What Are Your Thoughts of What A Rebuild Is?

[Gollumpus]

13 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Positive in what though? Draft picks? Pretty short sighted IMO.

 

The point is to come out positive in NHL players. You hope draft picks turn in to NHL players but a draft pick is just a draft pick until it isn't.

 

IMO, Benning is doing just fine at adding current and potential NHL players. And that's all that really matters. He's kept all his high picks where he stands the biggest chance of getting high impact players and has added a tonne of depth both professional and prospect that overall look promising to have potential NHL careers. 

 

Frankly, people arguing in countless threads for countless pages on their personally preferred route of getting to the destination is frankly, silly. All that particularly matters is that we're getting there, which only the most obtuse would still bother arguing we aren't.

 

Do we still need some pieces? Yup. Good things there's still a couple more years of rebuilding to go.

 

A very good point.

 

                                 regards,  G.

[GritGrinder]

19 hours ago, Baggins said:

What's backfired? The way I see it he's stayed the course. There's more prospects in the pool than I've ever seen.

Ok and if that "course" has the Canucks finish in the bottom 10 the next 2-3 seasons and the crowds at Rogers continue to diminsh do you really think Benning is going to be the GM in 2020-21..?

[TheGuardian_]

I would think that packaging picks for young top line players already in the NHL would speed things up.

 

There have been some young guys out there that are close to the best on their teams that have been moved and are in that mystical age group this management group felt was essential to be a good team.

 

Whether getting these guys would have catapulted the team to the top or not is somewhat moot, the idea would have been to increase the talent level of the top 2 lines and then leave the rest of the job in doing what they are doing now, signing or drafting support players, the 3rd/4th liners.

A few trades, even if over payment is needed could speed up the re...whatever.

 

As far as the Sedins moving, yes they have declared they would not request a trade, but they have said that trading is part of the game and that they haven't been approached by management. Of course Linden has already stated more than once they will play here as long as they want.

 

Benning had no problem moving some of the "clause" contracts and he signed more players to "clause" contracts in a shorter time than the previous group, if some fans use the "clause" contracts as an excuse, then why not the one's he signed which have handcuffed improvement, not in the least is Eriksson's. That much money guarantee's a roster spot.

[RWMc1]

The story keeps changing and too many fans fall for the crapspew from media clowns and internet whiners.

 

C'mon Linden and/or Benning, say rebuild. Say it!! Say rebuild!!! Say it!!!!!! Why won't they say rebuild?!?!? Everyone knows we're rebuilding, why won't they say it. If only they'd say "rebuild" and admit we're rebuilding, then we would get behind the team and support them.

 

If it'll help to unite the fans rebuild.

 

Now it's; They didn't start rebuilding until the moment they said the word rebuild. Why didn't they start rebuilding sooner?

 

It's still going to take a while and the usual suspects with their crappy poop view will find something to whine about. And the narrative will shift to support the whining.

[GritGrinder]

16 hours ago, smithers joe said:

so, if the cdc gm's buy out, the sedins, ericksson and edler, trade gagner, vanek, dorsett, sutter and tanev for 5th round draft picks, who do we replace them with right now? 

personally, i can't answer that question. 

rebuilding the team, is having young players that can come in and push the old core out. but not before they are ready.

Here's a question you can probably answer. Would the Canucks record the last 2 seasons been much different if the players mentioned above were replaced with rookies and no-names?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

17 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Positive in what though? Draft picks? Pretty short sighted IMO.

Positive in terms of acquiring building a prospect pool.  We need to focus on the quality of our AHL talent as to help with the development of our young prospects.  We have gutted talent Utica to speed up progress in the NHL, this year we finally realize that AHL talent also is NHL depth. 

 

17 minutes ago, aGENT said:

The point is to come out positive in NHL players. You hope draft picks turn in to NHL players but a draft pick is just a draft pick until it isn't.

Not quite, the point in a rebuild is to come out positive in high end players.  We could have traded away our 5th overall later year for Stepan, and we'd guarantee ourselves to come out positive in NHL player but it doesn't help us reach the goal of becoming a cup contending team than drafting and developing pettersson into an elite player. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, aGENT said:

IMO, Benning is doing just fine at adding current and potential NHL players. And that's all that really matters. He's kept all his high picks where he stands the biggest chance of getting high impact players and has added a tonne of depth both professional and prospect that overall look promising to have potential NHL careers. 

Sure he's done good.  But you're looking at the cup from a different perspective.  I view it as JB playing with a shortened hand.  If Horvat gets injured for the season and canuck put up 92 points and just miss the playoffs, we'd all view that as a decently successful season, but we'd still all consider how good this team would be had Horvat not got injured.  I consider how good this team would be had JB drafted an extra 8 players (3x) in the second round.  In reference, that would be another Lind, Gadj and Demko in our pool.   

