Bo Horvat | #53 | C

[73 Percent]

I see him logging 12-14 mins a night lol

[higgyfan]

Placing BH is quite a dilemma for the Canucks.

I don't see Bo gaining much from returning to his Jr team unless he gets a chance to improve his offensive game. To date, Dale Hunter seems to want Bo as his defensive guy who plays against the other teams top lines. It would be great to see Bo have a (statistically) breakout year in Jrs, but I don't see that happening as long as he's only encouraged to play his defensive game.

Ideally, he would prove to be good enough (or even borderline) to play on the Nucks 3rd. That way, they could have him playing 4th line duties, with the plan that he would step up to the 3rd towards the end of the season.

Playing on the 4th isn't the worst thing that could happen. Bo may not get the huge minutes playing on that line, but there are many other benefits in his overall development. Playing/practicing and associating with NHL caliber players and coaches would likely accelerate his transition/development as well as the off ice challenges of being a Canuck rookie. He could also be given new challenges as his game improved. Imagine what it would be like for a young player to have a few shifts with some of the top 6 or some PP and PK opportunities.

Just because he starts on the 4th, doesn't mean he stays there all season. In the end, the team management will have a lot more invested in his complete development than his Jr club would have.

And, he would still be able to compete at the World Jrs.

[Plum]

Sorry Plum, I'm confused? Hoping you can clarify your standpoint?

Do you not see that Horvat starting on the fourth line, does not mean he'll be stuck there all year? This is a nineteen year old kid, who'll be going up against men for his first time, in the best league in the world! Starting Horvat on the fourth line seems to be the natural way to go. Find out if he's ready to compete against men, and at what level his hockey compete is at. If he is consistently getting the puck out of his zone with possesion, and creating offensive chances, while, most importantly, not getting scored on, he'll gradually move up the ladder (lines) against stiffer competition. All coaches mix up the lines at some point in a season, usually when their team is getting creamed, or just putting in a lacklustre effort. And if Horvat proves he can play against the better competition, he'll be tried out on a line with better players.

And if he's not ready to compete in the nhl, losing to many puck battles, not being able to keep up with the play, etc, then he won't play in the nhl. simple as that.

But playing 5-12min a night against nhl competition is way better for his development IMO, than playing against kids in the chl. He'll be able to acclimitize to the rigors of the nhl, and learn what areas of his game he needs to improve, and adjust to the speed of the nhl. The jump from chl to nhl is huge! Few are able to handle the transition overnight, hence the reason most players improve ffrom season to season.

I also have to disagree with your assesment that Horvat is a better player than Dorsett. Not in the sense that he is less skilled than Dorsett, but that the two of them play, in my perception, an entirely different game. I don't think Horvat will be able to contribute to the team what Dorsett will. Likewise, Dorsett won't be able to contribute what Horvat can bring to this team. But an energy guy like Dorsett, fills an important role on this hockey team, which is every bit as important to the team as whaat the Sedins bring.

I completely understand where you are coming from. Of course NHL is a higher level than Junior, one is a men's league while one is boys league. There's no doubt he's physically ready, his team was first up on the grouse grind. He's 200 pounds, looks like an absolute beast. But so are alot of prospects, they just don't have enough skill and I think that is where Horvat is. He needs to tweak his offensive game, nothing bad is going to happen from Junior, nothing at all.

Horvat's minutes are going to decrease significantly, almost 10-12 mins of a decrease. Also 5-12 mins? That's not good at all, kid is 19 and needs to grow. 5-12 mins on the 4th line isn't good enough, it's almost like wasting a year of his development and his ELC. We want him to become a top 6 player so let him be that in Junior, let him get the feel of shutting down top opponents while putting up points. That's who we want him to become, then send him to the AHL and let him do the same thing. Then in the NHL he can do the same thing if everything goes good. That's what I want, I don't want 4th line, 3rd line, 4th line, 2nd line and jumping all over the place. He needs to have consistent minutes, consistent roles, consistent effort, and showing the same success at all levels.

