Sven Baertschi | LW

[Borvat]

20 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

I get the concern, but the panic about this is so over the top. 

Well brain injuries are sorta a big deal.  My daughter was in a car accident 5 years ago and is still suffering from post concussion syndrome.

 

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/ben-kuzma-sven-baertschi-seeks-concussion-clarity-from-specialist-in-prolonged-recovery

 

https://vancouversun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/sven-baertschi-diagnosed-with-post-concussion-syndrome/wcm/21fe600e-7fb5-4ce8-b3a3-49f09b601b97

Edited March 18, 2019 by Borvat

[komodo0921]

Is it unreasonable to shut Baer down for the season?

I'd rather see him back to 100% in a fresh season than risking another injury that could continue into next season.

It's not like we're playing for anything other than for pride anyway.

[canuck73_3]

3 hours ago, Borvat said:

Well brain injuries are sorta a big deal.  My daughter was in a car accident 5 years ago and is still suffering from post concussion syndrome.

 

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/ben-kuzma-sven-baertschi-seeks-concussion-clarity-from-specialist-in-prolonged-recovery

 

https://vancouversun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/sven-baertschi-diagnosed-with-post-concussion-syndrome/wcm/21fe600e-7fb5-4ce8-b3a3-49f09b601b97

I understand that, I've had them myself. But at the end of the day if he is both cleared and wants to come back that is his decision imo. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by canuck73_3

[ilduce39]

I kind of agree that Sven should just shut it down for the season and come back next year.  

 

IMO he’s our best forward after Bo/Brock/Elias and we could really use him as healthy as can be next year.  

 

That said, it’s up to him and the medical staff.  Would go a long way for him getting a few games before the offseason just for his confidence. 

[JayDangles]

1 hour ago, ilduce39 said:

I kind of agree that Sven should just shut it down for the season and come back next year.  

 

IMO he’s our best forward after Bo/Brock/Elias and we could really use him as healthy as can be next year.  

 

That said, it’s up to him and the medical staff.  Would go a long way for him getting a few games before the offseason just for his confidence. 

There's no such thing as "healthy" after a concussion, or multiple concussions. Waiting 6 months does not give even a slightly better chance that he is more or less healed. I agree, better to play him now (if doctors are giving thumbs up). Then we know what we have, if he relapses, then he wont be on the roster next year and he'll be enjoying early retirement. I'd rather know that now, before we pencil him in for next season and find out in November his career is over.

 

[Borvat]

6 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

I understand that, I've had them myself. But at the end of the day if he is both cleared and wants to come back that is his decision imo. 

What pro athlete wouldn't.  I'm saying it may not be the best decision long term.  Crosby shut it down for a prolonged period when his symptoms recurred.  He has been fine since.

[mll]

Sven's interview from today.  Towards the 8:45 mark he gets asked if he was worried about his career.  He says obviously he was, but that he was reassured by specialists telling him that he was fine, there is nothing wrong with him and that it's just part of recovery and he just had to battle through it.   

 

http://ckstam.streamon.fm/listen-pl-16034?smc=10

 

[Me_]

12 minutes ago, mll said:

Sven's interview from today.  Towards the 8:45 mark he gets asked if he was worried about his career.  He says obviously he was, but that he was reassured by specialists telling him that he was fine, there is nothing wrong with him and that it's just part of recovery and he just had to battle through it.   

 

http://ckstam.streamon.fm/listen-pl-16034?smc=10

 

.... until the last concussion he’ll have. He will eventually have a career-ender for sure.

[WeneedLumme]

35 minutes ago, Me_ said:

.... until the last concussion he’ll have. He will eventually have a career-ender for sure.

For sure, huh? Thanks for that Nostradamus. When I was much younger, I also had the delusion that I could predict the future, but I eventually got over it.

[Me_]

7 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

For sure, huh? Thanks for that Nostradamus. When I was much younger, I also had the delusion that I could predict the future, but I eventually got over it.

Eric Lindros

Pat LaFontaine

Marc Savard

Keith Primeau

Paul Kariya

Adam Deadmarsh

Mike Richter

Matthew Barnaby

Stu Grimson

Jeff Beukeboom

Petr Svoboda

Geoff Courtnall

Dean Chynoweth

Dennis Vaske

Nick Kypreos

Gino Odjick

Scott Stevens

Steve Moore

Brett Lindros

 

Read here

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Me_

[WeneedLumme]

7 minutes ago, Me_ said:

Eric Lindros

Pat LaFontaine

Marc Savard

Keith Primeau

Paul Kariya

Adam Deadmarsh

Mike Richter

Scott Stevens

Steve Moore

Brett Lindros

 

Read here

 

So is it your position that these are the only players ever to have multiple concussions? Brilliant.

