[Discussion] When did the Canucks Truly Start Rebuilding?

[Crabcakes]

7 hours ago, aGENT said:

Again, not declaring it wasn't a gong show (or desperate) but they could have moved him for something else like a current NHL player etc but instead moved him for the 9th OA pick, a rebuilding move.

 

 

I've argued for what you're saying myself.  Gillis was finally thinking draft and develop at this time.  He had high hopes for Gaunce (2012) and convinced ownership of the value of owning their own AHL franchise where they would have control over the development of young players.  

 

On the other hand, I agree with @coastal.view,  Schneider was moved because it was too difficult to get a decent deal for Luongo.  Who knows if a Loui deal was nixed by ownership or if the rumoured request of Schneider to be moved is true.  This period really was a cluster-bleep.

 

There is really no reason why Gillis didn't have both purposes in mind.  

 

Kesler did ask to be moved because he could see the team preparing to rebuild and he wanted a shot at a cup.  This, assuming he was truthful when giving this as his reason.  

 

Assuming that Gillis did want to rebuild however, I think that ownership put the brakes on it regardless 

 

What should have started in 2013 probably didn't actually start until 2017 when they moved Burrows and Hansen and Linden actually said the word "rebuild" on the record.

 

[kanucks25]

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Kelser was rumoured by everyone to be headed to pittsburgh but turned the trade down.  that was a rumour that even mckenzie said had legs, ironically the rumoured return at the time was pouliot sutter and a pick.  Yet you continue to say that bonino was the better player than sutter but they have comparable point totals while sutters injury issues started when he came to vancouver (honestly not sure how formerly perfectly healthy workhorses always end up injured while here)

 

https://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/3/1/5460920/nhl-trade-rumors-ryan-kesler-pittsburgh-penguins-vancouver-canucks

None of what you said here refutes anything in my post regarding the Kesler trade.

 

Honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

You're living in a world in which you believe your opinion overrides fact and therefore there are no other alternatives or realities.  I am not naive enough to believe opinion on message boards vs statistical fact and expert analysis

Anyone who didn't think the 2014 team was still a playoff threat has changed their statements since the start of that season 

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-2014-15-preview-vancouver-canucks/

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/2014-15-nhl-season-preview-pacific-division/

 

https://www.tsn.ca/tsn-ca-s-2014-15-nhl-season-preview-vancouver-canucks-1.83819

 

In fact only THN had the Canucks outside of the playoffs from the major analysts.

Did you even read the articles you linked? SNET had us the 17th rank team.

 

None of the articles claim that we're legit Stanley Cup contenders, they all mostly outline how many question marks surround the team.

 

Making the playoffs =/= Stanley Cup threat.

 

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

As for 2 years ago, the Sens were 1 goal away and what did they do?  Revamped major parts of their roster because they were expected to contend again the following year.  Much like the Hawks did, Kings did, Bruins did etc or essentially all of the major contenders over the last decade have done.  Being 2 seasons removed from anything means GMs still have faith as evidenced by the very easily seen moves made by them.  Missing the playoffs once in 8 years and being so shortly removed from such success meant continuing to try with what was available.

 

Which is what happened

The Sens core wasn't as old as our core, most of their key players are still good or even elite today. It made sense for them to not rebuild the next year. The issue was that they played over their heads in their playoff run and they didn't improve going forward (goaltending tanked as well).

 

Anyone who knew anything about our team knew that a major rebuild was needed because the old core simply was no longer a legit Stanley Cup threat.

 

It's not the same.

[Warhippy]

20 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

None of what you said here refutes anything in my post regarding the Kesler trade.

 

Honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Did you even read the articles you linked? SNET had us the 17th rank team.

 

None of the articles claim that we're legit Stanley Cup contenders, they all mostly outline how many question marks surround the team.

 

Making the playoffs =/= Stanley Cup threat.

 

The Sens core wasn't as old as our core, most of their key players are still good or even elite today. It made sense for them to not rebuild the next year. The issue was that they played over their heads in their playoff run and they didn't improve going forward (goaltending tanked as well).

 

Anyone who knew anything about our team knew that a major rebuild was needed because the old core simply was no longer a legit Stanley Cup threat.

