Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[GB5]

Yea, he'll go to Utica. He'd be a good fit on their third line.

It would be great to watch him go deep into the playoffs with the Comets. This would be a perfect opportunity to position himself for a shot with the big team next year.

[elvis15]

Neither elite skill nor character has ever been a question for Jake. Quite the opposite; he's got all the tools. It's his hockey IQ and consistency that has always been debated.

IMO, his shoulder surgery and the lack of a proper training regiment/training camp was a bigger setback than the Canucks anticipated. Or maybe they're more patient than the folks at CDC and aren't worrying (the more likely answer). I think he'll press the reset button in the summer and bounce back next year.

I think we all agree he has NHL plus or even elite level shot and skating, and his frame is certainly NHL-ready physically. Where people are talking about his skill level potentially not being enough is in part the IQ portion but also his ability to do more than just skate down the wing past the defender and snipe one home. There's a lot more to a solid NHL offensive game than that, and if he wants to be more than a bottom 6 player, he'll have to prove he has that capability.

[2SKATES1STICK]

Maybe Mike Milbury

he said 'in the league', not beating little children over the christmas holidays

[Canucks1219]

As far as point production is concerned, Virtanen actually did well with what he was given, averaging just 17 minutes per game, sometimes even playing as low as 13~14 minutes. My own personal questions/concerns about his game surround the issue of consistency, but I've never been too concerned with his actual points per game.

(Following stats courtesy CHL Stats)

Among WHL players that played at least 20 games, Virtanen has the 11th best (estimated) points/60 minutes played at 3.61. To put that into context, the player at 10th is Nic Petan at 3.64 and the player below him at 12th is Nick Merkley at 3.57. Petan averaged 27.5 minutes per game while Merkley averaged 21 minutes. So Virtanen produced points at a similar rate to these top point producers while receiving 4~10 minutes less in ice time.

Among his age group (18 years of age) he has the 6th best points/60 minutes among WHL players with at least 20 games played, only behind Draisaitl, Kirkland, Chartier, Hawryluk, and Bukarts.

[Guest Dasein]

I don't quite agree that it's skill that Jake needs to show, but rather consistency, you don't score 40+ in the WHL as a 17 year old without skill. I don't want to say it was all useage or because of the injury, but it defiantly seems like it was an off year for Jake. Yet he still managed to be PPG and make the world juniors, even as a role player.

I'll reserve judgment for a few years on the kid, and still be pretty stoked to have a local, homegrown talent. Players like Virtanen, McCann, and Horvat are the players that win championships. Its no coincidence they've all played large roles on strong teams. Nylanders, and Ehlers may be fun to watch especially in juniors or in less physical leagues (SHL) but their success rate in the NHL is usually very hit and miss. As are all prospects really, but I like Jakes chances and think he'll be a fan favorite, whether its putting people into benches with a big hit, or people in the seats with a big goal.

You can't just put those three together and say that they are the type of players that win championships when Virtanen's nothing like McCann or Horvat. And what strong team has Virtanen played a large role in?

I can see why everyone says Virtanen is the type of player that win championships - big, strong, fast Canadian talent that can really shoot the puck. But when it's his time to shine, has he? His WHL playoff resume is not very impressive

This is not about Nylander or Ehlers, so I don't know why you're bringing them in. This is about Virtanen having struggled this year and having question marks surrounding him that he hasn't answered yet. I completely agree with you that he is still young and still has a chance to silence the critics. But there's no denying that one of the question marks surrounding Jake is skill - or maybe I should have worded it better since everyone else pointed it out - I meant hockey IQ and the ability to play at a high level to carry a team's offense (like the aforementioned players like Duclair and Domi)

A very important elite trait that isn't about hands, shot, playmaking, etc. is consistency. Shift-to-shift/game-to-game consistency, and if we're talking "elite" then it needs to go beyond just "effort" and into "production" too.

Virtanen has game-breaking speed, slick hands, a dynamic shot, and okay playmaking ability but he can't seem to put it together for extended periods to be a truly dominant force. He has the foundations for an elite player but he's missing arguably the most important trait of being able to be a key factor game-in, game out.

His quality of teammates (as the stats people would say) isn't great, as is his ice time, but for a player that is supposed to be as good as people on here claim, someone with his skills and size (especially relative to his peers) should provide better consistency.