[73 Percent]

Oh man. Baerstchi didn't get cleared by CDC doctors... tsk tsk.

Edited March 22, 2019 by 73 Percent

[Me_]

1 minute ago, WeneedLumme said:

So is it your position that these are the only players ever to have multiple concussions? Brilliant.

Alright man. You’re a bit too agressive for me to continue any conversation with you.

 

Good luck.

[73 Percent]

1 minute ago, Me_ said:

Alright man. You’re a bit too agressive for me to continue any conversation with you.

 

Good luck.

Nah man. Fight to the death.

[JamesB]

On 3/18/2019 at 12:26 PM, JayDangles said:

There's no such thing as "healthy" after a concussion, or multiple concussions. Waiting 6 months does not give even a slightly better chance that he is more or less healed. I agree, better to play him now (if doctors are giving thumbs up). Then we know what we have, if he relapses, then he wont be on the roster next year and he'll be enjoying early retirement. I'd rather know that now, before we pencil him in for next season and find out in November his career is over.

 

 

On 3/18/2019 at 4:53 PM, Borvat said:

What pro athlete wouldn't.  I'm saying it may not be the best decision long term.  Crosby shut it down for a prolonged period when his symptoms recurred.  He has been fine since.

I feel compelled to respond to the bolded statement above. I don't know what evidence it is based on but it is dangerously incorrect.

 

A good article explaining research on long term evolution of concussions experience by athletes is here: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/canadian-study-sees-long-term-changes-to-the-brain-after-a-concussion-even-in-younger-athletes/article31045747/

 

The actual scientific  publication it is based on is the following: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/neu.2016.4531.

 

One good thing about the study it that it using MRI imaging, not just self-reported symptoms.

 

Here are some key quotes:

 

1. Researchers have discovered noticeable changes in the brains of athletes with a history of concussions, months or even years after their last injury.

 

2. Churchill [the lead author of the study] would also like to monitor athletes' brains at multiple points throughout their careers, to investigate the changes at different times after an injury. This research has just shown that "there actually is something worth chasing," he said.

 

Here is my reading of the evidence.

 

1. As Churchill's quote above indicates, the long run evolution of concussion recovery is not well-understood, even by leading experts. There is no foundation for saying that nothing would improve after another six months.

 

2. Concussion effects can last a long time, even after the athlete "feels fine".  Baertschi "felt fine" before the Colorado game and obviously was medically cleared to play. But "feeling fine" and being "medically cleared" is not the same thing as being 100% healthy. Even though he "felt fine" he was obviously not fully recovered. Baertschi suffered a relapse and then took a longer time to get back to "feeling fine" again. That is actually a common pattern with post-concussion syndrome.  For players with a history of concussions it looks likely that some brain damage is essentially permanent but the more healing that occurs before further contact, the better. 

 

3. The study indicated above finds that having multiple prior concussions is strongly associated with long run damage. We have observed that players with a concussion history are more likely to get later concussions. The hit that caused the current concussion was not that bad, but Baertschi is obviously vulnerable to concussion, probably in part because he never fully healed from past concussions.

 

4. With almost all injuries, healing continues over time for a long time and that is likely true of concussions. Current research going on now is likely to shed more light on the evolution of concussion recovery.

 

5. For someone with Baertschi's concussion history it is almost certainly better to hold off on significant contact until next fall.

 

6. There is always a trade-off regarding risk and time off. Whenever Baerschi comes back he will be taking some risk, but that risk is likely to be a lot lower next October than it is now.

 

7. Next year could be a big year for Baertschi and for the Canucks. Why jeopardize that now?

 

 

 

 

[Borvat]

 Doctors aren't always right.  He's a young man with a family.  Concussions/brain injuries are nothing to take lightly.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Borvat

[mll]

8 hours ago, JamesB said:

 

I feel compelled to respond to the bolded statement above. I don't know what evidence it is based on but it is dangerously incorrect.

 

A good article explaining research on long term evolution of concussions experience by athletes is here: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/canadian-study-sees-long-term-changes-to-the-brain-after-a-concussion-even-in-younger-athletes/article31045747/

 

The actual scientific  publication it is based on is the following: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/neu.2016.4531.

