[Trade] Kings trade Jake Muzzin to Maple Leafs for Carl Grundstrom, Sean Durzi's rights, 1st-round pick

[JM_]

14 minutes ago, oldnews said:

yeah - a couple key acquisitions - particularly to a bluleine, can really change the complexion of a team.

look closer to home - how does this team fare in the absence of Edler and/or Tanev?  I forces a number of guys to play above their calling.

 

The Leafs finally appear to have gotten over their habit of adding an inadequate depth forward rental at the deadline. 

 

I've been ripping them for years for bizarre moves that don't address their needs.

This is on track with what they've needed to do for some time imo.

I know, I'm depressed about that too. Oh well broken clocks and all that I suppose. 

 

I don't think this is *the final piece* that ensures they get past Tampa, Pittsburgh or Boston for that matter, but if they manage to find one more RHD.... I might need Gravol to watch the playoffs. 

[riffraff]

17 minutes ago, WalkWithElias40 said:

damn 10 million for 7 pts AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Needless to comment on what jay does when he’s not scoring.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

45 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

So to replace a guy that we had signed during our rebuild years, therefore has little to no effect to us long term, the solution is to bring in an even more expensive player signed long term (in what should soon be our contention years) that currently has 7 points in 21 games playing with much better offensive players than we have. Even his 60 point seasons don't scream elite to me.

 

I would take Nylander from them if they give us their next 10 1st round picks (the Luke Schenn special).

Come on now. Nylander is one heck of a hockey player. Sure he got off to a slow start after joining the team late in the year but it’s safe to say he’s a legit top 6 winger. Hes a 22 year old with two 60 point season under his belt and looks to be turning the corner this year with 4 points in his last two games. I’d happily pay to acquire him. He’s far from a negative value even when getting 6.9 aav.. 

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Yeah JB has been good....but would you say your expectations are that if we got a late first round pick that JB would land a Boeser equivalent?  

He missed Pastrnak?

 

Picked Jared McCann in the very pick preceding him.

 

So I believe your point is it is not guaranteed by any stretch. And you would be correct.

[theo5789]

34 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Come on now. Nylander is one heck of a hockey player. Sure he got off to a slow start after joining the team late in the year but it’s safe to say he’s a legit top 6 winger. Hes a 22 year old with two 60 point season under his belt and looks to be turning the corner this year with 4 points in his last two games. I’d happily pay to acquire him. He’s far from a negative value even when getting 6.9 aav.. 

Perhaps I'm being overly harsh, and it is certainly too early in his contract to decide whether it's worth it or not. However, at this point, I wouldn't pay to acquire him (especially what they think he's worth). I also certainly would not want to help them get out of their cap situation which is especially where the "negative value" lies. If they retain cap down to a 5.5 million aav (which they may or may not be able to afford), then he would be closer to his actual value if he regains his 60 point form and would put him back into the positive territory that may net a decent return for them.

[bad alice french]

3 hours ago, 40Dangles said:

They are going to challenge for sure this year now. Muzzin is the type of player they needed for sure. But they’ll lose Gardiners offense next year and he’s he not as bad defensively as Leaf fans harp on him for, most are just bitter from the playoffs. Then you have the issue of Kapannen as well next year. Dubas expected to sign Matthews at the top, then Marner, then Nylander, in that order money wise and was not expecting Kapannen to have this type of year. Now Marner’s agent is going to argue top dollar in the “just below McDavid range” and has legitimate right, Matthews will get McDavid money irrespective of his season, and Kapannen who all figured would get 2 mil or so will now command 4+. Next year leafs are screwed. Yes they can move Nylander but they will be hosed 

I like it!!!

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, riffraff said:

 

I'd give our first this year, in a heartbeat, to get his bloated contract. 

 

Nylander Pettersson Boeser.

 

Boom!

 

 

 

I would pay more. We're not trending where our 1st is a top 6 pick. We would add tremendous speed and agility to our forward core. Become instantly harder to guard due to his speed. That is while he is struggling?