 

17 minutes ago, aGENT said:

People arguing in countless threads for countless pages on their personally preferred route of getting to the destination is frankly, silly. All that particularly matters is that we're getting there, which only the most obtuse would still bother arguing we aren't.

You aren't married are you?

[oldnews]

3 hours ago, ilduce39 said:

Your whole post is a common narrative on CDC and beyond but there's a huge problem:

 

it assumes that "rebuilding" and "committing to a rebuild" are simply a choice to swallow a bitter pill, move forward with youth and reap the rewards down the road.

 

What it doesn't consider is maybe the "pre-shannaplan" moves, rather than aimless meandering,  enabled the Leafs to act on the "shannaplan."  That is, having a stable of quality players across the lineup who are good but not good enough to carry a team on their own enabled the Leafs to cut ties with certain veterans to make room for new top talent when they were ready. 

 

They still kept players who were pros, had seen playoff action and knew how to play well enough to get there. Some core, some support, some depth.

 

Then and only then you add high skill in Marner/Nylander and elite talent in Matthews - into a situation where they can do their thing while properly supported.  

 

Oh and they shelled out big cash to bring in Babcock to ensure it didn't blow up in their faces.

The other part of that narrative that is a complete fail is the oblivion to what the Leafs actually had on their roster at their lowest of points - when they were lottery positioning themselves (it also doesn't hurt when you have a fanbase with literally zero expectations of a team that was horrible literally forever).

 

2015/16 Leafs:

 

32 yr old PA Parenteau - their second leading scorer - a free agent signing ironically - not unlike Mike Santorelli before him

29 yr old Tyler Bozak - a piece they hung onto at their lowest of lows - ironically the same age as Jannick Hansen.

33 yr old Brad Boyes - yet another free agent signing .  Whyz the Leavzzz signing the old guyz an puttin' em in fronna da youd?

29 yr old Colin Greening

31 yr old Joffrey Lupul.  Shoulda mov'd em while dey coulda - waded too longz.

30 yr old Daniel Winnik - again, whyz all the ol' junk on a rebuildin' roster?

29 yr old Roman Polak - and re-signed him again.  I'm guessing it's unclear why to all the folks around here....or is that genius when part of the Shanaplan lol.

30 yr old Matt Hunwick

32 yr old Brooks Laich

30 yr old Milan Michalek

 

A full seven x 30+ yr olds, and another three x 29 yr olds = 10 roster spots for 'old vets'.

 

Ermagerd!

 

Last year - still 8 on their roster.

This year - a half dozen

2014/15 - a full 10 spot.

 

Erma-ermagerd.

 

Can't see the reality staring them in the face with that fantasy narrative in their way.

 

 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Positive in terms of acquiring building a prospect pool.  We need to focus on the quality of our AHL talent as to help with the development of our young prospects.  We have gutted talent Utica to speed up progress in the NHL, this year we finally realize that AHL talent also is NHL depth. 

 

Not quite, the point in a rebuild is to come out positive in high end players.  We could have traded away our 5th overall later year for Stepan, and we'd guarantee ourselves to come out positive in NHL player but it doesn't help us reach the goal of becoming a cup contending team than drafting and developing pettersson into an elite player. 

 

 

Sure he's done good.  But you're looking at the cup from a different perspective.  I view it as JB playing with a shortened hand.  If Horvat gets injured for the season and canuck put up 92 points and just miss the playoffs, we'd all view that as a decently successful season, but we'd still all consider how good this team would be had Horvat not got injured.  I consider how good this team would be had JB drafted an extra 8 players (3x) in the second round.  In reference, that would be another Lind, Gadj and Demko in our pool.   

 

You aren't married are you?

We had no prospects to put in Utica until this year. It's not a matter of 'realizing it', it's a matter of the cupboards were bare. Nothing would have changed that but time.

 

Yup, high end players...god things we kept all those high picks then eh....

 

We're not down 8 picks.... and we have guys like Baer, Gudbranson etc to show for them.

 

Happily married for 6 years actually. 

 

As ON posted elsewhere:

On 10/11/2017 at 6:44 PM, oldnews said:

Interestingly, if you put the "no need to build through the draft" theory to test......

 

What team is a better example than the "stockpile all tha pickz!!" Toronto Maple Leafs?

 

Blueline:

Has one single draft pick of theirs on it - Reilly - ironically a 5th overall taken by Burke before the tankdown.

