[Speculation] Tanev to Toronto (Scott Cullen)

[Borvat]

Sorry double post.

 

[Borvat]

14 minutes ago, VIC_CITY said:

But what is your goal when you say we need someone to help? Help doing what? I'd rather be lousy for the next 2 years, hoard prospects/picks and build a sustainable winner. It's the same line of thinking that goes into whether or not we re-sign Miller. Sure Miller and Duchene will help us win more games but for what? So we can finish in 10th instead of 15th? You can't tell me trading Tanev for Duchene makes us a playoff team. So why bother? If we're gonna be a bad team, let's trade the vets for prospects/picks and draft as high as possible. I'm not exactly inventing this formula...

You are deflecting in my opinion.  I never mentioned Miller. I never said Duchene makes us a playoff team.  I said Tanev for Duchene was a good deal (hockey trade for organizational need) for the Canucks' based on need.  Help means someone who can play and can contribute and gives the team hope. You fill needs when you have a chance, top six center is a definite organizational need. 

 

Trading vets for picks and prospects sure again based on need.  Tanev is older than Duchene and Duchene fills a need.  And how have the 5th overall picks panned out so far?  Time will tell, by then 2 - 3 years will have passed and Duchene will only be 28 or 29 years old.  Bo will be 24 or 25.  Not really that old for either.

 

I get your theory but I don't agree in this case.  That's okay that's why they are called opinions. 

 

[VIC_CITY]

5 minutes ago, Borvat said:

You are deflecting in my opinion.  I never mentioned Miller.  I never said Duchene makes us a playoff team.  I said Tanev for Duchene was a good deal (hockey trade for organizational need) for the Canucks' based on need.  You fill needs when you have a chance, top six center is a definite need. 

 

Trading vets for picks and prospects sure.  Tanev is older than Duchene.  And how have the 5th overall picks panned out so far?  Time will tell, by then 2 - 3 years will have passed and Duchene will only be 28 or 29 years old.  Bo will be 23 or 24.  Not really that old for either.

 

I get your theory but I don't agree in this case.  That's okay that's why they are called opinions.

 

Hey, JB could do a lot worse than Duchene for Tanev. Center is a huge need for us. Although, we'd have a logjam at C until the Sedins retired. If we were to acquire Duchene, that would allow us to draft a defenseman at 5th. That's not exactly a bad thing. One thing I think we can both agree on though is that JB should trade Tanev. But there's a good chance Tanev could still be a Canuck come October. Our D would be pretty sad next year so an argument could be made that JB should wait until next year's trade deadline. But it's a risky move considering Tanev is prone to injury. We'll see what happens. Should be an exciting next month!

[Borvat]

1 minute ago, VIC_CITY said:

Hey, JB could do a lot worse than Duchene for Tanev. Center is a huge need for us. Although, we'd have a logjam at C until the Sedins retired. If we were to acquire Duchene, that would allow us to draft a defenseman at 5th. That's not exactly a bad thing. One thing I think we can both agree on though is that JB should trade Tanev. But there's a good chance Tanev could still be a Canuck come October. Our D would be pretty sad next year so an argument could be made that JB should wait until next year's trade deadline. But it's a risky move considering Tanev is prone to injury. We'll see what happens. Should be an exciting next month!

I agree on the Tanev trade and if we did get a center it would open the board for the draft options.  I just don't want to see Bo left to try and do everything without any help for the next few years. 

[Honky Cat]

After JB's announcement regarding Tanev..I honestly don't see him going anywhere...The last thing that management wants to do, is to turn this team into a tire fire of epic proportions,namely by throwing the young D into the deep end...If a player like Joulevi made the team out of camp,there has to be adequate support,otherwise you wind up like the Oilers of 2 years ago.

 

[48MPHSlapShot]

2 hours ago, Borvat said:

So who plays top six center for the next 3 - 4 years? Assuming Mittelstadt is ready and is capable of stepping in and playing and leaves college early?  And the player you draft still requires a year of junior and you assume they are top six caliber?  I'm sorry but that's too many if's for too long.

 

Duchene can play now and is in his prime.  Mr. Sedin is not with all due respect. And we are not getting Reinhart unless it's for a lot more than the Canuck's can afford to pay.  I wish it were so.