Dorsett maybe a better player in his role but a 4th line of Matthias-Horvat/Richardson-Richardson/Horvat is better than Dorsett on that. Horvat can be physical too and do everything on the ice. Teams get beat by skill not hitters anymore, a 4th line of solid checking players who are alot better than hitters but still some hitting is better than a line full of hitters. Nothing taken away from Dorsett but Horvat is a better hockey player overall.

I also don't think Benning got Dorsett to put him in the press box though it will probably be a good thing from Benning's point of view.

Hertl played 15:19 ATOI last year. Got 25 points in 37 games.

Boone Jenner in Columbus got 14:04 ATOI and 29 points in 72 games.

Are these guys getting ruined because they aren't playing top line minutes? There's nothing more to be learned in Junior for Horvat. If he seems ready, we'll find out in training camp and pre-season. There's a difference between playing this year, and being like Edmonton and throwing 18 year olds into pro, and expect them to learn right out of the gate.

Every player has their own development curve. Some learn faster than others. Look at Kassian. He shows flashes of brilliance, but can't maintain it. He's still learning. Yet rare players like Nathan MacKinnon go in as an 18 year old and plays like he's been born for the NHL.

First of all, this was 3 years after Jenner was drafted and 2 years after Hertl was drafted.

Second, there is actually alot he can learn from junior on the offensive side of the game and his skating. His explosiveness isn't at the level it should be if he wants to be a top 6 player, his offensive skills aren't at that level either. If he can be top 10 in leading the league in scoring that would be great. Of course that doesn't matter as much as if he's physically ready for the NHL, the question is why is he playing on the 4th line? What can he gain from that which can help his offence grow into a NHL top 6 calibre player? I don't think he can learn alot, he's never going to be an offensive star but he still needs to be offensively good enough to play 2nd line minutes which is atleast where we want him to get to.

I have no doubt he's NHL ready but is that really the best place for him to grow? Junior players skill level is higher than NHL 3rd/4th liners. You want him to play top minutes wherever he goes, there is a huge decrease in his minutes from top line Junior to bottom line NHL.

Everybody is hearing "NHL" to "Junior" and thinking yeah the obvious answer is the NHL but it isn't.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Plum

[DrJockitch]

Wow, junior players are better than most 3-4th line NHLers, wow that isn't even true for the AHL. Most junior teams have one or two players that may move on to the NHL at any level. There are a few powerhouse teams with more but the average 3rd or 4th line NHL player is better than the average AHL player which is a huge jump up from junior.

I have mentioned before that Junior really doesn't have a lot to offer Bo. He hasn't had the average Junior career. He has been to three Memorial cups and through two long playoff runs. Unfortunately flu ravaged the Knights when they lost early in the OHL playoffs this year and they had a 35 day layoff before starting the memorial cup. They just couldn't get it going again against the clubs that had just finished their league championship runs after over a month off.

Bo plays a pro game so doesn't really need to go back to learn to play both sides of the puck. He needs to learn to play at an NHL pace, not 20+ minutes a night of junior. If he shows something they should consider keeping him up like St.Louis did with Pieterangelo and let him practice and play every 2nd or third game. Should get him close to WJC and if he is ready he stays up if not to WJC and back to junior for the rest of the season and playoffs. Given the number of games he has played these last three years, should not hurt him. Will give him more time to focus on appropriate physical development as well, less games will give more time for focused workouts to improve explosiveness and lean muscle.

[Plum]

Wow, junior players are better than most 3-4th line NHLers, wow that isn't even true for the AHL. Most junior teams have one or two players that may move on to the NHL at any level. There are a few powerhouse teams with more but the average 3rd or 4th line NHL player is better than the average AHL player which is a huge jump up from junior.

I have mentioned before that Junior really doesn't have a lot to offer Bo. He hasn't had the average Junior career. He has been to three Memorial cups and through two long playoff runs. Unfortunately flu ravaged the Knights when they lost early in the OHL playoffs this year and they had a 35 day layoff before starting the memorial cup. They just couldn't get it going again against the clubs that had just finished their league championship runs after over a month off.

