Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

Are the Canucks becoming NCAA darlings?


fanfor42

Recommended Posts

 

With the impending signing of Quinn Hughes are  the Canucks becoming NCAA darlings?

 

With Hughes signing some of the most promising current Canuck players  are NCAA alum. Hughes Demko Boeser Gaudette even Hutton and Stecher. That may be 6 of the top ten future players on the team.

 

Add prospects Madden and Lockwood as well as a possible top pick  this year and we are starting to  look like NCAA north. 

 

What does this mean? Are the Canucks blazing a trail or is this old news? Does the league head office love this development in s Canadian team?

 

Are the Canucks up there/ leading the way  compared to other NHL teams in terms of top players coming from the NCAA? It is certainly a changing of the guard with NCAA players competing for prominence with the CHL. Are the NCAA players winning?

 

The NCAA wave may well define the future Canucks. We may soon  be hearing from the eastern media how the Canucks abandoned the CHL to chase NCAA players. I say take BP.A.

Cup is a cup and I think Benning and Brackett are tuning in at the right time to ride the NCAA wave.

 

GCG!

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

US scouts haven't been too bad for this organization (extending back to prior management teams).  Laid an egg with Patrick White & Jordan Schroeder though.  

 

Kevin Bieksa (CCHA - NCAA)

Corey Schneider (H-East - NCAA)

RJ Umberger (CCHA - NCAA)

Ryan Kesler (CCHA - NCAA)

Mike Brown (CCHA - NCAA)

Kevin Connaughton (CCHA - NCAA)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it has more to do with the landscape of player development. The last few years you have seen a shift from Canadian dominance. Just look at the past few years top 10 draft picks and you have your answer. In an effort to catch up to Canada, other countries have made major changes to their hockey programs and reaped the benefits. 

 

The NCAA route is also a lot different than the CHL for example. If you're a 4th year CHL player, well you could have a Dane Fox type of year playing against 17 and 18 year olds as a 20-21 year old player. In your 4th year in the NCAA you are playing against many more players your own age. I think that also factors in. Same goes with European players who are playing against 30 year olds much earlier in their careers. 

 

Judd Brackett had a great quote from one of those mic'd up draft videos, talking about drafting NCAA goalies vs CHL goalies. I'm paraphrasing but it was something like "How often do you see a CHL goalie working out late other than Murray? You have more time to develop in the NCAA" They then pick up a NCAA bound goalie in Matthew Theissen. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Baer. said:

Pittsburgh has Guentzel, Rust, Aston-Reese, DeSmith, Blueger all on their roster right now. I think it has more to do with the NCAA developing more as a development league.

Yup. I think currently, something like around 1/3 of NHL players played college hockey. 

 

EDIT: here it is

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/rookie-watch-college-game-growing-path-to-nhl/c-297555930

 

32% of NHL players in 2017 played college hockey. 

 

It was 23% in 2004.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This could be posted in a Utica Comets related thread, but it's topical here, too. The very fact that we rely on college prospects as our primary source of youth-infusion into our lineup is equally telling about the strength of college hockey as it is telling about the weakness of our farm system.

Consider Canucks players on the roster who are 23/24 years old and younger:  

 

 

image.png.040df859ac88f3eee05db3b9ca0f61df.png

 

Boeser, Gaudette, Stetcher (accidentally found his way into his list, despite being 24, but adds to my point) and soon to be Hughes all came from college hockey;

Motte and Goldobin paid their dues primarily in another team's farm system;

Petterson and Horvat bypassed the AHL altogether;

Outside of the goalie in Demko, only Virtanen, Brisebois and MacEwan are products of our AHL system, and the latter two are far from certain to be regular players in the NHL. While Virtanen's status is best debated in another thread, he is more or less the only young player on our roster (along with 24 year old Sautner) that is fundamentally a product of our farm system.

 

Again, not trying to hijack a college thread and make it about the failures of Utica to produce talent and NHL players, but the fact that we rely on college players to produce our talent is the real story here.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, We Are All Cucks said:

This could be posted in a Utica Comets related thread, but it's topical here, too. The very fact that we rely on college prospects as our primary source of youth-infusion into our lineup is equally telling about the strength of college hockey as it is telling about the weakness of our farm system.