Zaitsev (FA), Hainsey (FA), Carrick (trade acquisition), Borgman (FA), Rosen (FA).....

Polak, Marincin, Marchenko, Robidas, Cowen, Gleason.....

I suppose we can declare the avoidance of the Leafs to build through the draft - neither Nielsen nor Dermott (both picks of their own, not added via 'stockpiling' - have cut it yet.

 

Goaltenders:

Andersson (trade),  McElhinney (waivers), Pickard (post waiver trade).

They do have a former 7th round pick of Burke's - Sparks - on their AHL squad though (and have parachuted in Pickard to step in front of him).

 

Forwards:

Nylander, Marner, Matthews.   The stockpiling of picks clearly instrumental in these picks.

Marleau, JVR, Komarov, Martin, Fehr, Moore - nope.   Hyman - nope, another acquisition (a Panther's pick).

Connor Brown, Josh Leivo, Kadri,  Bozak - ironically leftover picks from the previous admninistration - pre-stockpile tankdown.

 

The majority of their AHL assets are also taken from outside the draft and outside their organization.

 

Three assets on their roster selected in the draft by their current administration = all top 10, one of them a lottery win.

 

The Leafs - outside those three top 10 picks - have built literally nothing through the draft - not a single asset on their roster.

 

The real myth is that their 'rebuild' has been accomplished by stockpiling pickz - that theory gets rekt the moment you look at any evidence whatsoever.

 

Shanaplan is far more defined by signing a $60 million coach, and wining the lottery.

 

What exactly did all those extra late picks get TOR anyway. We sure are far behind compared to that 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

22 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

If we add up all the picks traded away and brought in, the Canucks are down something like 2 picks in that time period (IIRC) while having an edge in higher value picks,

as well as being up quite a few good assets (players and prospects), who are better than what has been moved out (IMHO).

Are we though?  Obviously it would be hard to prove since we don't truly know who JB would have taken with those draft picks but out of the 8 picks I mentioned, we have Guddy, Baertschi and Dorsett to show for it.  I think it's pretty debatable to say we are behind, not ahead.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

As to your stock investing, maybe you should get some professional help. Your perspective suggests that the team should invest more in the $500 loss stocks on the grounds that it just might pay off. This doesn't seem to be a very high success rate plan.

Based on what?  More high potential talent comes from the draft than traded draft picks for players. 

 

[thrago]

Personally I think, everyone looks at Toronto and Edmonton all wrong.  The general thinking seems to be that those teams had a bad plan that took a decade or more to rebuild and only in the last couple years have they done it right.  I see it differently Both those teams where in a similar situation to Benning when he got here, some aging stars and nothing really in the cupboards.  

 

The general consensus seems to be that both those teams messed around and wasted a decade or more before they did it right and finally rebuilt.  Both teams made mistakes for sure all teams do but for that decade they were acquiring assets and slowly building a team, similar to what Benning is doing now.  Then when they felt they had enough assets they when all in both teams got lucky with a few picks (lottery) and finished the rebuild.  But the real rebuild started a decade before not just the last couple years when the results started showing.

 

You can't build a house without a foundation (win a Cup) at least not one that will stand up.  That's where we are now Benning is building the foundation in a few more years he will start building the house and at that point we will start to see the results.  The foundation needs a lot of work still though.

 

On a side note the reason we are where we are is because Gillis whether it was his fault or not completely ignored the foundation and it collapsed and brought the house down with it.  Benning has taken over and he is trying to build a new foundation and fix a leaking roof at the same time.  Its not going to be easy and its going to take a lot of time and some luck too.  Hopefully when we are ready we will get the next McDavid or Matthews if not we probably start all over in 15 years but hopefully the next time we can just build a new house and not have to build a new foundation too.

[GreyHatnDart]

28 minutes ago, GritGrinder said:

Ok and if that "course" has the Canucks finish in the bottom 10 the next 2-3 seasons and the crowds at Rogers continue to diminsh do you really think Benning is going to be the GM in 2020-21..?

Well so what is it that the tank crowd wants? If we finish bottom 10 it simply increases our odds of landing a stud, no? So isn’t that what you all want? 

 

The crowds at Rogers will continue to diminish as long as the quality of play is less than the amount spent to watch it, and the atmosphere continues to be garbage. The Larscheider’s idea is a great idea, for instance, except it should be every game, not 8 times a year. Perhaps they’re just testing it this season and will increase that next year. 

[GritGrinder]

13 hours ago, Jam126 said:

I would rather be on the road to a high pick with a bunch of vets than destroying the young guys' confidence.