 

It's not the same.

Of course.

 

It's not the same.  Never is.  No parallels at all.  Bennings terrible.  Fire the bum and the coach.

 

Motte is just garbage too.  Tonight's game shows it

[kanucks25]

4 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Of course.

 

It's not the same.  Never is.  No parallels at all.  Bennings terrible.  Fire the bum and the coach.

 

Motte is just garbage too.  Tonight's game shows it

Yeah, it isn't the same. But you have no rebuttal other than whatever this is. Can't blame you.

 

Today's game doesn't change my opinion on Motte, nor does it change the statistical case against him.

[canuck73_3]

4 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

What's actually laughable is that you can provide no evidence to the contrary and instead reply with what you just did.

Plays a shut down role and has more goals than Goldobin who has been gifted PP time. 

 

Motte is nowhere near as bad as you claim. 

[kanucks25]

9 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Plays a shut down role and has more goals than Goldobin who has been gifted PP time. 

 

Motte is nowhere near as bad as you claim. 

Gifted PP time? He's on the PP because he has offensive skill, there's a reason Motte isn't used in that role. Goldobin's also 5th in team scoring.

 

Motte isn't used in a shutdown role, he plays under 11 5on5 minutes per game. If he was actually matched up against the other teams top players he would have a lot more minutes and we'd be even more awful.

 

He's not deployed in an offensive role, for sure, but that alone doesn't excuse his production or lack thereof.

[canuck73_3]

5 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

 

 

He's not deployed in an offensive role, for sure, but that alone doesn't excuse his production or lack thereof.

Yet he has more goals than Goldobin with significantly less minutes in all situations. Again he's far from a bad player no matter how much you discredit him. 

[kanucks25]

Just now, canuck73_3 said:

Yet he has more goals than Goldobin with significantly less minutes in all situations. Again he's far from a bad player no matter how much you discredit him. 

Okay? He's still on pace for less than 20 points while struggling defensively. You can find these types of players on waivers or cheap free-agency or, ideally, your farm system.

 

Anyway, don't wanna derail the thread, we can continue on the Motte thread if you please

[kanucks25]

2 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

This weird notion that there was this hard date in which the rebuild officially "started" is asinine. The first significant move towards the rebuild was made on draft day in 2013 when we moved Cory Schneider for the 9th overall pick and used that pick to draft Bo Horvat. Since then we've made significant moves towards both rebuilding and retooling the old core. Whether or not that was the right direction to go is one thing, but there was never a set date in which the "rebuild" officially began. 

Definitely, 'cause it's been a strange mixed bag of moves for more than a handful of years now.

 

That is why some question the "plan" in place. I guess to some it's clear, I see it more as convoluted at best.

 

[combover]

Accidentally 5 years ago,

on purpose they haven’t yet.

That’s why we have only have a couple extra picks in 5 years. #build through the draft. ....right...

The it is what it is era. 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

10 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Have seen some pretty outlandish statements recently about when the team started rebuilding.  Having missed the playoffs only 3 times since 2001 as of 2014.  I firmly believe we didn't start rebuilding until the 2016 draft.  I truly think management believed the team could compete having finished as the 7th best team in the league, 2nd in our division in 2015.  Some in the past even argued no rebuild could truly happen until the twins were gone.

 

What does CDC think?

My opinion only; when we traded Bieksa & Garrison.

 

Yes we did so to afford Sutter. He was, however, younger & would have a longer outlook suiting a rebuild. But Benning had to know ( I hope ) he was leaving our D dangerously thin. Some argue when Kesler was traded? But we received Bonino. And an extra D Sbisa in that deal. Did not hurt our competitive balance at all.  Garrison & Bieksa were probably hard decisions as well. But nobody live replaced them.  Nobody fooled anybody when Janik Weber & Matt Bartkowski were touted as ''new look'' NHL D who could get to pucks faster, and clear the zone? As we were told.

 

But Garrison and Bieksa were old, declining & were not replaced. Neither was Hamhuis, just let go... Then it carried. The wheels were in motion a year later when we traded Burrows and Hansen.  

[Drakrami]

18 hours ago, Warhippy said:

2012 presidents cup winners.

