened and I enjoy them sharing their thoughts on all subjects

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Bouchard got better and he was playing for a bad team....I believe he will only continue to develop like Dobson will.

OJ and Bouchard; as well, trade assets to get another top 10 pick to get Dobson. All these players will grow with this new core and in three years will be a force to contend with. Quality over quantity...JB has assets to trade to be able to get a top pick (i.e., Tanev, Granlund, Hutton, Baer (however, I would not trade Baer)) ...in fact, trade next year 1st rounder for another team's top ten pick in order to get these Dman or Wahlstrom or Tkachuk if still available. Next year, Canucks should have another top ten pick...but why not trade it now to get one of these Dmen?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Pete M said:

Bouchard got better and he was playing for a bad team....I believe he will only continue to develop like Dobson will.

OJ and Bouchard; as well, trade assets to get another top 10 pick to get Dobson. All these players will grow with this new core and in three years will be a force to contend with. Quality over quantity...JB has assets to trade to be able to get a top pick (i.e., Tanev, Granlund, Hutton, Baer (however, I would not trade Baer)) ...in fact, trade next year 1st rounder for another team's top ten pick in order to get these Dman or Wahlstrom or Tkachuk if still available. Next year, Canucks should have another top ten pick...but why not trade it now to get one of these Dmen?

 

 

If all of BT, Wahlstrom, Boqvist, Hughs, Bouchard and Dobson are available at 7, who do you take, if you’re JB? 

 

 

 

I’d take the guy who wants to win the most; the guy who will do whatever the play demands and win. 

 

Easily, I pick BT, a clutch wrecking-ball who can play in any situation, dominate and win.

 

As much as I’d want a Dman, BT is too valuable to a rebuilding core to pass up. I wonder what Calgary would offer for him? 

 

 

Edited by 189lb enforcers?
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On 16/06/2018 at 7:03 PM, bloodycanuckleheads said:

OJ has shown far, far, far more than just a hint of bad news, it's more like a deluge.

 

- All the players drafted around him have far surpassed him

You are basically talking about Serg, Chychurn who were mature physically, so ready for the NHL and McAvoy who was an early surprise.  The other dmen in the 1st round, not so much.

 

On 16/06/2018 at 7:03 PM, bloodycanuckleheads said:

- All the players drafted around him played in a much stronger league.

Other than the names already mentioned, the other dmen in that draft were mostly playing in Jrs...so no.

 

On 16/06/2018 at 7:03 PM, bloodycanuckleheads said:

- He was so tired after playing a small number of games that he got healthy-scratched multiple times.

He was tired from playing in a number of international games.  Salo mentioned it a few weeks ago.

 

On 16/06/2018 at 7:03 PM, bloodycanuckleheads said:

- He fell dramatically down his team's depth-chart.

Not really.  Just a bit until he recouped his energy.

 

On 16/06/2018 at 7:03 PM, bloodycanuckleheads said:

- He only returned to the top-pairing late in the season thanks to injury.

At 19yrs old, he really wasn't expected to be a top pairing dman in a men's league.

 

On 16/06/2018 at 7:03 PM, bloodycanuckleheads said:

- The 2nd half of his season was abysmal, although he improved in the playoffs.

It took him some time to adjust to playing on the top pairing, but he improved long before the playoffs.  By the time the POs rolled around, he was the best dman on the team.

 

On 16/06/2018 at 7:03 PM, bloodycanuckleheads said:

- His coaches clearly don't think he's even close to ready for the NHL.

Salo just recently stated that Olli was NHL ready and fully expect him to make the team this coming season.

 

On 16/06/2018 at 7:03 PM, bloodycanuckleheads said:

- His training is clearly deficient (a pro hockey player shouldn't be so tired he's getting scratched for conditioning/energy issues after so few games).

His condition was poor when he was at training camp last season, for sure.  Like other Canuck rookies, he put on the wrong kind of weight, which carried over to Finland.  He was a jr player before Liiga, so he was not a pro.

 

On 16/06/2018 at 7:03 PM, bloodycanuckleheads said:

- Etc...

WTF is this?  Video addiction?

 

On 16/06/2018 at 7:03 PM, bloodycanuckleheads said:

 

So many of these things shouldn't be happening to a top-5 pick.  It's very disconcerting.  And, we haven't even gotten to the back surgery yet...

Recent updates on the surgery have been very positive.  I fully expect him to be ready and steady at training camp.  The Nucks are overloaded with dmen, so he may have to start out in Utica for a bit.

