Louie Eriksson and Jake Virtanen and Jim Benning

[Borvat]

2 hours ago, Canuckster86 said:

So we went through that once with the Twins....does he make the same mistake again by giving a retirement contract with ntc or nmc to Edler??? If he buckles and gives Edler a new deal has our GM really learned from the past?

 

We have 2 top 4 LHD going in to next year, yes Hughes is young but he will be a top 4 guy for us. Also have our high draft pick OJ who should be coming to camp ready to compete for an NHL spot or at worst be a call up during the year.

 

I hope JB does little in the UFA market, if anything short 1 or 2 yr year deals on players with no NTC so they can be flipped for assets at the TDL.

I really don't think  Edler is the long term answer and agree a short term deal is best - if at all.  My comment was more what he needed to deal with - Sedins - not that I agreed how with how it was executed.  The reason for the UFA's needed now - 1 top six winger, preferably top line winger and 1 top pairing D is that in my opinion the Canucks could use both even if the current prospects with potential pan out. 

 

Other than Hughes "potentially" who is currently in the system that is highly likely to be a top pairing D in the next number of years?

 

Anyone highly likely to be a legit top six winger in the next number of years?

 

I don't see any certainty for those needed players only hopefuls.  Maybe I missed them.    

 

My fear is Benning will be desperate with only a year left on his contract plus there is no continuity or succession plan as they have no President or experienced AGM.  Kinda scary. 

 

Benning is a decent scout but I am not confident in his ability to run a successful organization from top to bottom.  I see some cracks. I call them CrAqualini's.

Edited just now by Borvatl

Edited April 22, 2019 by Borvat

[Tomatoes11]

4 hours ago, Canuckster86 said:

So we went through that once with the Twins....does he make the same mistake again by giving a retirement contract with ntc or nmc to Edler??? If he buckles and gives Edler a new deal has our GM really learned from the past?

 

We have 2 top 4 LHD going in to next year, yes Hughes is young but he will be a top 4 guy for us. Also have our high draft pick OJ who should be coming to camp ready to compete for an NHL spot or at worst be a call up during the year.

 

I hope JB does little in the UFA market, if anything short 1 or 2 yr year deals on players with no NTC so they can be flipped for assets at the TDL.

Benning flips no one. He hangs on to useless bottom 6 assets  or borderline top

 6 assets until they are worth nothing. All this because of some misguided notion, that he and most of the cdc fan base shares, that these kids are mentally weak as hell and need some kind of sheltering. That’s the whole benning apologist spiel to absolve benning for the following.

 

- pissing away high 2nds and 3rds or prospects for useless bottom 6 grinders.

 

- hanging on to assets too long until they are untradeable.

 

- Edmonton and buffalo being the only examples they give that support going this route while every other successful team doesn’t use this model of rebuilding and for good reason.

 

Fact is, we should have traded Edler before his NTC kicked in and we should have traded Tanev before he got injured. And we should have traded Sutter when he was worth a lot more. And many many more. JV too needs to go before his worth is completely gone.

 

JB isn’t going to flip anything except maybe another young prospect like Dahlen or a 2nd round pick. The guys a horrible gm.

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Tomatoes11

[189lb enforcers?]

52 minutes ago, Borvat said:

Benning is a decent scout but I am not confident in his ability to run a successful organization from top to bottom. 

 

I see some cracks. I call them CrAqualini's.

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, Tomatoes11 said:

The guys a horrible gm

He is far from horrible.

If you refrain from using such extremes like that, you’ll have more success in your delivery of your message here, IMO.   

 

I agree with most of the rest of your perceptions though, which was once seen as pure blasphemy on these boards not too long ago. Now, it’s easier to inject these comments and critiques into discussions without the heard rushing in to stomp-out any dissent here. 

 

Even the Accidental/Stealth Tank concept can now be argued here based on the predictably of the Tank-worthy goalie tandem and D-core that Benning went with for several seasons now, combined with other IR mainstays in key roles like Sutter’s.