2013 8th overall in league 2nd in pacific

2014 womp

2015 7th overall in the league 2nd in pacific

 

Not so sure that's accurate sir

We were blowout in the 3 playoffs series ever since 2011. We weren't even close to being competitive in those matches. 

[Warhippy]

10 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

Yeah, it isn't the same. But you have no rebuttal other than whatever this is. Can't blame you.

 

Today's game doesn't change my opinion on Motte, nor does it change the statistical case against him.

no

 

I just have no desire to argue or debate with someone who can't seem to want to eve bother trying to see other people's points of view

 

In your camp benning is terrible, everything he;s done is wrong.

 

In the other camp he can do no wrong

 

And for some of us in the middle we can see both sides and have liked and hated him but can get behind what is happening with the team right now.

 

You're effectively the KoS of the anti benning faction which is fine.  But i'd just rather not spend the time anymore

[kanucks25]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

no

 

I just have no desire to argue or debate with someone who can't seem to want to eve bother trying to see other people's points of view

 

In your camp benning is terrible, everything he;s done is wrong.

 

In the other camp he can do no wrong

 

And for some of us in the middle we can see both sides and have liked and hated him but can get behind what is happening with the team right now.

 

You're effectively the KoS of the anti benning faction which is fine.  But i'd just rather not spend the time anymore

I've never said I've hated every move he's made, I've liked some of them.

 

Just don't agree that his overall plan was right. Based on the results thus far, I'm entitled to that opinion.

 

If we win the cup within the next couple years, I'll say I was wrong. Don't think we're even close yet.

[Warhippy]

Just now, kanucks25 said:

I've never said I've hated every move he's made, I've liked some of them.

 

Just don't agree that his overall plan was right. Based on the results thus far, I'm entitled to that opinion.

 

If we win the cup within the next couple years, I'll say I was wrong. Don't think we're even close yet.

And if he gets fired post draft but the team wins the cup with his draft picks and player moves what then

[kanucks25]

38 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

And if he gets fired post draft but the team wins the cup with his draft picks and player moves what then

If we win the Cup with a lot of players that Benning brought in then surely Benning would get some credit, just as Burke/Nonis would have got credit for supplying Gillis with a lot of his Cup team.

 

But there's a big difference between where we are now and what our Cup team would look like, so if it actually happened, that new GM would deserve a lot of credit, too.

[aGENT]

12 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Motte is just garbage too.  Tonight's game shows it

Some people have a mental disconnect with defensive role players and their value to offensive players on a team (particularly to a not very good one that's rebuilding) and how they help create offense' by proxy'. You can see the exact same nonsense with Sutter, Beagle etc.

 

Those guys don't tend to have very shiny stats on the surface, advanced or otherwise, when you ignore the context of their role and usage. Particularly on a poor-middling, rebuilding club that struggles to score and lacks top end depth to play against other team's better players.

 

In that scenario, their job is to limit opposition chances not eliminate them. I mean, guys like Crosby, Ovechkin, Kucherov etc are going to get their chances. But apparently more guys like Goldobin on the team would be better facing up against them because they have 'better' advanced stats 

[JM_]

14 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Some people have a mental disconnect with defensive role players and their value to offensive players on a team (particularly to a not very good one that's rebuilding) and how they help create offense' by proxy'. You can see the exact same nonsense with Sutter, Beagle etc.

 

Those guys don't tend to have very shiny stats on the surface, advanced or otherwise, when you ignore the context of their role and usage. Particularly on a poor-middling, rebuilding club that struggles to score and lacks top end depth to play against other team's better players.

 

In that scenario, their job is to limit opposition chances not eliminate them. I mean, guys like Crosby, Ovechkin, Kucherov etc are going to get their chances. But apparently more guys like Goldobin on the team would be better facing up against them because they have 'better' advanced stats 

don't look now, but Gudbransons stats look much better. 

 

Its like stats on a team sport have context. CONTEXT!!! 

[aGENT]

9 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

don't look now, but Gudbransons stats look much better. 

 

Its like stats on a team sport have context. CONTEXT!!! 

I couldn't be less surprised either.

 

*sigh*

[spook007]

22 hours ago, luckylager said:

Pretty hard to truly rebuild around the twins.

 

This... +1 LL