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29 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

You are basically talking about Serg, Chychurn who were mature physically, so ready for the NHL and McAvoy who was an early surprise.  The other dmen in the 1st round, not so much.

 

Other than the names already mentioned, the other dmen in that draft were mostly playing in Jrs...so no.

 

He was tired from playing in a number of international games.  Salo mentioned it a few weeks ago.

 

Not really.  Just a bit until he recouped his energy.

 

At 19yrs old, he really wasn't expected to be a top pairing dman in a men's league.

 

It took him some time to adjust to playing on the top pairing, but he improved long before the playoffs.  By the time the POs rolled around, he was the best dman on the team.

 

Salo just recently stated that Olli was NHL ready and fully expect him to make the team this coming season.

 

His condition was poor when he was at training camp last season, for sure.  Like other Canuck rookies, he put on the wrong kind of weight, which carried over to Finland.  He was a jr player before Liiga, so he was not a pro.

 

WTF is this?  Video addiction?

 

Recent updates on the surgery have been very positive.  I fully expect him to be ready and steady at training camp.  The Nucks are overloaded with dmen, so he may have to start out in Utica for a bit.

There is not one D-man on this roster that he shouldn’t be able to takes spot if he is really ready(I feel we don’t have anyone besides Tanev that is really a have to be here D-man... maybe Gudbranson for size and physicality). Del zotto, Edler, Stetcher, Hutton, Biega and Puliot are not irreplaceable at this point.

 

 Secondly I hope what you heard Salo say is right because last training camp he looked absolutely awful even at the prospects tournament. I remember them saying he was 2-3 more years off after such a dismal showing. 

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16 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

You are basically talking about Serg, Chychurn who were mature physically, so ready for the NHL and McAvoy who was an early surprise.  The other dmen in the 1st round, not so much.

No, I'm talking about every single one of the top-12, eleven of whom have played in the top league in the world.  Juolevi is only playing in the world's 5th best league.  He's literally the only one of the top-12 who hasn't been on an NHL roster yet.  One of only 2 in the top-16. 

 

Quote

Other than the names already mentioned, the other dmen in that draft were mostly playing in Jrs...so no.

Not quite.  Juolevi was the top d-man chosen.  Three of the four chosen after him are already stars in the NHL.  Of the other 5 chosen in the first round, one is in college, three played AHL games last season, and one is in junior.

 

Quote

Not really.  Just a bit until he recouped his energy.

Again, not quite.  After Juolevi was healthy-scratched for 2 games in a row - they dropped him to the 7th spot on D.  Then, he moved up to 6th.  And, again, he was a top-5 pick who had only played 20 or 30 some odd games - and he's getting scratched for being tired (playing against juniors)????  How on Earth do you think he's going to fare playing up to 106 games in the NHL, playing against men?

 

Quote

At 19yrs old, he really wasn't expected to be a top pairing dman in a men's league.

As a 19 year old, no.  As a top-5 draft pick, yes he was.  And, again, he never truly made it back to the top pair.  He played on the top-pair in the playoffs because one of the players who got promoted above him suffered a season-ending injury.

 

Quote

It took him some time to adjust to playing on the top pairing, but he improved long before the playoffs.  By the time the POs rolled around, he was the best dman on the team

Again, he wouldn't have been on the top-pair if it wasn't for injuries in front of him.  Also, that's not true.

 

No one here actually followed Juolevi.  You know how I know this?  Because, he had a tremendous first half - and an abysmal 2nd half - yet, multiple articles in the press got it wrong and said he had a phenomenal 2nd half.  And, that lie has been spread around this board and is being believed because no one here actually followed his games.  Go look up his stats from the second half.  Go look up where he was before the juniors - and then after.  It's night and day.  Yet, because a few articles got it wrong, everyone believes something that isn't true.  He played well in the playoffs.  He played well in the first half of the season.  He played horrendously in the second half.  And, he did not actually improve at all (seeing as the best hockey he played was early in the season). 

 

Quote

Salo just recently stated that Olli was NHL ready and fully expect him to make the team this coming season.

Again, this just isn't true.  Salo said things like (I'm paraphrasing here):  'OJ needs to get stronger' 'He's got his work cut out for him' 'He needs to work hard if he wants to make the NHL' 

 

Go listen to that radio interview Salo gave a couple months ago.  The hosts were trying to get him to say OJ was ready for the big-leagues, and Salo kept dodging the question.  There was another interview a week ago, where he did the same thing.  Salo clearly doesn't think OJ works hard enough for the NHL yet.