Bo Horvat has done a ton of losing in his 3 years. 140 reg season losses in 235 gp and 4 playoff losses in 6gp is his confidence destroyed?

Sven Baertschi has been on the losing end of nearly 100 of his 144 gp with the Canucks, is his confidence destroyed?

Markus Granlund has lost nearly 60 of the 89 gp with Vancouver is his confidence destroyed?

Ben Hutton 150 gp--106 losses, confidence destroyed yes or no?

[GritGrinder]

7 minutes ago, ThaShady1 said:

Well so what is it that the tank crowd wants? If we finish bottom 10 it simply increases our odds of landing a stud, no? So isn’t that what you all want? 

 

The crowds at Rogers will continue to diminish as long as the quality of play is less than the amount spent to watch it, and the atmosphere continues to be garbage. The Larscheider’s idea is a great idea, for instance, except it should be every game, not 8 times a year. Perhaps they’re just testing it this season and will increase that next year. 

Didn't mention anything about a tank i'm simply saying if the Canucks do not make the playoffs and finish in the bottom 10 (a very real possibility) for the next 2-3 seasons I can't see Benning getting an extension. And once a new GM is in place who knows what changes/direction he'll take with the players/prospects in the organization at that time.

[aGENT]

6 minutes ago, GritGrinder said:

Didn't mention anything about a tank i'm simply saying if the Canucks do not make the playoffs and finish in the bottom 10 (a very real possibility) for the next 2-3 seasons I can't see Benning getting an extension. And once a new GM is in place who knows what changes/direction he'll take with the players/prospects in the organization at that time.

His job, IMO, will depend a lot more on how the prospect pool looks in the next couple years vs where the Canucks happen to finish.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

36 minutes ago, aGENT said:

We had no prospects to put in Utica until this year. It's not a matter of 'realizing it', it's a matter of the cupboards were bare. Nothing would have changed that but time.

Jensen for Etem

Forsling for Clendening

 

Moves that hurt out AHL team and has zero benefit to the NHL team.  It's JB's job to put talent in that system.  I found it funny how he came up with the excuse of not having a playmaking center to help Jake produce more, yet it's JB's job to get that talent into the farm team. 

 

Quote

Yup, high end players...god things we kept all those high picks then eh....

 

We're not down 8 picks.... and we have guys like Baer, Gudbranson etc to show for them.

Funny you stop at etc....who's this etc.  guddy is UFA and Baertschi is a long ways out still before we can consider him a win.  The two players we are hanging out could easily back fire in less than years time.  I'd prefer another Gadj, Demko and Lind in the system.  We guarantee ourselves a minimum of 3 years in our pool. at worst they help our AHL team talent out

 

Quote

Happily married for 6 years actually. 

Drive in separate vehicles then?

 

Quote

As ON posted elsewhere:

 

What exactly did all those extra late picks get TOR anyway. We sure are far behind compared to that

 

 

I find that quote quite humorous.  People love to talk about how canucks rebuild is going so well and then use our prospect pool depth for reference, but when it comes to the leafs they completely forget that they still have a prospect pool. Woll, Dermett, Bracco, Nielsen, Brooks, Liljegren, Grundstrom.  These are every bit of exciting prospects as we have in our system (pettersson might push us ahead).  The leafs not only have top end talent on their current roster, they have talent still coming up in their pool.  Matthews only sped up the process,  Replace matthews with Laine, and they are still way ahead of us

 

Toronto added a starting goalie (all from extra picks) and filled up their prospect pool with top assets.  Assets that then can then use as trade bait. If they need to make a move for a guy like tanev, guess what they have the assets to do. 

 

Only a fool would assume a extra pick doesn't have any effect on who a team picks with their original. 

 

And finally, stock pilling picks doesn't mean you complete shut down every other avenue of development? Does it mean you don't sign UFA's, NCAA player or russian free agents?  But I expect nothing less from the king of straw. 

 

As I said Canucks them selfs are beneficiary’s of accumulating picks

horvat, gadj, guadette, Lockwood, brisebois, McKenzie are all here because of that. Focusing on draft picks is a good goal. Especially when you have a gm know for his scouting

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Jensen for Etem

Forsling for Clendening

 

Moves that hurt out AHL team and has zero benefit to the NHL team.  It's JB's job to put talent in that system.  I found it funny how he came up with the excuse of not having a playmaking center to help Jake produce more, yet it's JB's job to get that talent into the farm team. 

 

Funny you stop at etc....who's this etc.  guddy is UFA and Baertschi is a long ways out still before we can consider him a win.  The two players we are hanging out could easily back fire in less than years time.  I'd prefer another Gadj, Demko and Lind in the system.  We guarantee ourselves a minimum of 3 years in our pool. at worst they help our AHL team talent out

 

Drive in separate vehicles then?

