[Proposal] Tanev to Toronto for...

[elvis15]

6 hours ago, Blömqvist said:

Let me preface this trade by pointing out a few recent moments in Canuck history where management failed to act in time for the organization's best interests. 

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#1. Before the 2011 Cup Run the Vancouver Canucks had arguably the best goalie in the league in Roberto Luongo and another very good goalie prospect in Cory Schneider. Schneider spent time in the NCAA and AHL honing his craft, and when he made the big club he was able to refine his game under the tutelage of Luongo and goalie coach Rollie Melanson. Schneider was ready to be a full-time goaltender. 
 
Then general manager Mike Gillis made a few trades on Trade Deadline 2011 to acquire forwards Max Lapierre and Chris Higgins, both of whom played key parts in the run to the finals later on that year. The team had depth in all three positions at forward, defense, and goaltending. What would have put the Canucks over the top was to trade the budding Schneider and possibly blue chip prospect Cody Hodgson for a 1st line impact forward. There was speculation -- mostly from fans -- that Philadelphia's Jeff Carter would have been a good fit for the Canucks and Schneider being a good fit for the Flyers' goaltending, but instead management decided to hold on to both Schneider and Hodgson. The Canucks then went on to and lost in Stanley Cup Finals to the Boston Bruins, scoring just 8 goals in 7 games.

That offseason, Philadelphia traded Jeff Carter to Columbus and Mike Richards to Los Angeles and signed UFA goalie Ilya Bryzgalov. The moves to bring in Bryzgalov became a gigantic flop, and the Flyers bought him out a few seasons after.

The following year at the trade deadline management traded Hodgson for Zack Kassian in a surprise move that shook the hockey community. Then at the 2013 NHL Draft management traded Schneider for the pick that became current Canuck Bo Horvat. Had management traded Schneider and possibly Hodgson for an impact forward like Jeff Carter would we have won the Stanley Cup that year with his extra scoring? We would definitely not have had Horvat, but what if we had our team's first Cup?
 

#2. In the summer of 2013 there were rumours that defenseman Alex Edler was on the trade block and that the Detroit Red Wings were interested in his services. The Canucks were transitioning out of the Vigneault-era and were just about to start the short-lived Tortorella era. Change was coming. Edler signed an extension to his previous contract, which now -- in addition to the pay raise -- included a full NTC that would come into effect July 1, 2013. The Canucks had an outrageous price for Edler: three or four pieces and one of those pieces had to be a 1st round pick. Detroit at the time had an excess in young forwards and had a need for a top defenseman. Had management not been outrageous with their asking price, it could be that the Canucks have Tatar or Nyquist along with Mantha on the roster today.
 

 

...

Wow, wishful thinking on the first part.

 

Carter and Richards were big contracts and notorious party boys so definitely no guarantee to be a help to anyone. LA got both, and Carter worked out, but Richards became an anchor. Add to that Schneider was very new in the league at that point and didn't hold a lot of value (goalies hold less value in general, but then to have a young, unproven goalie?) and Hodgson looked like he still had potential to turn the corner and become a solid player but had lots of question marks.

 

In both Carter trades (from Philly to CBJ, from CBJ to LA), the trading team got a solid young player in return (Voracek and Johnson respectively) and a 1st round pick (plus a 3rd in LA's case). Schneider and Hodgson wouldn't have got it done with their combined 35 games of NHL experience at that point since Voracek was 3 full seasons of reasonable production (38, 50 and 46 points) into his career and a CBJ 1st was going to be top half of the round. Moving that trade back to the deadline and it does nothing but decrease the value of our offer significantly.

 

None of that even touches on the cap room required to take on Carter at the time he was actually traded. He'd just signed a long term, big cap contract with Philly and they only decided to trade him after. Us, a cap ceiling team competing for the cup, trading two ELCs to Philly does not make the room to fit in that contract the following years.

[hammertime]

2 hours ago, Zhukini said:

Because what good is an individual player entering their prime, when the team as a whole will be on the downswing for the next 2 years minimum?

 

Yes Tanev will be 27, but he'll be 29 by that time, and probably closer to 32 by the time we are perennial contenders to at least get out of the second round, if not older. 

 

I understand they need one veteran on defence, but Edler isn't waiving anywhere and Gudbransson should only get better, this is about maximizing return before you're trying to trade a declining player because you were hesitant to pull the trigger when you could. 