To put it bluntly, who cares? We're nowhere close to competing. Just throw a plug in.

[messier's_elbow]

10 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

To put it bluntly, who cares? We're nowhere close to competing. Just throw a plug in.

You do have a point,  but we don't want to be Edmonton circa 2011. If we could pry Dallas's pick for Tanev plus a second... dare to dream. If we got Vilardi and Heiskanen or Liljegren id kiss JB. 

[aGENT]

11 hours ago, VIC_CITY said:

Our D would be pretty sad next year so an argument could be made that JB should wait until next year's trade deadline. But it's a risky move considering Tanev is prone to injury. 

Also that he has an NTC that kicks in this July.

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, messier's_elbow said:

You do have a point,  but we don't want to be Edmonton circa 2011.

I think we're already largely past that point. If we move one of Edler or Tanev, the other will still be here for the short-mid term. There's also younger vets with leadership in Sbisa and Gudbranson.

 

Then there's still the twins, Sutter Dorsett etc at forward and Horvat's no slouch in the leadership department either.

 

We're quickly approaching the time to start unbolting the training wheels IMO. They don't have to all be off this summer but in the next 2 +/- years they should all largely be gone including some now, this summer.

[Gaudette Celly]

10 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

To put it bluntly, who cares? We're nowhere close to competing. Just throw a plug in.

That's the irony -- some call for a tear-down rebuild, then turn around and fret "but who's our replacement for Hank?"

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I think we're already largely past that point. If we move one of Edler or Tanev, the other will still be here for the short-mid term. There's also younger vets with leadership in Sbisa and Gudbranson.

 

Then there's still the twins, Sutter Dorsett etc at forward and Horvat's no slouch in the leadership department either.

 

We're quickly approaching the time to start unbolting the training wheels IMO. They don't have to all be off this summer but in the next 2 +/- years they should all largely be gone including some now, this summer.

Hard to trade NTC's and what other teams don't want, isn't it?  Twins we got for one more season.  Then we shall see if our management is really up to a rebuild.

[VIC_CITY]

14 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Also that he has an NTC that kicks in this July.

Ya, although he can only name 8 teams he can't be traded to, it could definitely have an affect on the offers received. Right now (or after the ED), there could potentially be a pretty significant bidding war for Tanev. So this could quite possibly be the best time to trader Tanev. On the flip side of things, teams do get pretty desperate at the trade deadline.

[Ghostsof1915]

I'm ok with trading Tanev with the caveat on what the return is. 

 

We would need someone in to replace him that can actually defend, not just be a power play QB. 

 

This is from January so it's a small sample size but it gives you an idea of the steadying influence he has.

 

Record with Tanev: 9-4-2

Pace for 109 points 

37 GA / 2.46 GAA

---

Without Tanev: 8-14-1

Pace of 60 points for the season 

77 GA / 3.34 GAA

 

[Rink on Renfrew]

11 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I'm ok with trading Tanev with the caveat on what the return is. 

 

We would need someone in to replace him that can actually defend, not just be a power play QB. 

 

This is from January so it's a small sample size but it gives you an idea of the steadying influence he has.

 

Record with Tanev: 9-4-2

Pace for 109 points 

37 GA / 2.46 GAA

---

Without Tanev: 8-14-1

Pace of 60 points for the season 

77 GA / 3.34 GAA

 

Not only is it a small sample size, if memory serves me, our level of competition dramatically improved durning that losing stretch.

 

He is important to this team nonetheless.

[Borvat]

11 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

To put it bluntly, who cares? We're nowhere close to competing. Just throw a plug in.

I would imagine the owners care, the players care, potential college players looking for a team care, good free agents care, players with NTC's or Limited NTC's that the Canuck's may want to trade for care and real fans care. If you are talking who cares like in Edmonton for a decade and losing doesn't matter then sure, who cares. 

 

When the building is empty, players don't want to be here and ownership won't spend because they are losing money I think we will all care.  

[VIC_CITY]

3 minutes ago, Borvat said:

I would imagine the owners care, the players care and real fans care. If you are talking who cares like in Edmonton for a decade then sure, who cares. 

 

When the building is empty and ownership won't spend because they are losing money I think we will all care.  