 

 

 

I find that quote quite humorous.  People love to talk about how canucks rebuild is going so well and then use our prospect pool depth for reference, but when it comes to the leafs they completely forget that they still have a prospect pool. Woll, Dermett, Bracco, Nielsen, Brooks, Liljegren, Grundstrom.  These are every bit of exciting prospects as we have in our system (pettersson might push us ahead).  The leafs not only have top end talent on their current roster, they have talent still coming up in their pool.  Matthews only sped up the process,  Replace matthews with Laine, and they are still way ahead of us

 

Toronto added a starting goalie (all from extra picks) and filled up their prospect pool with top assets.  Assets that then can then use as trade bait. If they need to make a move for a guy like tanev, guess what they have the assets to do. 

 

Only a fool would assume a extra pick doesn't have any effect on who a team picks with their original. 

 

And finally, stock pilling picks doesn't mean you complete shut down every other avenue of development? Does it mean you don't sign UFA's, NCAA player or russian free agents?  But I expect nothing less from the king of straw. 

 

 

Those moves made very little impact on anything one way or another. Neither of whom are a play making centre fwiw. 

 

Well Pedan got us Pouliot, we'll see how that turns out.

 

Any player can easily backfire at any time. That's not even a point.

 

Nope, same vehicle. Maybe I'm just easier to get along with

 

We're a good few years behind TOR - and that's being generous. Of course they've got a deeper pool/NHL team. What a silly statement. So does WPG, CAL and EDM...geee I wonder why.

 

Who even made that last point? Speaking of straw...lol

 

Anyhoo, I've had enough fun this morning with your favourite pass time of chasing your tail about which route to take while arriving at the destination all the same. You'll have to fill your boots with someone else.

 

Awwwwwwe...look at the cute puppy!

[ForsbergTheGreat]

3 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

Those moves made very little impact on anything one way or another. Neither of whom are a play making centre fwiw. 

 

Well Pedan got us Pouliot, we'll see how that turns out.

 

Any player can easily backfire at any time. That's not even a point.

 

Nope, same vehicle. Maybe I'm just easier to get along with

 

We're a good few years behind TOR - and that's being generous. Of course they've got a deeper pool/NHL team. What a silly statement. So does WPG, CAL and EDM...geee I wonder why.

Cgy doesn’t have a deeper pool. The have more talent in the nhl.  

 

Im guessing you do wonder but I don’t think you actually know why.  It might have something to do with some teams focusing on the draft during their rebuild vs focussing on retooling on the fly.

 

Yep. When you are cornered and got not way to come up with a rebuttal it goes right back to the gifs.  Next time instead of the dog, you might want to use a person waiving the white flag. 

 

[JM_]

1 hour ago, smithers joe said:

the truth is, we have players that can replace the old core, they are just not ready right now. some fans want the moves to happen right now. they won't. it's the old, we should have drafted kopitar threads. what we see is what we're getting.  we all have opinions but so does benning and linden. 

Shoulda woulda. I know its easy to look back at drafts. I'm excited to hear Goldy is progressing on his D game tho.

[aGENT]

4 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Cgy doesn’t have a deeper pool. The have more talent in the nhl.  

 

Im guessing you do wonder but I don’t think you actually know why.  It might have something to do with some teams focusing on the draft during their rebuild vs focussing on retooling on the fly.

 

Yep. When you are cornered and got not way to come up with a rebuttal it goes right back to the gifs.  Next time instead of the dog, you might want to use a person waiving the white flag. 

 

Hence the/nhl team part of the comment. 

 

Yup we haven't focused on drafting at all 

 

Nope, pretty sure it just means in bored with your inanity.

[Gollumpus]

32 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Are we though?  Obviously it would be hard to prove since we don't truly know who JB would have taken with those draft picks but out of the 8 picks I mentioned, we have Guddy, Baertschi and Dorsett to show for it.  I think it's pretty debatable to say we are behind, not ahead.

Once again, the team is down two (2) picks in the time Benning has been GM of the Canucks. More notable assets added which involved trading a pick include: Gudbranson, Granlund, Pouliot, Dorsett, Baertschi, Goldobin, Dahlen, and Sutter. Indeed we don't know who Benning would have selected with those picks, but if we are talking a safe bet vs a high risk high reward thing, then I'm okay with this.

 

32 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Based on what?  More high potential talent comes from the draft than traded draft picks for players. 

And how much high potential talent comes from the lower rounds of the draft? Cherry pick to your heart's content.

 

                                                                regards,  G.