Bo plays a pro game so doesn't really need to go back to learn to play both sides of the puck. He needs to learn to play at an NHL pace, not 20+ minutes a night of junior. If he shows something they should consider keeping him up like St.Louis did with Pieterangelo and let him practice and play every 2nd or third game. Should get him close to WJC and if he is ready he stays up if not to WJC and back to junior for the rest of the season and playoffs. Given the number of games he has played these last three years, should not hurt him. Will give him more time to focus on appropriate physical development as well, less games will give more time for focused workouts to improve explosiveness and lean muscle.

Should have said top junior players for people like you.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic.

[canuckledraggin]

The Horvat dilemma is his age not his ability. By rights he should be playing in Utica this year and learning the pro game. I do agree with others that another year of junior is a waste of his talents. He prides himself on winning faceoffs and being responsible defensively. These are the attributes he needs to be a pro and he already has them in spades. I think he starts with the Canucks this year and unfortunately we burn a year from his elc, but the experience he gains will be invaluable.

Come the end of the year we can send him to the world juniors and if I understand correctly we have the option to send him back to London after that. That window of a couple weeks in the new year then gives you the option of bringing up players like Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Fox or Jensen and seeing if any of them belong in the majors.

It's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out.

[DrJockitch]

Should have said top junior players for people like you.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic.

I always do my best to avoid the pissing contests on this site so won't drop to the name calling. Not sure what your assumptions are about me but keep them to yourself as I really don't care.

I just really disagree with that point. Yes there are a handful of junior players that are better than some NHL 4th liners. I would also suggest here that for the most part that NHL coaches know what they are doing better than I do and I am guessing maybe even better than you. If they have a junior draftee that they think can help then win better than a current fourth liner they keep the junior player. Not like the coaches are really all that concerned about burning ELC years as the average coaching tenure is shorter than an ELC contract, they do what will win.

I am glad that you care so much about the Canucks and really really care about your opinion mine is just different.

[aGENT]

...his skating. His explosiveness isn't at the level it should be if he wants to be a top 6 player

All the more reason he should be playing in the NHL. At best that gets no better playing 20+ minutes a night pacing himself in the OHL. At worst it actually hurts his ability to improve that aspect.

Should have said top junior players for people like you.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic.

He wouldn't be playing against the OHL all star team all season long. He''d be playing against a very select few good players who are equal to (some slightly better, some worse) than NHL 3/4th liners and a bunch of inferior kids.

Thank Gordie, I hope it's true.

Edited August 1, 2014 by J.R.

[duc_evo]

It's too bad that of younger guys can't play in Utica asap. I would love to see them light up the AHL before they get called up.

Shinkaruk McCann Jensen

Virtanen Horvat Fox

Gaunce

Cassels

I hope we get some chemistry from some of these guys.

[wshdrvvn]

If he's good enough to make the Canucks on the 4th line, he will get more minutes as he earns them. As Herb Brooks would say, "GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!"

[Off_The_Schneid!]

This one is going to come down to Willy D. I think he will have a large say and the fact he told Horvat that he wanted him to fight hard for a spot is quite telling

[Gaudette Celly]

Horvat's minutes are going to decrease significantly, almost 10-12 mins of a decrease. Also 5-12 mins? That's not good at all, kid is 19 and needs to grow. 5-12 mins on the 4th line isn't good enough, it's almost like wasting a year of his development and his ELC. We want him to become a top 6 player so let him be that in Junior, let him get the feel of shutting down top opponents while putting up points.

Minutes are not a simple numbers game -- more good less bad. Have you not heard what Benning and Linden have said? They do not want to see him playing 25 minutes per game in junior and learning to pace himself. If he's ready to tackle the NHL, when given 10-14 minutes he will be expected to go out there and bust his butt every shift, and learn what it's like the play in the bigs. The more he shows he can handle, the more he'll be given. This would be the same if he were coming in after a couple years in the AHL. Worst-case he splits the season with the junior club and one year of ELC may be affected, but what ultimately matters is what's best for his development and that's where the people much more knowledgeable than us have my trust.