-Nobody ices that roster seriously expecting to have a “competitive” team. 

 

Had EP and Marky not been in the discussion for the Hart this season, this would have been a not-so-stealthy Tank job/Plan, delivered by a roster *expected to produce another top pick, which I am perfectly fine with, in principle (Tanktards).

 

JB’s plans seem to have a serious ring of silver linings to them.

 

-When he actually wanted his roster to compete, he gets a top pick.

-When he scales back and let’s kids and projects play, he wins, but still gets a decent pick. 

 

So, I agree with you and others though that at some point, the team will need a manager who executes and receives the intended results. I do not believe JB will be that guy for this franchise. 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by 189lb enforcers?

[oldnews]

11 hours ago, Horvat is a Boss said:

 

You should be talking to Babcock and Dubas if you don't like the way they do things. 

 

Lindholm played mainly on the wing on the 4th line. Gauthier was their 4C for most of the year. So Lindholm was actually a winger winning over 50% of his draws. 

 

Tavares probably takes so many defensive zone draws because he plays with two of the most defensively responsible wingers on the team (at least according to Babcock). It's likely more important to Babcock that Hyman and Marner are out there in those situations than Tavares. If you don't like that it's fine. 

Lindholm took slightly more draws / game than Gauthier - so you should probably look at facts like that before making claims like he was a winger - and also played 3 minutes more/game, and 9 times the pk ice time than Gauthier, who is playing less than 7 minutes a game in the playoffs.

 

I should be talking to Babcock and Dubas if I don't like things?   I guess these boards were designed for Leaf-blowing only.

 

Tavares probably takes so many dzone draws - because the Leafs don't have a 4th line Babcock can trust.   Feel free to forward that to Dubas' junkmail if you see fit.

 

Btw - this is precisely why I cut out the part of the conversation I thought was worthwhile - while moving on from this tail-chasing cycle.

Edited April 22, 2019 by oldnews

[Tomatoes11]

Sutter for Kadri straight up? Yes kadri is worth way more but we can use the Sutter wont get suspended when you need him angle.

[TheRick]

2 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Sutter for Kadri straight up? Yes kadri is worth way more but we can use the Sutter wont get suspended when you need him angle.

Them trade Kadri to Boston and have him haunt the Leafs!

[Rob_Zepp]

On 4/16/2019 at 2:51 AM, CaptainLinden16 said:

I think the majority of Jim Benning hate or dim Jim thoughts are primarily around these two moves.  Ollie Joulevi over Tkachuk is by now definitely a miss, but that's like saying why didn't the team draft Barazal or Pastarnak or whatever.  The smaller dealers are absurdities.  OMG he added an extra 6th round pick to a trade that has a 3% chance of being a 3rd line hockey player for 400 games.  

 

So to Louie, in order to be angry about this deal you have be in favor of choosing an alternative.  There were a lot of solid forwards available during free agency that year.  Ladd, Okoposo, Nielsen, Backes and Lucic.  I am probably forgetting someone else.  

 

Andrew Ladd 177 games and 71 pts 15 min TOI, missed 69 games in 3 years .40 pts per game

7 years at 5.5 million

 

David Backes 201 games 91 pts 15min TOI, missed 43 games in 3 years .45 pts per game

5 years at 6 million 

 

Frans Nielsen 203 games 109 pts 16min TOI missed 16 games in 3 years .53 pts per game

6 years at 5.25 million 

 

Louie Eriksson 196 games 76 pts 16min TOI missed 48 games in 3 years .38pts per game

6 years at 6 million

 

Milan Lucic 243 games 104 pts 15min TOI missed 3 games in 3 years .42pts per game

6 years at 6 million

 

Kyle Okposo 219 games 118 pts 16min TOI missed 27 games in 3 years .53pts per game

7 years at 6 million 

 

I wanted Okposo.  I am pretty sure he didn't want to come here.  "Little Things Louie" has the best defensive game by far out of all of these forwards.  I just want to ask which of these deals actually look good to you?  Which contract would you take on willingly? 