 

Quote

His condition was poor when he was at training camp last season, for sure.  Like other Canuck rookies, he put on the wrong kind of weight, which carried over to Finland.  He was a jr player before Liiga, so he was not a pro.

Remeber the last two Canucks you could say the exact same thing about?  Virtanen and McCann.  How did that work out for us?...

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10 hours ago, bloodycanuckleheads said:

Go listen to that radio interview Salo gave a couple months ago.  The hosts were trying to get him to say OJ was ready for the big-leagues, and Salo kept dodging the question.  There was another interview a week ago, where he did the same thing.  Salo clearly doesn't think OJ works hard enough for the NHL yet.

Rick Dhaliwal @DhaliwalSports

Salo on Juolevi, "He had a really good year, he improved in the areas he needed, like in the defensive zone. He had a great playoff, he carried the team after we lost a key defenseman. He took the team on his shoulders, we were really happy with his development." #Canucks

7:04 AM - 23 Apr 2018
 

Salo on how close Juolevi is to the NHL, "His play in his own end will be the biggest hurdle I think for him. He needs a big summer, get in better physical shape, conditioning, stronger and quicker. Lots of work to be done, the next styp is big." #Canucks

 
 

“I think he’s ready,” said Salo, who was an assistant with Juolevi’s Finnish team. “But this is what I said to him: ‘It’s another big jump to make an NHL team. There will be 10 other defencemen battling for those spots.’

“He has to go out there and show what he can do.”

http://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/canucks-top-prospects-no-2-olli-juolevi

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Could OJ make any other NHL roster this year?

Which? 

 

I think the Canucks offer the best opportunity for any Dman prospect to land a NHL job. 

 

If he can’t make the Canucks this year, and stick, I think he then becomes a polarized figure for fans. Good luck to him. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Could OJ make any other NHL roster this year?

Which? 

 

I think the Canucks offer the best opportunity for any Dman prospect to land a NHL job. 

 

If he can’t make the Canucks this year, and stick, I think he then becomes a polarized figure for fans. Good luck to him. 

 

 

 

Seems to me he's already there. :lol:

 

I think he starts in Utica. Which doesn't concern me at all.

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5 hours ago, Baggins said:

Rick Dhaliwal @DhaliwalSports

Salo on Juolevi, "He had a really good year, he improved in the areas he needed, like in the defensive zone. He had a great playoff, he carried the team after we lost a key defenseman. He took the team on his shoulders, we were really happy with his development." #Canucks

7:04 AM - 23 Apr 2018
 

Salo on how close Juolevi is to the NHL, "His play in his own end will be the biggest hurdle I think for him. He needs a big summer, get in better physical shape, conditioning, stronger and quicker. Lots of work to be done, the next styp is big." #Canucks

 
 

“I think he’s ready,” said Salo, who was an assistant with Juolevi’s Finnish team. “But this is what I said to him: ‘It’s another big jump to make an NHL team. There will be 10 other defencemen battling for those spots.’

“He has to go out there and show what he can do.”

http://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/canucks-top-prospects-no-2-olli-juolevi

Those are not ringing endorsements.  Your link even has this quote:

 

Quote

But one Finnish scout for an NHL team insisted “he won’t be a top player” in the world’s best league.

And some other ones that don't make OJ look too good either:

 

Quote

He has a tendency sometimes to look like he’s disinterested...

Quote

He did have some struggles.

Again Salo mentions that OJ doesn't seem to put in the effort and expects things to be handed to him:

 

Quote

It drove home the reality that this isn’t going to be easy in the pros. I think that’s what he had for most of his career. He had more skill and was a better skater coming up.

And, mentions that his conditioning isn't up to snuff:

 

Quote

That’s why his physical conditioning has to get to another level this summer

And implies that he's not in nearly good enough shape:

 

Quote

To play 82 games in the NHL is tough. You have to be in tip-top shape because it’s so taxing.  “If you’re in average shape, or even what you would call good shape, it’s not going to be enough.”

These are not the kinds of things you want to be hearing about the highest draft pick you've had in a generation, 2 years after his draft, while playing in a weak league.