 

Then remind yourself of some of the goals he was scoring at the WC's 2017. He scored 7 goals & 7 assists in ten games against teams like Team Canada. He sliced through teams. Sweden beat Canada in the final, who had Mackinnon, Ryan O'Reilly, Mitch Marner, Scheifele, Jeff Skinner, Tyson Barrie, Claude Giroux. Nylander was tourney MVP > It was not against poor competition.

 

Then think of having his speed and Quinn Hughes added to your team.

 

We can needle Nylander and Toronto for his poor start, no problem. But he is a v good talent we should like to have.

[coryberg]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

He missed Pastrnak?

 

Picked Jared McCann in the very pick preceding him.

 

So I believe your point is it is not guaranteed by any stretch. And you would be correct.

Pastrnak ended up being the best player out of the 12 but McCann is better than the other 10 drafted after that.

[Canuck Surfer]

3 minutes ago, coryberg said:

Pastrnak ended up being the best player out of the 12 but McCann is better than the other 10 drafted after that.

I take Adrian Kempe, but I get your point.

[theo5789]

50 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I'd give our first this year, in a heartbeat, to get his bloated contract. 

 

Nylander Pettersson Boeser.

 

Boom!

 

 

 

I would pay more. We're not trending where our 1st is a top 6 pick. We would add tremendous speed and agility to our forward core. Become instantly harder to guard due to his speed. That is while he is struggling?

 

Then remind yourself of some of the goals he was scoring at the WC's 2017. He scored 7 goals & 7 assists in ten games against teams like Team Canada. He sliced through teams. Sweden beat Canada in the final, who had Mackinnon, Ryan O'Reilly, Mitch Marner, Scheifele, Jeff Skinner, Tyson Barrie, Claude Giroux. Nylander was tourney MVP > It was not against poor competition.

 

Then think of having his speed and Quinn Hughes added to your team.

 

We can needle Nylander and Toronto for his poor start, no problem. But he is a v good talent we should like to have.

There are many players who've had very impressive WJC showings only to have mediocre careers in the NHL (and of course some that do proceed to have very good careers), so I don't reflect back to that to determine how I feel about them today.

 

With that said, I'm not saying Nylander will remain on his 30 point pace and he's surely to bounce back, but even at a 60 point pace, his 6.9 million aav is still bloated IMO. He's only going to have less talent to work with here and I personally don't think he's the type that can help carry the offense, but more of a supporting player. To pay what Toronto likely wants for him and to eat that salary long term while solving Toronto's problem, that doesn't sit well with me.

 

Only way I would consider Nylander is to take him on as a negative value player and hope he blossoms into a PPG guy. I find that it's more of a Bobby Ryan situation where Ryan isn't that bad of a player, just way overpaid. Look at the criticism of Eriksson here who is a fine player in his role, but again just overpaid. For me Nylander might be a decent player, but just not worth his contract.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

Perhaps I'm being overly harsh, and it is certainly too early in his contract to decide whether it's worth it or not. However, at this point, I wouldn't pay to acquire him (especially what they think he's worth).

 

 

Its far to early and way too small of a sample size to make that decision. 

 

Quote

I also certainly would not want to help them get out of their cap situation which is especially where the "negative value" lies. If they retain cap down to a 5.5 million aav (which they may or may not be able to afford), then he would be closer to his actual value if he regains his 60 point form and would put him back into the positive territory that may net a decent return for them.

But that’s the thing they arent shopping him because they feel he’s worth that 60 point or better mark which brings them value. If we actually were interested in him wed be paying a hefty price for him. 

 

A short two month span isn’t going to change anyone in the hockey worlds mind that hes not that player anymore. Again he potted 3 assists his last game against the caps, by the end of feb he could be caught up to Jake. I would take a 22 nylander at 6.9 aav before I take a 33 year old eriksson at 6.0. 

[riffraff]

50 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I'd give our first this year, in a heartbeat, to get his bloated contract. 

 

Nylander Pettersson Boeser.

 

Boom!

 

 

 

I would pay more. We're not trending where our 1st is a top 6 pick. We would add tremendous speed and agility to our forward core. Become instantly harder to guard due to his speed. That is while he is struggling?