 

I think Louie has always looked excellent with Horvat.  I think he will be very solid next year if he gets the chance.

 

So then the answer in hindsight, you should not have signed anyone.  There would've been a riot had Jim passed with cap space and so many solid players available.   People just love to complain.  Signing a player didn't cost an asset, ITS NOT YOUR MONEY (so who cares about the actual dollars), didn't create a cap crunch, and no Brendan Gaunce and Niklas Jensen or Hunter Shinkaruk or Jonathan Dahlen didn't miss out on blooming into a cant miss 1st line hockey player because HE STOLE their minutes.     

 

Now onto Jake.  The argument is Ehlers or Nylander would've been a better choice.  There were two options and a lot of debate, so this one was Jim going with his gut rather than best player available.

 

Ehlers 7 years at 6 million

36 playoff games 00000 goals and 14 assists

 

Nylander 7 years at 7 million

15 playoff games  3 goals and 7 assists 

 

They are both 20 goal 40 assist players in the regular season on absolutely stacked teams with elite line mates.  They are both tissue paper soft.

 

The question is what are they worth in a trade right now with those contracts and their playoff numbers?  If both were free agents, would you dedicate 7 and 6 million worth of cap for 7 years?  

 

Jake may not be a playoff performer either.  He may not be a 40 point player next year.  He may not become Raffi Torres, BUT if he is then I would prefer that 100% over either.  The main point is that the alternatives aren't worth much.

 

It's about perspective.  It's not about the decision by itself.  It is about the alternative choices that could have been made.  ECON 101 opportunity cost.  The lost opportunity in this case isn't worth complaining about.

Many posters on CDC (and seemingly all on other boards) treat Vancouver's management as if they need to be perfect in hindsight on every single move.   If you objectively compare all NHL management teams over same period of time Benning has been in Vancouver, you will find such a comparison surprisingly putting Benning and his team in the upper 1/2 easily and more into the upper 1/4 in terms of overall prospect pool development, legitimate NHL players drafted and emerged and in terms of trading history.    

Being an NHL management team isn't about winning every move in isolation, it is about a body of work.    Given the fact Vancouver now has a team that is one of the younger in the NHL (even with Beagle, LE and others they averaged more than a year under the NHL average for the past season) and has more younger players yet to meet their peak than have met it, they are a team heading in the right direction and with the right type of players.

 

You will always find trolls on a board like this but you will also find people that only think about their own team and don't understand that there are 30 other teams wanting to improve all at the same time with the same overall global pool of talent.    

[spur1]

On 4/22/2019 at 10:01 AM, Tomatoes11 said:

Benning flips no one. He hangs on to useless bottom 6 assets  or borderline top

 6 assets until they are worth nothing. All this because of some misguided notion, that he and most of the cdc fan base shares, that these kids are mentally weak as hell and need some kind of sheltering. That’s the whole benning apologist spiel to absolve benning for the following.

 

- pissing away high 2nds and 3rds or prospects for useless bottom 6 grinders.

 

- hanging on to assets too long until they are untradeable.

 

- Edmonton and buffalo being the only examples they give that support going this route while every other successful team doesn’t use this model of rebuilding and for good reason.

 

Fact is, we should have traded Edler before his NTC kicked in and we should have traded Tanev before he got injured. And we should have traded Sutter when he was worth a lot more. And many many more. JV too needs to go before his worth is completely gone.

 

JB isn’t going to flip anything except maybe another young prospect like Dahlen or a 2nd round pick. The guys a horrible gm.

 

 

 

Should have could have would have. 

Lets see...Edlers NMC clause kicked in when he signed a cap friendly contract. 

Should have traded Tanev before he got injured....his crystal ball was cloudy that week. 