 

That being said, it feels like Hutton will be the one traded, not Tanev

Trading Hutton would accomplish nothing as far as the ED is concerned. Hutton trade would be an additional move to a Tanev/Sbis/Edler move. I wouldn't rule it our though as a piece in grabbing Jost, Keller, Dvorak, Merkley, Mcinnis, Rubtsov etc

[Toews]

The problem with trading Tanev is that there is no one currently in the organization that can handle his minutes. Neither Gudbranson or Stecher are capable of playing those minutes. Keeping Tanev (and Edler) allows them to shelter our young defenseman. Its important that we bring these guys along slowly and not give them more responsibility than they can handle. This is why I am less inclined towards moving Tanev.

 

Although the value in this trade is pretty great. Kapanen is a legit prospect with top line potential. The 1st will around 15th overall which should let us grab another decent prospect.

[JM_]

I don't see the point in bringing up Mike Gilliis' shortcomings for the purpose of a move Benning makes... but having said that, Tanev is the top shot suppression D in the league (http://www.stanleycupofchowder.com/2016/8/16/12481256/the-top-20-defensemen-in-the-nhl-right-now-for-real)

 

So... in terms of return we need to be looking at a legit young top 6 F (similar to the Hall deal) vs. a 2017 pick imo. I can't stand Nylander and he's objectively way too soft for the kind team Benning is building so I no longer see a deal with TO working. Colorado still seems like the best option for a top 6 player imo.

[Phil_314]

Agreed with moving him in the near future, e.g. next season for an '18 1st round pick and young asset, to a near contender needing a top-pairing D-man.  The early pick in next season's draft could result in another blue-chip center joining the fold for years to come. 

In the short term, keeping Tanev would allow Stecher, Gudbranson and Tryamkin to continually increase their minutes and responsibilities such that the damage caused by losing Chris in the top-4 would be minimized.  Troy already plays 20 minutes a night while Erik was the big-minute, heavy-responsibility D-man in Florida such that when they traded him the Panthers lamented losing him on their back end.  With a full season of them logging big minutes, Erik having a Sbisa-like resurrection in his career and Tree increasing his time and role (he plays ~16:37 this season) they should be able to handle losing Tanev while bringing needed balance and depth in young talent throughout the roster.

After seeing Jim's heists at the deadline I think it's safe to say that he knows what he's doing.  Trust the process.  

[goblix]

Tanev NTC kicks in after this season, so the time to trade would be now, that said a first + Kapenen would not be my target.

Toronto needs a player like Tanev on their team, you see how much Larsen in Edmonton just settled everyone in to their correct positions. These guys are not flashy but are effective and needed.

 

Nylander or bust from Toronto, probably after the expansion draft because who cares if we expose Sbisa and he gets taken and should help Tanev's trade appeal.

 

On this years draft, it is weak in terms of generational players but it seems deep in terms of top 6 potential specifically with centers. This is the kind of draft where you could pick in the 10-20 range and come out with a top 5 player in the draft and a top line player.

 

I'd also try to trade Edler, not a Edler hater but I think Juolevi is on the team next year and Tryamkin better suited on the left side.

Hutton - Stecher

Juolevi - Gudbranson

Tryamkin - Subban? UFA depth guy? Sbisa? 2017 pick?

Biega

[messier's_elbow]

If Toronto wants Tanev they need to cough up Nylander. Kapanen won't get it done. 

[messier's_elbow]

2 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

I don't see the point in bringing up Mike Gilliis' shortcomings for the purpose of a move Benning makes... but having said that, Tanev is the top shot suppression D in the league (http://www.stanleycupofchowder.com/2016/8/16/12481256/the-top-20-defensemen-in-the-nhl-right-now-for-real)

 

So... in terms of return we need to be looking at a legit young top 6 F (similar to the Hall deal) vs. a 2017 pick imo. I can't stand Nylander and he's objectively way too soft for the kind team Benning is building so I no longer see a deal with TO working. Colorado still seems like the best option for a top 6 player imo.

How is Nylander any softer then Goldobin?

[JM_]

27 minutes ago, messier's_elbow said:

How is Nylander any softer then Goldobin?

We don't know if Goldy is or not. We do know that Nylander is.

[kloubek]

Not sure about Kapenen.  While offensively gifted, he isn't at all a big or forceful player and he's supposedly terribly inconsistent.  He may not even end up an NHL player at all at this rate.  Combined with a mid-round 1st, we might be giving up the better of that package.  (Too early to tell, of course).