And that's really the point that people are worried about - although external circumstances factor in (linemate quality, ice time, shoulder surgery, etc), Jake should still show more than he is right now

Also, for a guy that has all the tools, I would hope that he could elevate the play of his linemates to another level (but you acknowledge that with the bolded) and earn more ice time (can you blame the coach for the minutes Jake gets when he doesn't know which one is going to show up on any given night?)

Neither elite skill nor character has ever been a question for Jake. Quite the opposite; he's got all the tools. It's his hockey IQ and consistency that has always been debated.

Yeah I meant hockey IQ when I said skills. My mistake - should have been clearer

[Pimp C]

For sure - you don't need a team full of elite players to be an elite team, but a roster with players that play their role well so that they play together as an elite team

You're also right in that a lot can change in a year, but those examples are off IMO

Duclair scored 50 goals a year ago in the Q and Domi had 93 points - a lot of people were high on both guys even a year ago. There were question marks, but the issue surround these two were different from Virtanen in that their skills was never in question - these guys could flat out play. Rather, the question following them were one of character, and Duclair and Domi overcame that (especially Domi, who became London's captain)

The question that follows Virtanen at the moment is different since it's actually about his skill level - people question whether he has that elite skill. Like you say, Virtanen could break out next season and prove everyone wrong, but for Jake, he actually has to prove that he can be elite, unlike Duclair and Domi who had to answer questions about their character

Virtanen is not going to be an elite player he will be a physical 45-60 point player with blazing speed. That is a very valuable player.

[Guest Dasein]

Virtanen is not going to be an elite player he will be a physical 45-60 point player with blazing speed. That is a very valuable player.

Never said that type of player isn't valuable

[Derp...]

I am in the let Jake go to Utica boat as well.

[Guest Dasein]

As far as point production is concerned, Virtanen actually did well with what he was given, averaging just 17 minutes per game, sometimes even playing as low as 13~14 minutes. My own personal questions/concerns about his game surround the issue of consistency, but I've never been too concerned with his actual points per game.

(Following stats courtesy CHL Stats)

Among WHL players that played at least 20 games, Virtanen has the 11th best (estimated) points/60 minutes played at 3.61. To put that into context, the player at 10th is Nic Petan at 3.64 and the player below him at 12th is Nick Merkley at 3.57. Petan averaged 27.5 minutes per game while Merkley averaged 21 minutes. So Virtanen produced points at a similar rate to these top point producers while receiving 4~10 minutes less in ice time.

Among his age group (18 years of age) he has the 6th best points/60 minutes among WHL players with at least 20 games played, only behind Draisaitl, Kirkland, Chartier, Hawryluk, and Bukarts.

IMO, the numbers you compare actually only show how amazing Nic Petan is in the WHL, rather than show how impressive Jake's production has been considering his minutes

For example, Brad Richardson (2.10) has a better P/60 than Henrik Sedin (2.00) - does that mean Richardson would outproduce Henrik if he played Hank's minutes? Against the competition that Hank faces? Hell no - Richardson's P/60 would drop like a rock if he played Hank's minutes because he wouldn't be able to score at that clip with more minutes against tougher competition

Another example - just compare P/60 of Henrik playing monster minutes under Tortorella (1.80) vs Henrik playing managed minutes under Desjardins (2.00) - same player, higher P/60 with less minutes (stats from BehindTheNet)

Now, I'm not saying that Jake is like Richardson and Petan is like Henrik. Jake obviously has skills that make him an offensive threat every night, but he doesn't have the consistency to be a threat every night (like Petan and Henrik)

It's nice that Jake has a great P/60, but I think his lower TOI actually covers up the inconsistencies in his game. The names you find Jake among are the guys that bring it every night and are relied on for offence every night, and we know Jake's struggles with consistency - if Jake were to actually play the minutes that those guys play, I would bet that his name would not be found among theirs and be lower in the list

Sidenote - Bukarts and Draisaitl are 1995s (turned 19 last calendar year), so I guess Jake would be 4th among 1996s WHLers (if that means much at all)

Man, I sound awfully negative in my last few posts in this thread... I'm just concerned that our highest pick since the twins seems to have had an off-year for whatever reason. I wanna end it on a positive note that I still believe in Jake and am glad we have a prospect with the tools that he has. Once he goes to Utica when Calgary's season is over (I'd actually prefer that they win tomorrow and keep going in the WHL playoffs because I think it's important for him to experience some team success there), I'm hoping that Green should be able to diagnose what went wrong in Calgary for Jake

Edited April 6, 2015 by Dasein

[N4ZZY]

would be interested to see what jake can do down in utica.