 

One good thing about the study it that it using MRI imaging, not just self-reported symptoms.

 

Here are some key quotes:

 

1. Researchers have discovered noticeable changes in the brains of athletes with a history of concussions, months or even years after their last injury.

 

2. Churchill [the lead author of the study] would also like to monitor athletes' brains at multiple points throughout their careers, to investigate the changes at different times after an injury. This research has just shown that "there actually is something worth chasing," he said.

 

Here is my reading of the evidence.

 

1. As Churchill's quote above indicates, the long run evolution of concussion recovery is not well-understood, even by leading experts. There is no foundation for saying that nothing would improve after another six months.

 

2. Concussion effects can last a long time, even after the athlete "feels fine".  Baertschi "felt fine" before the Colorado game and obviously was medically cleared to play. But "feeling fine" and being "medically cleared" is not the same thing as being 100% healthy. Even though he "felt fine" he was obviously not fully recovered. Baertschi suffered a relapse and then took a longer time to get back to "feeling fine" again. That is actually a common pattern with post-concussion syndrome.  For players with a history of concussions it looks likely that some brain damage is essentially permanent but the more healing that occurs before further contact, the better. 

 

3. The study indicated above finds that having multiple prior concussions is strongly associated with long run damage. We have observed that players with a concussion history are more likely to get later concussions. The hit that caused the current concussion was not that bad, but Baertschi is obviously vulnerable to concussion, probably in part because he never fully healed from past concussions.

 

4. With almost all injuries, healing continues over time for a long time and that is likely true of concussions. Current research going on now is likely to shed more light on the evolution of concussion recovery.

 

5. For someone with Baertschi's concussion history it is almost certainly better to hold off on significant contact until next fall.

 

6. There is always a trade-off regarding risk and time off. Whenever Baerschi comes back he will be taking some risk, but that risk is likely to be a lot lower next October than it is now.

 

7. Next year could be a big year for Baertschi and for the Canucks. Why jeopardize that now?

 

 

 

 

 

I was surprised by his audio interview posted a few posts above.  He says doctors tell him that his brain is fine.  It's over 9 minutes long where he talks of how he educated himself and what they told him.  In the interview he says that in January he felt 100% but that his body then told him he was not ready.   The medical staff has to protect him against himself and feel confident he is healed.  

The Canucks have activated him off IR - teams can't keep healthy players on IR and the doctors have declared him fit to play.  

 

Green in his post-practice was asked if they were going to be more cautious given the nature of the injury and answered no - he has been cleared to play.

[JamesB]

51 minutes ago, mll said:

 

I was surprised by his audio interview posted a few posts above.  He says doctors tell him that his brain is fine.  It's over 9 minutes long where he talks of how he educated himself and what they told him.  In the interview he says that in January he felt 100% but that his body then told him he was not ready.   The medical staff has to protect him against himself and feel confident he is healed.  

The Canucks have activated him off IR - teams can't keep healthy players on IR and the doctors have declared him fit to play.  

 

Green in his post-practice was asked if they were going to be more cautious given the nature of the injury and answered no - he has been cleared to play.

1. At this point in the year it does not matter if the Canucks have Baertsch on IR or not. The question is whether he plays. The team can now (after the TDL) carry as many players as they like, so whether Baerschi takes up a spot on the active roster does not matter. Also, the NHL is never going to complain about keeping a player on IR due to concussion concerns. Se whether or not he is officially on IR is not an issue.

 

2. Green is just doing his job as coach. He does not get to apply his own medical judgement. If a guy has been cleared to play, then Green can play him. That does not mean that a guy who is cleared to play is 100%. (Usually he isn't.) But Green could not say anything else. He certainly could not say "I think the doctors are wrong so I am going to hold off playing Baertschi". He always has to go by what the team doctors say.

 

3. As for the first point, I also listened to the Baertschi interview. He is trying to be positive and optimistic, as he needs to be, But he is obviously worried, and with good reason. His facial expression certainly looks worried.  Also, if his body was telling him he was not ready, then he was not 100%. Concussions manifest themselves in all kinds of ways -- nausea, dizziness, just feeling not right, and in many other ways. Any of those symptoms means that you are high risk for more serious injury if you take another blow to the head.