Should have traded Sutter while he was worth more...see crystal ball above. 

Traded away picks for bottom 6 useless grinders ...Yup Bear is a bottom 6 useless grinder. 

Benning flips no one...tell that to Gudbranson. 

JV’s value is still rising...but trade him. 

Come back when you are fresh not rotten. 

Extend Benning. 

[erkayloomeh]

On 4/15/2019 at 11:21 AM, Alflives said:

I agree with both of you.  I don't want Ehlers or Nylander for their cost, and softy play.  I don't like JB's philosophy of filling gaps (age and talent) with so many middling UFA's either.  We certainly need a sprinkling of support for our young guys to develop to their best potential, but (IMO) JB has accumulated too many of such guys.  

Jake is not Ehlers or Nylander, but he still needs to use his size to be more impactful physically more often.  

Way back when we drafted JV I went and watched as many videos of him as I could find and the player he reminded me of the most was kesler.  Remember always looking for that winger to play with kesler year in and year out. ??   We will do the same thing with Jake because he doesn't play well with others just like kesler didn't. He ended up doing things himself with sheer will. 

Once our coaches figure out how to deploy JV and Jake learns to play to his strengths I believe we will have a player on our hands. 

If we keep trying put a square peg in a round hole we will be frustrated with Jake. 

We don't know what coaches are telling Jake to do. This is the problem I have with assessing JV. 

Any player you say has a high hockey I Q will be a player who uses his teammates well and makes those around him better. That's not JV. 

It wasn't kesler either 

Jake virtanen will dominate once himself and/ or coaches figure out how to use him properly. 

All of athletic abilities are there. They just need to be used properly.  If not he will eventually be traded and this will be realized by another team. 

[wai_lai416]

meh if benning would have taken tkachuk over juolevi and ehler or whomever over jake.. our top 6 would be fine and just need to draft a few more Dman.. but as it stands we have holes in our top 6 and holes in our top 4 with Juolevi being an unknown being injured so much since drafted

[iceman64]

On 4/15/2019 at 12:18 PM, CaptainLinden16 said:

I think Jake still has a chance to be Raffi Torres.  Raffi was a high pick who had raw tools and was fierce hitter.  I would take one Raffi over 5 Ehlers or Nylanders in the playoffs.

A young raffi torres, then turned more consistant as those types need more time for maturity than average but once it's there, it pays off but it's not like Jake is going anywhere since benning and green know it's a process that's almost done in him. He just needs to keep it up and he still could make it onto the 3rd line with a 2nd line upside if our new player (via trade or ufa) for Bo whoever that may be gets injured. Anyway Raffi in his prime was a train and Jake will get there too, just a matter of time. Plus being in a room full of guys like petey, brock, and Bo especially but there's more but seems to be the competitive bar is moving up a notch or 2 so that's a far cry from lil depth and the lil depth not being very good with the odd exception but at least we're heading in the right direct direction and so is Jake... not worried about it, he'll be fine. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by iceman64

[Pickly]

2 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

A young raffi torres, then turned more consistant as those types need more time for maturity than average but once it's there, it pays off but it's not like Jake is going anywhere since benning and green know it's a process that's almost done in him. He just needs to keep it up and he still could make it onto the 3rd line with a 2nd line upside if our new player (via trade or ufa) for Bo whoever that may be gets injured. Anyway Raffi in his prime was a train and Jake will get there too, just a matter of time. Plus being in a room full of guys like petey, brock, and Bo especially but there's more but seems to be the competitive bar is moving up a notch or 2 so that's a far cry from lil depth and the lil depth not being very good with the odd exception but at least we're heading in the right direct direction 

Raffi played with killer instinct and had a non-stop motor where Jake throws a big hit once every 5 games now and regularly takes games off. He just looks disinterested half the time. 

[Tomatoes11]

Where are people seeing all this JV potential from? From every game I have seen him play he is a total lost cause and exact same trajectory as Pyatt and Bernier. Possible even less hockey iq guys than those guys possess.