[Pimp C]

I am in the let Jake go to Utica boat as well.

whats the point they're not going to play him.

[Canucks1219]

IMO, the numbers you compare actually only show how amazing Nic Petan is in the WHL, rather than show how impressive Jake's production has been considering his minutes

For example, Brad Richardson (2.10) has a better P/60 than Henrik Sedin (2.00) - does that mean Richardson would outproduce Henrik if he played Hank's minutes? Against the competition that Hank faces? Hell no - Richardson's P/60 would drop like a rock if he played Hank's minutes because he wouldn't be able to score at that clip with more minutes against tougher competition

Another example - just compare P/60 of Henrik playing monster minutes under Tortorella (1.80) vs Henrik playing managed minutes under Desjardins (2.00) - same player, higher P/60 with less minutes (stats from BehindTheNet)

Now, I'm not saying that Jake is like Richardson and Petan is like Henrik. Jake obviously has skills that make him an offensive threat every night, but he doesn't have the consistency to be a threat every night (like Petan and Henrik)

It's nice that Jake has a great P/60, but I think his lower TOI actually covers up the inconsistencies in his game. The names you find Jake among are the guys that bring it every night and are relied on for offence every night, and we know Jake's struggles with consistency - if Jake were to actually play the minutes that those guys play, I would bet that his name would not be found among theirs and be lower in the list

Sidenote - Bukarts and Draisaitl are 1995s (turned 19 last calendar year), so I guess Jake would be 4th among 1996s WHLers (if that means much at all)

Man, I sound awfully negative in my last few posts in this thread... I'm just concerned that our highest pick since the twins seems to have had an off-year for whatever reason. I wanna end it on a positive note that I still believe in Jake and am glad we have a prospect with the tools that he has. Once he goes to Utica when Calgary's season is over (I'd actually prefer that they win tomorrow and keep going in the WHL playoffs because I think it's important for him to experience some team success there), I'm hoping that Green should be able to diagnose what went wrong in Calgary for Jake

You're right, though my point was not to suggest that Virtanen would out-produce Petan or Merkley. My point was more that over a pretty good sample size (17 minutes over 52 games) his production was in the same realm as other top performers around the league, and that he did well given his circumstances. I don't disagree that his p/60 would fall with more ice time (especially Petan-level minutes) but it's still a pretty good clip over a pretty reasonable amount of time.

Like I've said over the past couple pages, my concern with Virtanen hasn't been about his marginally improved 1.04 PPG this year, but his game-to-game consistency.

[73 Percent]

whats the point they're not going to play him.

Yeah i dont see him getting much ice if any in utica.

[WonderTwinPowers]

You're right, though my point was not to suggest that Virtanen would out-produce Petan or Merkley. My point was more that over a pretty good sample size (17 minutes over 52 games) his production was in the same realm as other top performers around the league, and that he did well given his circumstances. I don't disagree that his p/60 would fall with more ice time (especially Petan-level minutes) but it's still a pretty good clip over a pretty reasonable amount of time.

Like I've said over the past couple pages, my concern with Virtanen hasn't been about his marginally improved 1.04 PPG this year, but his game-to-game consistency.

I agree with you consistency is his key issue, as it is for a lot of "power forward" type players early in their careers. I don't believe its his hockey IQ that's holding him back, while its not his strongest asset compared to his physical attributes. His assist rate was up this season, and having to play in a few different roles on different lines, and playing those roles still rather effectively has probably helped him understand the game better. Quality coaching, and quality teammates that enjoy teaching younger players will really benefit Jake in the long run hopefully Green can work with him this season, and some of the vets can help him in camp. I'm very excited to see what he'll do next year with a larger role, and more responsibility. Add to that a full off season of training the ceiling is still high for him. Edited April 6, 2015 by WonderTwinPowers

[MJDDawg]

I'm not worried about points at all with Jake.

He's coming off a major surgery in the offseason, and we all have first hand experience (with Kesler as one example) with what the season after those types of surgeries can look like.