Consider Canucks players on the roster who are 23/24 years old and younger:  

 

 

image.png.040df859ac88f3eee05db3b9ca0f61df.png

 

Boeser, Gaudette, Stetcher (accidentally found his way into his list, despite being 24, but adds to my point) and soon to be Hughes all came from college hockey;

Motte and Goldobin paid their dues primarily in another team's farm system;

Petterson and Horvat bypassed the AHL altogether;

Outside of the goalie in Demko, only Virtanen, Brisebois and MacEwan are products of our AHL system, and the latter two are far from certain to be regular players in the NHL. While Virtanen's status is best debated in another thread, he is more or less the only young player on our roster (along with 24 year old Sautner) that is fundamentally a product of our farm system.

 

Again, not trying to hijack a college thread and make it about the failures of Utica to produce talent and NHL players, but the fact that we rely on college players to produce our talent is the real story here.

 

 

Markstrom was also part of that system. Sautner, Brisbois, Juolevi all have promise. I think its a bit hard to criticize our development in Utica in the midst of a rebuild. Judge in 3 years and if those names I mentioned, plus maybe a few others (From recent drafts) don't make the jump, you'll have an argument.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, 40Dangles said:

Markstrom was also part of that system. Sautner, Brisbois, Juolevi all have promise. I think its a bit hard to criticize our development in Utica in the midst of a rebuild. Judge in 3 years and if those names I mentioned, plus maybe a few others (From recent drafts) don't make the jump, you'll have an argument.

Markstrom has played a total of 32 games in Utica over his 5 years with the Canucks, but I think Goalies are a different story altogether, anyways.

 

Juolevi will be interesting to see. However, the same question marks that surround Virtanen surround him. The argument for their slow progress (relative to their high draft choice) is often attributed to drafting mistakes, but could be connected to the "Utica problem". Sure, Brisebois and Sautner could turn out. As could Lind and Gadjovich. And yes, this forever-build is not complete, but we have had enough time to make some current judgements.

 

 

With the results we have now, however, we can see:

 

College hockey --> Boeser, Gaudette (soon to see Hughes)

Utica --> Virtanen (with, Sautner, Brisebois, MacEwan and Juolevi being maybes)

 

The current Canucks team has received - and in the short term is likely to receive - far more from college than from our own farm team. I think that's a fair argument.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, DeltaSwede said:

I think it has more to do with the landscape of player development. The last few years you have seen a shift from Canadian dominance. Just look at the past few years top 10 draft picks and you have your answer. In an effort to catch up to Canada, other countries have made major changes to their hockey programs and reaped the benefits. 

 

The NCAA route is also a lot different than the CHL for example. If you're a 4th year CHL player, well you could have a Dane Fox type of year playing against 17 and 18 year olds as a 20-21 year old player. In your 4th year in the NCAA you are playing against many more players your own age. I think that also factors in. Same goes with European players who are playing against 30 year olds much earlier in their careers. 

 

Judd Brackett had a great quote from one of those mic'd up draft videos, talking about drafting NCAA goalies vs CHL goalies. I'm paraphrasing but it was something like "How often do you see a CHL goalie working out late other than Murray? You have more time to develop in the NCAA" They then pick up a NCAA bound goalie in Matthew Theissen. 

I agree. I'd also like to add that in the last 10-15 years, fitness training, nutrition has really taken a big step up. This is just a theory, but IMO NCAA players get to train better off the ice since they don't play as many games and they get to train the right way, spending a lot of time with the teams trainers etc.. As far as nutrition, being a player in the CHL, a lot of those kids are billeted, they live in other peoples homes so the choice of food they intake may not be necessarily the right meals. Im not saying not all of them eat terribly, but as a college student living independently, they get to choose what meals to take . When you think about it, imagine you're a billet, trying to stay healthy by eating organic veggies, and the family thats billeting you is having pork chops, burgers etc, hard to resist right?

 

But yeah, Judd Brackett's is incredible at finding talent especially in the mid east (his specialty). Its hard enough having to identify guys coming from college to the pros, let alone coming from High school

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, We Are All Cucks said:

Markstrom has played a total of 32 games in Utica over his 5 years with the Canucks, but I think Goalies are a different story altogether, anyways.

 

Juolevi will be interesting to see. However, the same question marks that surround Virtanen surround him. The argument for their slow progress (relative to their high draft choice) is often attributed to drafting mistakes, but could be connected to the "Utica problem". Sure, Brisebois and Sautner could turn out. As could Lind and Gadjovich. And yes, this forever-build is not complete, but we have had enough time to make some current judgements.

 

 

With the results we have now, however, we can see:

 

College hockey --> Boeser, Gaudette (soon to see Hughes)

Utica --> Virtanen (with, Sautner, Brisebois, MacEwan and Juolevi being maybes)

 

The current Canucks team has received - and in the short term is likely to receive - far more from college than from our own farm team. I think that's a fair argument.