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10 minutes ago, bloodycanuckleheads said:

Those are not ringing endorsements.  Your link even has this quote:

 

And some other ones that don't make OJ look too good either:

 

Again Salo mentions that OJ doesn't seem to put in the effort and expects things to be handed to him:

 

And, mentions that his conditioning isn't up to snuff:

 

And implies that he's not in nearly good enough shape:

 

These are not the kinds of things you want to be hearing about the highest draft pick you've had in a generation, 2 years after his draft, while playing in a weak league.

You need to add some context to the quotes you're using.

 

-No where does Salo mention that OJ doesn't seem to put in the effort and expect things to be handed to him.  He says he has to get used to the fact that he's not easily better than anyone around him (a thing many junior stars have to adjust to).

 

-No where does he say his conditioning isn't up to snuff.  He just says he needs to continue to work on it as it's another step up to the Nhl.

 

-He doesn't imply at all that he's not in good enough shape.

 

Heck, let's just have a look what the article says since you want to twist it to serve your purposes.......

 

Olli Juolevi is close to making an impact with the Vancouver Canucks.

It may just not feel like it.

He has been one of the most polarizing top Canucks prospects in recent memory. Other defencemen in his draft class have already made it, and some in a big way. It has unfairly taken some of the shine off the 20-year-old who is still on track to being a top-pairing difference maker.

But one Finnish scout for an NHL team insisted “he won’t be a top player” in the world’s best league.

Former Vancouver Canucks defenceman Sami Salo sees it differently, however, and few have spent more time with the 20-year-old left-side blue-liner.

“I think he’s ready,” said Salo, who was an assistant with Juolevi’s Finnish team. “But this is what I said to him: ‘It’s another big jump to make an NHL team. There will be 10 other defencemen battling for those spots.’

“He has to go out there and show what he can do.”

The left side of the Canucks’ defence after Alex Edler isn’t exactly a Murderer’s Row. There’s Michael Del Zotto, Ben Hutton and Derrick Pouliot. It’s not crazy to think Juolevi can outplay these guys and earn a roster spot in the fall. To do it, though, Salo said Juolevi will need to focus on body language.

Wait, what?

“He has a tendency sometimes to look like he’s disinterested, even though he’s not,” Salo said. “Body language is very important in the NHL. You can’t have bad body language. He has to show he’s really into the games and wants to be out there.

“He got better this year as the season went on.”

That’s true for every part of his game. Juolevi saved the best part of the season for last. It was his play down the stretch and in the playoffs that left Salo so impressed.

“When the playoffs started, he was our best defenceman,” Salo said. “We lost (Henrik) Tallinder and it was good to see Olli carry the weight of Tallinder. He really picked up the Tallinder weight and was clearly our best defenceman.

“The only thing he didn’t really do was penalty kill. We had older guys in that role and it really worked out well for Olli. He focused on 5-on-5 play and the power play. He was a big part of our power play.”

Salo said Juolevi worked his way up to being the No. 1 point man on their power play.

“He doesn’t have the hardest shot, but he’s good at finding the open lane and getting the pucks through,” Salo said. “I was happy for him. He did have some struggles.”

Salo was referencing the stretch of games following the World Junior Championship. Juolevi skidded through a rough patch, which included multiple games when he was a healthy scratch for his Finnish club.

“It was good for him to get that adversity,” Salo said. “I think it gave him a push.

“It drove home the reality that this isn’t going to be easy in the pros. I think that’s what he had for most of his career. He had more skill and was a better skater coming up.”

Salo suggested Juolevi’s dip in play was in part because of the number of games he played for the country’s senior team in a couple of tournaments and his time with Turku.

“That’s why his physical conditioning has to get to another level this summer,” said Salo, stressing a point he has made when talking about Juolevi for a year now.

Does Juolevi understand what he needs to do in this area?

“He should,” Salo said. “I know his agent as well and we’ve been in contact and talked about this. To play 82 games in the NHL is tough. You have to be in tip-top shape because it’s so taxing.

“If you’re in average shape, or even what you would call good shape, it’s not going to be enough.”

Salo said Juolevi reminds him of Kimmo Timonen, a Finnish legend who played 16 years in the NHL.

“With the way he skates and sees the ice, I do see a little Timonen in him,” Salo said. “He’s in control in every situation, even if he’s under pressure. He’s just calm with the puck.

“He can compete with professionals. It wasn’t easy this year from the start. There was a lot of things he had to get used to.

“Once he focused on taking charge, it became a lot easier for him. He can make really good plays under pressure. He can make plays a lot of defencemen can’t make.”

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