Just a general observation though, but from what little time I've seen him play in Calgary, I'm a bit concerned about not only his consistency, but his shift to shift intensity. Too many times I've seen him back away from mucking it up in the corners or sidewall to wait for the a pass or for the puck to come loose. I'm hoping that's simply coaching that's keeping him up high to protect the d-men, similar to his team Canada role. If not, he needs to up the intensity and get more involved shift to shift, otherwise he's not going to be in our lineup anytime soon.

[Boudrias]

Why are fans assuming Virtanen would get ice time in Utica? Utica is in Calder CUP play. I doubt a young player like Virtanen would get any TOI. I doubt he would even go to Utica. Send him home to Van and have him skate with the Canucks so that he can get a feel for pro hockey by practicing and working out there.

[Guest Dasein]

You're right, though my point was not to suggest that Virtanen would out-produce Petan or Merkley. My point was more that over a pretty good sample size (17 minutes over 52 games) his production was in the same realm as other top performers around the league, and that he did well given his circumstances. I don't disagree that his p/60 would fall with more ice time (especially Petan-level minutes) but it's still a pretty good clip over a pretty reasonable amount of time.

Like I've said over the past couple pages, my concern with Virtanen hasn't been about his marginally improved 1.04 PPG this year, but his game-to-game consistency.

Right. And my point was not to suggest that you were saying that he'd outproduce Petan or Merkley, but that he would not be in the same realm as other top performers around the league if he played top performer minutes like the others (just bringing another point of view in interpreting those numbers)

As you point out, consistency is what you are concerned about (pretty much everyone in this thread, for that matter), and it may have been what the Hitmen staff were concerned about as well - one simply could not rely on Virtanen to be the offensive engine of the team game in and game out this season.

It makes me wonder whether it really is the case that Jake "did well given his circumstances," or "his circumstances" (not playing top performer minutes with top linemates) were brought on as a result of his inconsistent play and the coach not being able to trust Jake to bring it every night because he just didn't know which Jake was going to show on any given night

I agree with you consistency is his key issue, as it is for a lot of "power forward" type players early in their careers. I don't believe its his hockey IQ that's holding him back, while its not his strongest asset compared to his physical attributes. His assist rate was up this season, and having to play in a few different roles on different lines, and playing those roles still rather effectively has probably helped him understand the game better. Quality coaching, and quality teammates that enjoy teaching younger players will really benefit Jake in the long run hopefully Green can work with him this season, and some of the vets can help him in camp. I'm very excited to see what he'll do next year with a larger role, and more responsibility. Add to that a full off season of training the ceiling is still high for him.

Maybe that's one of the things he needs to develop more to be more consistent. Just as physical attributes can be developed to a certain extent (Johnny Gaudreau can bulk up a bit more, but he'll never be strong like Jake Virtanen on the ice - there's a physical limit there), so can hockey IQ to a certain extent (Jake can smarten up a bit more, but he'll never be as smart as Johnny Gaudreau on the ice - there's a limit here as well)

Jake's assist rate going up doesn't mean anything unless you've watched the games and can tell me he was setting up teammates with beauty passes - all it could mean is that goalies were making more saves on Jake's first shot and teammates capitalized on the rebounds, for example

I'm excited too for Jake to take the next step in the following season that I think many were hoping he would this year, and become a dominant player in the W

[Jiggs50]

whats the point they're not going to play him.

JB and TL would make sure he's playing.

[DeltaSwede]

I'm not worried about points at all with Jake.

He's coming off a major surgery in the offseason, and we all have first hand experience (with Kesler as one example) with what the season after those types of surgeries can look like.

Just a general observation though, but from what little time I've seen him play in Calgary, I'm a bit concerned about not only his consistency, but his shift to shift intensity. Too many times I've seen him back away from mucking it up in the corners or sidewall to wait for the a pass or for the puck to come loose. I'm hoping that's simply coaching that's keeping him up high to protect the d-men, similar to his team Canada role. If not, he needs to up the intensity and get more involved shift to shift, otherwise he's not going to be in our lineup anytime soon.

I agree with you

I have the same concerns but I am also confident that those concerns will dissapear in due time. He is a bit rawer than other players picked around him in the draft but his ceiling is underestimated I think. He has the tools and talent to become a 30-50 goal scorer but whether or not he will get there is the question. I believe he can become that player but he will need time and patience.

[87Crosby]

Is game 7 going to be on tv?