[Outsiders]

if Horvat makes the team he is not playing on the 4th line. he will be on the 3rd. however I don't see horvat making it. he will finsish junior and then try out again not make it then play his first year in the AHL then try again and make it

[Plum]

Minutes are not a simple numbers game -- more good less bad. Have you not heard what Benning and Linden have said? They do not want to see him playing 25 minutes per game in junior and learning to pace himself. If he's ready to tackle the NHL, when given 10-14 minutes he will be expected to go out there and bust his butt every shift, and learn what it's like the play in the bigs. The more he shows he can handle, the more he'll be given. This would be the same if he were coming in after a couple years in the AHL. Worst-case he splits the season with the junior club and one year of ELC may be affected, but what ultimately matters is what's best for his development and that's where the people much more knowledgeable than us have my trust.

I said I was done with this topic.

I believe it's more important to play against play against top players like McDavid, Konecny, Ritchie, Bennett, Dal Colle than 4th liners in the NHL playing not many minutes. I think a year in the AHL will also help him become the best he can become.

[Off_The_Schneid!]

I said I was done with this topic.

I believe it's more important to play against play against top players like McDavid, Konecny, Ritchie, Bennett, Dal Colle than 4th liners in the NHL playing not many minutes. I think a year in the AHL will also help him become the best he can become.

4th liners don't just play against 4th liners and if he excels he could potentially play a pp or pk role. Youth is extremely important for penalty shots as well, just having Jensen in the lineup last year added a dynamic to the team

[Plum]

4th liners don't just play against 4th liners and if he excels he could potentially play a pp or pk role. Youth is extremely important for penalty shots as well, just having Jensen in the lineup last year added a dynamic to the team

So the 3rd line should play against the 4th liners?

I don't really understand how youth has anything to do with penalty shots, Horvat needs to excel to earn that spot. I doubt he'll beat out our top 9 players for those spots.

[Off_The_Schneid!]

4th lines play against all lines all the time. You ever watch a game? With your reasoning as soon as the other teams 4th line goes off the ice the opposite team would drop everything and do the same?

[Gaudette Celly]

I said I was done with this topic.

I believe it's more important to play against play against top players like McDavid, Konecny, Ritchie, Bennett, Dal Colle than 4th liners in the NHL playing not many minutes. I think a year in the AHL will also help him become the best he can become.

...but you cannot turn away. You have a real blindspot here, and do not seem to understand how things actually work with the development of prospects. Won't be long and we'll see what they do with Horvat, but don't go calling them out as fools when Horvat makes the team and plays on the fourth line.

[Tangelos]

I want Horvat to have the same development path as couturier. Get him in the nhl at a young age, groom him into a shut down guy first as he slowly improves his offensive game

[Plum]

4th lines play against all lines all the time. You ever watch a game? With your reasoning as soon as the other teams 4th line goes off the ice the opposite team would drop everything and do the same?

I'm saying if he's on the 4th line he clearly isn't good enough to play in the top 9 which means he isn't good enough to play against that type of competition. Sure he can have a few shifts a game against that type of competition but he shouldn't be playing in a role he isn't ready for.

...but you cannot turn away. You have a real blindspot here, and do not seem to understand how things actually work with the development of prospects. Won't be long and we'll see what they do with Horvat, but don't go calling them out as fools when Horvat makes the team and plays on the fourth line.

I know how development works, if you want to really develop your player into the best player he can become then do it like Detroit. They let them sit in the AHL and play top minutes while slowly transitioning to the same player at the NHL level. Give Horvat the same role in Junior, AHL and then to the NHL. Don't go top line Junior to bottom line NHL.

Horvat should go as this:

13/14: Two-way, top line Junior.

14/15: AHL, top 6, two-way shutdown player (same role as in junior), playing same minutes. If he excels give him some time in the NHL and see how he does in a 2nd/3rd line spot.

15/16: Start him in the AHL, if there's no doubt, then he's ready to play in the NHL. If it goes correctly he should be able to jump into the top 6 while he's still on his ELC or close to the top 6. Then he finally grows into the player want.

I just hope our development staff don't screw it up.