 

Then remind yourself of some of the goals he was scoring at the WC's 2017. He scored 7 goals & 7 assists in ten games against teams like Team Canada. He sliced through teams. Sweden beat Canada in the final, who had Mackinnon, Ryan O'Reilly, Mitch Marner, Scheifele, Jeff Skinner, Tyson Barrie, Claude Giroux. Nylander was tourney MVP > It was not against poor competition.

 

Then think of having his speed and Quinn Hughes added to your team.

 

We can needle Nylander and Toronto for his poor start, no problem. But he is a v good talent we should like to have.

Sure ok fine.  All true.

 

my post was in response to @Tom Sestito saying signing 30 year olds in free agency as a bad idea......derptastic.

 

The reality is when beagle and sutter were out and horvat was playing shutdown and we went on a horrific losing streak Willy flamingos underwhelming point production and inept defensive capabilities would not have helped.

 

[PistolPete13]

19 hours ago, Trebreh said:

did tsn/spn show a picture of him in a leaf pajama?!?!?

Found one for you

[theo5789]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Its far to early and way too small of a sample size to make that decision. 

 

But that’s the thing they arent shopping him because they feel he’s worth that 60 point or better mark which brings them value. If we actually were interested in him wed be paying a hefty price for him. 

 

A short two month span isn’t going to change anyone in the hockey worlds mind that hes not that player anymore. Again he potted 3 assists his last game against the caps, by the end of feb he could be caught up to Jake. I would take a 22 nylander at 6.9 aav before I take a 33 year old eriksson at 6.0. 

Teams have to look at these two months and have to wonder if he's one of those guys that coast once they get the big contract. We have seen that time and time again. Just as it's too early to gauge whether his contract is worth it, looking at one 3 point night doesn't change anything either (Eriksson had a 3 point night not long ago too).

 

Eriksson was/is signed during a time when the cap space didn't matter, so even though he hasn't panned out as expected, it isn't costly. If Nylander doesn't produce, he's eating up prime cap space when we may need it most.

 

You would hope that Nylander surpasses Virtanen offensively, but one guy makes 6.9 a year (10 million or something this season) vs 1.25 a year and play completely different roles for their teams.

[Canuck Surfer]

26 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

There are many players who've had very impressive WJC showings only to have mediocre careers in the NHL (and of course some that do proceed to have very good careers), so I don't reflect back to that to determine how I feel about them today.

 

With that said, I'm not saying Nylander will remain on his 30 point pace and he's surely to bounce back, but even at a 60 point pace, his 6.9 million aav is still bloated IMO. He's only going to have less talent to work with here and I personally don't think he's the type that can help carry the offense, but more of a supporting player. To pay what Toronto likely wants for him and to eat that salary long term while solving Toronto's problem, that doesn't sit well with me. 

 

Only way I would consider Nylander is to take him on as a negative value player and hope he blossoms into a PPG guy. I find that it's more of a Bobby Ryan situation where Ryan isn't that bad of a player, just way overpaid. Look at the criticism of Eriksson here who is a fine player in his role, but again just overpaid. For me Nylander might be a decent player, but just not worth his contract.

That was the WC's not WJC's. Against professionals including NHL all stars.

 

He is a good talent. We might even, probably will be buying low. He'll be worth his cap hit. More than a 60 point player. Who brings agility, dangles, speed, the ability to turn not much into a goal. Especially after Toronto already paid him most of the first $10 mill on his pact already. 

 

I do understand the sentiment of not benefitting or rescuing Toronto. I personally don't care. They're the other conference. Not usually our direct competition. And it would make us a better team. I also understand the argument he's not a great defensive player. We're already adding Quinn Hughes & have added Pettersson. We are going to be the type of team that can take chances because we will also cause turnovers. And outscore teams in a track meet. Particularly if we can add a winger as fast as Willie.

 

And I would not mind at all, if another Canadian team won the cup. As long as they don't knock us out.

 

 

[J-P]

1 hour ago, coryberg said:

Pastrnak ended up being the best player out of the 12 but McCann is better than the other 10 drafted after that.