I agree with the first 2 but not the 3rd. The real fans have been supporting this team for years, through all of the ups and downs and will continue to support this team throughout a full rebuild. We don't need name power or flash and dash, we don't care if we finish last in the standings, we just a want a Stanley Cup. The best route to that is a complete rebuild, not one foot in, one out. That's what Chicago did, that's what Pittsburgh did, that's what Toronto has recently done, that's the way to do it. We're not in it to simply be entertained in the short term. We see the big picture. A top 5 draft pick again next year will go a long way towards creating a sustainable winner. Rebuilds aren't fun. They require patience. Let the kids play - they might even surprise you. If not, at least we get another good draft pick. Sacrifice today to be rewarded tomorrow.

[Borvat]

9 minutes ago, VIC_CITY said:

I agree with the first 2 but not the 3rd. The real fans have been supporting this team for years, through all of the ups and downs and will continue to support this team throughout a full rebuild. We don't need name power or flash and dash, we don't care if we finish last in the standings, we just a want a Stanley Cup. The best route to that is a complete rebuild, not one foot in, one out. That's what Chicago did, that's what Pittsburgh did, that's what Toronto has recently done, that's the way to do it. We're not in it to simply be entertained in the short term. We see the big picture. A top 5 draft pick again next year will go a long way towards creating a sustainable winner. Rebuilds aren't fun. They require patience. Let the kids play - they might even surprise you. If not, at least we get another good draft pick. Sacrifice today to be rewarded tomorrow.

I don't disagree, but to say put in a plug who cares isn't reality.  Lots of people and players care, to the point of not wanting to be here.  With the new lottery system finishing last guarantees you nothing unlike the past.  I am all for a re-build but it doesn't have to be tank until we hit the jackpot.  What if the jackpot doesn't happen for the next ten years - McDavid / Crosby.

[Alflives]

43 minutes ago, Borvat said:

I don't disagree, but to say put in a plug who cares isn't reality.  Lots of people and players care, to the point of not wanting to be here.  With the new lottery system finishing last guarantees you nothing unlike the past.  I am all for a re-build but it doesn't have to be tank until we hit the jackpot.  What if the jackpot doesn't happen for the next ten years - McDavid / Crosby.

The new lottery, if we finish last overall, assures us of a top four pick.  That's one better than Five and two better than Six.  And I agree that we are not likley to get a generational player.  The Hawks won three Cups without having one of those guys.  The Kings have two.  We need to get luck at the draft, and have a couple of our guys turn out to be elite, like Toews/Kane, or Doughty/Kopitar.  Then JB can build around them.

[Honky Cat]

3 hours ago, J.R. said:

I think we're already largely past that point. If we move one of Edler or Tanev, the other will still be here for the short-mid term. There's also younger vets with leadership in Sbisa and Gudbranson.

 

Then there's still the twins, Sutter Dorsett etc at forward and Horvat's no slouch in the leadership department either.

 

We're quickly approaching the time to start unbolting the training wheels IMO. They don't have to all be off this summer but in the next 2 +/- years they should all largely be gone including some now, this summer.

Are we..?..The loss of Tryamkin was a real kick in the cobblers...Its debatable that Gudbranson or Sbisa can really carry a pairing (both are mistake prone) ...While I am optimistic that Guddy can turn things around next season (injury free,and with a new coach),his stats are horrific...We are 29th place for a reason.

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

Are we..?..The loss of Tryamkin was a real kick in the cobblers...Its debatable that Gudbranson or Sbisa can really carry a pairing (both are mistake prone) ...While I am optimistic that Guddy can turn things around next season (injury free,and with a new coach),his stats are horrific...We are 29th place for a reason.

The loss of Tryamkin does suck. But it is manageable. 

 

Guddy's stats where he played injured for what, 1/4 of the season? 

 

Edler, Stecher 

Hutton, Gudbranson

Holm, Sbisa

(Joulevi, Pedan, McEneny, Biega etc)

 

...is a perfectly capable, mid rebuild D core, with plenty of experience. Even if not likely to lead us to a cup (was anyone counting on that?).

 

We'll likely finish bottom 10 again Tanev or not. Makes no sense to waste his value, in his prime, on a team rebuilding. We have plenty of guys that can 'shelter' while we lose.