Players like Tanev are rare.  If we give him up, we aren't likely to find another for some time.  So as a current top-end shutdown guy, I would expect a young, sure-fire first line player in return.  Trade rumors have Hutton as being the name that seems to come up the most lately, and even though I absolutely love the guy and his attitude, plus the fact that he appears to have the greatest offensive potential of our young defensemen (save for maybe Stecher), at least that makes more sense if he is worth enough to get us a good forward with upside.  If we give up Tanev, we WILL get scored on more.  And if that is the case, then any extra scoring we get in the return for him will be largely offset.  To me, that doesn't make sense. 

 

I would far rather give up Edler if it was at all possible, but between his poor +/- , getting up there in age, and contract clause, I just don't see him getting traded at all - let alone for a top six player in return.

[JayCanuck10]

11 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

This is not the year to trade Tanev away.  It's a relatively weak draft year. 

Who says it has to be 2017 picks? GMJB can always ask for 2018 draft picks you know...

[goblix]

1 minute ago, JayCanuck10 said:

Who says it has to be 2017 picks? GMJB can always ask for 2018 draft picks you know...

teams rarely put in first rounders for the next year... too much unknowns there... Leafs got burned when they traded for Kessel and their 2nd first became Tyler Seguin 2OA

[scheif16]

6 hours ago, ReggieBush said:

No. If we move Tanev to Toronto, I want Marner back. Nothing less, we don't settle when moving a top pairing dman

Or William Nylander

[billabong]

I agree if tanev is to be moved it's at the draft because I believe his ntc's kicks i July 1st if I'm not mistaken

 

 BUT this year is gonna be weird with the expansion draft and next to nothing available in free agency soooo that means the trade market is gonna be poppin! 

 

Now there will will be a glut of top 4 D available. Fowler, vatanen, montour, Barrie, Martinez, brodin, scandella, dumba, enstrom, Myers, trouba, Ellis, Braun etc... 

 

now you can rank them whichever way you want but where do our guys rank? Edler? Tanev? Sbisa? Or even Subban? How big of a market will there be? How much will teams be willing to spend? Will D be at a premium because there is 1 or 2 legit top 4 hitting UFA market? 

 

Lots questions to be answered and dominos to fall  

[TheGuardian_]

I think most of the negative responses here are because some of the posters are thinking about winning next year. They seem to be worried about losing more than looking 3 years into the future. Being older certainly makes the future now for me, but I have accepted that this management group is in no hurry to take chances, they seem to want to milk out a proper rebuild as long as possible and make only "safe" moves.

 

While I am not against trading Tanev before his NTC kicks in, I don't think mere draft picks should be the target, no matter how good picks look in junior they don't always turn out in the NHL, so it is taking a chance.

 

IMO any Tanev deal should be for a young NHL player/prospect, a previous top 3 or 4 draft pick. The player should be a forward, preferably a center and have size.

 

This Canuck team while getting younger is also getting much smaller and softer. There are two seasons, regular season and playoff season, size does usually make a difference in the second season and that could be why Benning has been getting so many smaller skilled guys, big skilled guys are hard to come by. 

[cripplereh]

to me if the right deal is there and me would rather go after Nylander  then yes as Tanev is great but gets injured so much in the last few years he would be better off getting something when we can,then to hang on and get less later

[Adarsh Sant]

15 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

This is not the year to trade Tanev away.  It's a relatively weak draft year. 

The draft is weaker at the top. From the mid-1st round onwards it is just as much of a risk as any other draft year. Also, trading Tanev would help the tank for next year....

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Adarsh Sant said:

The draft is weaker at the top. From the mid-1st round onwards it is just as much of a risk as any other draft year. Also, trading Tanev would help the tank for next year....

Plus, Tanev new NTC kicks in this July 1.  

[SabreFan1]

3 hours ago, JayCanuck10 said:

Who says it has to be 2017 picks? GMJB can always ask for 2018 draft picks you know...

The OP did.  That's who I was responding to.

Quote

Then at the 2017 NHL Entry Draft:

- With our 1st round pick select the best available centre (Patrick/Hischier/Vilardi/Mittelstadt/Glass/Pettersson)

- Trade the TOR 1st and CLB 2nd to move up and select defenseman Callan Foote

- With our 2nd round pick select goaltender Jake Oettinger

 

[SabreFan1]

12 minutes ago, Adarsh Sant said:

The draft is weaker at the top. From the mid-1st round onwards it is just as much of a risk as any other draft year. Also, trading Tanev would help the tank for next year....

I'd rather JB have all options available to trade up as far as he can in a good draft year if he can finagle a good deal.  Getting him an extra top 5-7 pick in a good draft could seriously speed things up for the Canucks rebuild.  Drafting well builds great teams and JB was hired for his young talent evaluation skills.