Your point was Utica was not doing it’s job, that’s different from we’ll get more players from the NCAA in the short term. 

 

There is a clear reason for that. Many of the prospects in Utica are younger and not used to playing against men. The ncaa players are usually a year or two older and have been playing against men since 19, of course they are more ready. Often the reason to send a player to the AHL is because he needs to physically mature. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, fanfor42 said:

 

With the impending signing of Quinn Hughes are  the Canucks becoming NCAA darlings?

 

With Hughes signing some of the most promising current Canuck players  are NCAA alum. Hughes Demko Boeser Gaudette even Hutton and Stecher. That may be 6 of the top ten future players on the team.

 

Add prospects Madden and Lockwood as well as a possible top pick  this year and we are starting to  look like NCAA north. 

 

What does this mean? Are the Canucks blazing a trail or is this old news? Does the league head office love this development in s Canadian team?

 

Are the Canucks up there/ leading the way  compared to other NHL teams in terms of top players coming from the NCAA? It is certainly a changing of the guard with NCAA players competing for prominence with the CHL. Are the NCAA players winning?

 

The NCAA wave may well define the future Canucks. We may soon  be hearing from the eastern media how the Canucks abandoned the CHL to chase NCAA players. I say take BP.A.

Cup is a cup and I think Benning and Brackett are tuning in at the right time to ride the NCAA wave.

 

GCG!

 

 

 

 

Thatcher Demko played 3 years at Boston College and easily could have just waited to go UFA route.  Probably saw in Vancouver he had a chance to take over goalie reigns since Ryan Miller would be gone and had to compete with Markstrom and Lack at that time.

Brock Boeser played 2 years at North Dakota and signed his ELC, burned a year and now can get his big contract this summer.  Should have been next summer but the incentive to get him to sign and not play a 3rd year at North Dakota (making him eligible to go UFA) was to burn the first year of his ELC in March 2017.

Adam Gaudette (same situation with Boeser), although I think he will be a good serviceable player for Vancouver, I don't think he will be a superstar.  I'm 50/50 on letting him burn the first year.  But if they had any thought of him going UFA route then yes sign him asap.

Hutton was a late pick that turned out well in his first 2 years in Vancouver (they essentially let Corrado go once Hutton made the team) and last year couldn't give him away if they could.  Rebounding well this year we will see how he does come contract time.

Stetcher was an undrafted 4 year NCAA player and wanted to come to Vancouver.

 

I think it has to do more with starting their careers as soon as they can.  So you either hold out for 3 years and pick your team (starting your UFA countdown 2 years later) or you sign with your drafted team (hopefully getting to burn the first year of your ELC).

 

A CHL player can get drafted #1 and the NHL team can decide for (up to 2 years at most I think, definitely 1) to hold you out by sliding the contract so you wouldn't start your UFA countdown until you made the team.

 

Griffen Molino and Troy Stetcher are the only 2 I can think of (I'm sure there is more) NCAA players that wanted to come to Vancouver.  Where as your examples of the drafted players really have no choice (but I hope they don't feel that way obviously) to come to Vancouver.

 

I don't anticipate seeing a lot of the Justin Schultz, Kevin Hayes and Mike Reilly situation anymore.  But I could be wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Central scouting" - and scouting services in general have tended to relatively overlook the USHL and NCAA - relative to the CHL.

 

But I do think that is 'old news' - or at least on the verge of it as more and more teams balance their picks with the quality of prospects coming out of American hockey (including Canadians going to play south of the border).

 

Btw - Gillis landed Tanev through unsigned college FA as well.  And Rathbone might be a guy who works his way onto that list of Canucks prospects via college.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, We Are All Cucks said:

Markstrom has played a total of 32 games in Utica over his 5 years with the Canucks, but I think Goalies are a different story altogether, anyways.

 

34 regular season games, plus 23 playoff games when he led the Comets to the Calder Cup finals

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/9/2019 at 7:10 PM, NewbieCanuckFan said:

US scouts haven't been too bad for this organization (extending back to prior management teams).  Laid an egg with Patrick White & Jordan Schroeder though.  

 

Kevin Bieksa (CCHA - NCAA)

Corey Schneider (H-East - NCAA)

RJ Umberger (CCHA - NCAA)

Ryan Kesler (CCHA - NCAA)

Mike Brown (CCHA - NCAA)

Kevin Connaughton (CCHA - NCAA)

Despite all the hate, everyone scouted Schroeder quite highly. Go read his scouting reports before he was drafted, they were glowing. Yes, probably screwed up his development, but I was okay with the pick. Especially at our draft position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...