Not saying you’re wrong but I’d take Goldy over McCann as well. Doubt McCann can be more than a 3C, while Goldy with all his defiences still oozes potential. It’s a gamble of course, and the odds are probably 50/50 or worse that Goldy never pans out, but homer or not, that’s the way I see it. 

[theo5789]

6 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

That was the WC's not WJC's. Against professionals including NHL all stars.

 

He is a good talent. We might even, probably will be buying low. He'll be worth his cap hit. More than a 60 point player. Who brings agility, dangles, speed, the ability to turn not much into a goal. Especially after Toronto already paid him most of the first $10 mill on his pact already. 

 

I do understand the sentiment of not benefitting or rescuing Toronto. I personally don't care. They're the other conference. Not usually our direct competition. And it would make us a better team. I also understand the argument he's not a great defensive player. We're already adding Quinn Hughes & have added Pettersson. We are going to be the type of team that can take chances because we will also cause turnovers. And outscore teams in a track meet. Particularly if we can add a winger as fast as Willie.

 

And I would not mind at all, if another Canadian team won the cup. As long as they don't knock us out.

 

 

My bad on the WC/WJC confusion. With that said, Canada that year rode a goaltending trio of Chad Johnson/Calvin Pickard/Eric Comrie. They had a defense that included Mike Matheson and a bunch of decent top 4 guys, but not really any top pairing guys. So while the forwards look better for Canada on paper, the offset on defense and goaltending makes a huge difference.

 

I'm not arguing whether Nylander is a decent player or has attributes that could be successful for us, but depending on the price we have to pay on top of taking on what I believe to be an overpaid contract, I just don't see how it could benefit us long term. We would have to bank on Nylander not only bouncing back, but exceeding his previous form.

 

We have likely given Toronto plenty of opportunities to upgrade their team over the years by selling them our vets for futures, but they've continually tried to lowball us. Who knows how the new management will be, but I don't care for helping them get out of their situation and especially for a gamble that could cripple our long term cap space and rebuild.

[oldnews]

1 hour ago, coryberg said:

Pastrnak ended up being the best player out of the 12 but McCann is better than the other 10 drafted after that.

That's a good list to look at as an example of how misinformed the opinion is that "a 1st" is necessarily a great return on a player like Muzzin - or Tanev.

 

There  is one player in that list that is a good return on Muzzin, maybe one other that is possibly a good principal, but still only partial value.

 

And that is typical of a late 1st in drafts.   People love to tell themselves that a late 1st = a Pastrnak or a Boeser - but the reality is that for the other 6 of those 7 teams that late 1st turns out to be quite a disappointing principal in the end.

 

The value of a pick is the median/mean value - not some fantasy outlier.

 

And the same principal should be applied to people that still whine about 'missing out' on Pastrnak.   Benning followed that draft by landing Boeser in that range - and converted McCann into a principal for Gudbranson, so his batting average is misleading people to grossly over-value picks in that range.

 

L.A. got a 20-25-30% chance of drafting a good player, and lesser odds imo of drafting an equivalent value to what they gave up.  Add to that a couple other longshots and their odds are still not a great risk.   One mitigator is that they may feel they can better assess Grundstrom with the benefit of draft plus years to assess, but still, he'd need to become an NHL top 6 to begin (and is still a less valuable winger) to approach comparable value to Muzzin.

Edited January 30, 2019 by oldnews

[coryberg]

10 minutes ago, J-P said:

Not saying you’re wrong but I’d take Goldy over McCann as well. Doubt McCann can be more than a 3C, while Goldy with all his defiences still oozes potential. It’s a gamble of course, and the odds are probably 50/50 or worse that Goldy never pans out, but homer or not, that’s the way I see it. 

With Mccann's defensive game, his physicality and the fact he plays center I would have to give him the edge over goldy. This is of course my own opinion and I can't fault you or anyone else for liking another player more.

 

My point was more about how mccann wasn't the best player on the board but he wasn't a terrible choice.

[oldnews]

The draft before 2014 the last 10 picks were:

 

Gauthier

Poirier

Burakovsky

Shinkaruk

McCarron

Theodore

Dano

Klimchuk

Dickinson

Hartman

 

Again - one or two players that are reasonable principals for a player like Muzzin...