 

4. With concussions you never know. He was cleared to play by the Canuck medical staff before but suffered a setback so apparently he was not 100% when previously cleared. That tells us that medical staff does not always get the call on concussions right.  But you cannot keep a guy on IR forever so once a guy passes certain tests he is cleared. That is how the system has to work. However, the fact that the NHL settled a concussion lawsuit and will no doubt face further litigation from guys who opt out of the settlement suggests that they should have been more cautious in the past. No doubt they are being more cautious now. But Baertschi still faces some risks. Given that the remaining games this season are not likely to be important games, I don't think Baertschi should be in a rush to take that risk. 

[spook007]

49 minutes ago, JamesB said:

1. At this point in the year it does not matter if the Canucks have Baertsch on IR or not. The question is whether he plays. The team can now (after the TDL) carry as many players as they like, so whether Baerschi takes up a spot on the active roster does not matter. Also, the NHL is never going to complain about keeping a player on IR due to concussion concerns. Se whether or not he is officially on IR is not an issue.

 

2. Green is just doing his job as coach. He does not get to apply his own medical judgement. If a guy has been cleared to play, then Green can play him. That does not mean that a guy who is cleared to play is 100%. (Usually he isn't.) But Green could not say anything else. He certainly could not say "I think the doctors are wrong so I am going to hold off playing Baertschi". He always has to go by what the team doctors say.

 

3. As for the first point, I also listened to the Baertschi interview. He is trying to be positive and optimistic, as he needs to be, But he is obviously worried, and with good reason. His facial expression certainly looks worried.  Also, if his body was telling him he was not ready, then he was not 100%. Concussions manifest themselves in all kinds of ways -- nausea, dizziness, just feeling not right, and in many other ways. Any of those symptoms means that you are high risk for more serious injury if you take another blow to the head.

 

4. With concussions you never know. He was cleared to play by the Canuck medical staff before but suffered a setback so apparently he was not 100% when previously cleared. That tells us that medical staff does not always get the call on concussions right.  But you cannot keep a guy on IR forever so once a guy passes certain tests he is cleared. That is how the system has to work. However, the fact that the NHL settled a concussion lawsuit and will no doubt face further litigation from guys who opt out of the settlement suggests that they should have been more cautious in the past. No doubt they are being more cautious now. But Baertschi still faces some risks. Given that the remaining games this season are not likely to be important games, I don't think Baertschi should be in a rush to take that risk. 

Well said James,

 

I also believe Greens job is not to contradict the medical staff... Once they say, Baertschi is ok, and he makes himself available, Green includes him as part of our squad.

I do believe, they should have shut him down for the season to give him more time, but since they haven't, then if Green thinks we can win by playing Baertschi, then he has to play him.

Edited March 23, 2019 by spook007

[mll]

4 hours ago, JamesB said:

1. At this point in the year it does not matter if the Canucks have Baertsch on IR or not. The question is whether he plays. The team can now (after the TDL) carry as many players as they like, so whether Baerschi takes up a spot on the active roster does not matter. Also, the NHL is never going to complain about keeping a player on IR due to concussion concerns. Se whether or not he is officially on IR is not an issue.

 

2. Green is just doing his job as coach. He does not get to apply his own medical judgement. If a guy has been cleared to play, then Green can play him. That does not mean that a guy who is cleared to play is 100%. (Usually he isn't.) But Green could not say anything else. He certainly could not say "I think the doctors are wrong so I am going to hold off playing Baertschi". He always has to go by what the team doctors say.

 

3. As for the first point, I also listened to the Baertschi interview. He is trying to be positive and optimistic, as he needs to be, But he is obviously worried, and with good reason. His facial expression certainly looks worried.  Also, if his body was telling him he was not ready, then he was not 100%. Concussions manifest themselves in all kinds of ways -- nausea, dizziness, just feeling not right, and in many other ways. Any of those symptoms means that you are high risk for more serious injury if you take another blow to the head.

 

4. With concussions you never know. He was cleared to play by the Canuck medical staff before but suffered a setback so apparently he was not 100% when previously cleared. That tells us that medical staff does not always get the call on concussions right.  But you cannot keep a guy on IR forever so once a guy passes certain tests he is cleared. That is how the system has to work. However, the fact that the NHL settled a concussion lawsuit and will no doubt face further litigation from guys who opt out of the settlement suggests that they should have been more cautious in the past. No doubt they are being more cautious now. But Baertschi still faces some risks. Given that the remaining games this season are not likely to be important games, I don't think Baertschi should be in a rush to take that risk. 

 

I don't think he should play either that quickly.  He says the doctors tell him his brain is fine and that's he's going to be okay.  They've cleared him to play and it's up to Green now.

 

His contract is likely insured and insurance companies don't pay for healthy players.  

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by mll