 

Can someone please explain to me what they are seeing? He has been crap plain and simple. Can’t even handle hard passes like an NHLer and stops moving his feet at the wrong times and thus hasn’t changed since his first NHL game. 

 

So so can I please get a break down of what he is actually good at besides skating in a straight line as fast and hard as he can,  trying to do much, and either turning the puck over or destroying a play one of the D and Ep spent so much work constructing. 

 

The guy is horrible and should be traded instantly based on the games I have seen him play. And yes it’s plenty of games. 

 

 

[iceman64]

1 hour ago, Pickly said:

Raffi played with killer instinct and had a non-stop motor where Jake throws a big hit once every 5 games now and regularly takes games off. He just looks disinterested half the time. 

That's why he needs pushing and that's greens job...

[Pickly]

7 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

That's why he needs pushing and that's greens job...

No, he’s not a 19 year old rookie anymore he’s 22 going on 23 and going into his 5th year of pro hockey, most of which has been under Travis Green. I think Green has done his part in trying to get through to Jake in Utica and in Vancouver and now the onus is on him now to decide what he wants his career to become. Problem is that the Canucks have a lot of holes to fill and few trade chips and Jake makes perfect sense to be dealt this offseason. 

[Googlie]

1 hour ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Where are people seeing all this JV potential from? From every game I have seen him play he is a total lost cause and exact same trajectory as Pyatt and Bernier. Possible even less hockey iq guys than those guys possess.

 

Can someone please explain to me what they are seeing? He has been crap plain and simple. Can’t even handle hard passes like an NHLer and stops moving his feet at the wrong times and thus hasn’t changed since his first NHL game. 

 

So so can I please get a break down of what he is actually good at besides skating in a straight line as fast and hard as he can,  trying to do much, and either turning the puck over or destroying a play one of the D and Ep spent so much work constructing. 

 

The guy is horrible and should be traded instantly based on the games I have seen him play. And yes it’s plenty of games. 

 

 

•  

Among forwards.....

 

1st in takeaways 

2nd in hits (behind Motte)

5th in blocked shots (Bo, Motte, Petey and Roussel ahead of him)

3rd in shots on goal (Bo and BB)

4th in goals (Petey,  Bo and BB)

 

but ... 5th worst in giveaways (but worse than Jake were, in order, Petey, Bo, Goldy and BB, so he was in good company)

 

I'd say that's quite the resume 

[spur1]

30 minutes ago, Googlie said:

Among forwards.....

 

1st in takeaways 

2nd in hits (behind Motte)

5th in blocked shots (Bo, Motte, Petey and Roussel ahead of him)

3rd in shots on goal (Bo and BB)

4th in goals (Petey,  Bo and BB)

 

but ... 5th worst in giveaways (but worse than Jake were, in order, Petey, Bo, Goldy and BB, so he was in good company)

 

I'd say that's quite the resume 

Yup....we better trade him...he is a bum. 

The trade JV bunch are the same clowns clamouring for firing JB. 

[Tomatoes11]

57 minutes ago, Googlie said:

Among forwards.....

 

1st in takeaways 

2nd in hits (behind Motte)

5th in blocked shots (Bo, Motte, Petey and Roussel ahead of him)

3rd in shots on goal (Bo and BB)

4th in goals (Petey,  Bo and BB)

 

but ... 5th worst in giveaways (but worse than Jake were, in order, Petey, Bo, Goldy and BB, so he was in good company)

 

I'd say that's quite the resume 

Besides the 1st in takeaways, not a very impressive resume at all vs the harm he does.

[iceman64]

24 minutes ago, spur1 said:

Yup....we better trade him...he is a bum. 

The trade JV bunch are the same clowns clamouring for firing JB. 

Oh points, wait his point production went up too... DEFINATELY better trade him, throw all that developing that's finally almost done for not very much. Yeah that'd be helpful...