[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[peaches5]

1 minute ago, oldnews said:

there are better words than that for people like me.

 

anyhow, I'm moving on to things that aren't as much a waste of time as arguing with people who still have their head in the sand where this deal is concerned.

As I said bigot.

[oldnews]

16 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

As I said bigot.

The irony here, is how obstinately devoted you are to your fictitious definition of a "cap dump" = definitions shared by literally no one in the informed hockey world.

Echoed only by other reactive CDCers and canucksmarmy types that shared an axe to gring against anything this management group did - and shouldn't be throwing the term bigot at anyone else.   A term that is typically racially charged and has literally no place in this discussion. "People like you".....

And you've descended to name calling - so save the self-righteousness.

Edited August 20, 2020 by oldnews

[JM_]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

That - and he was/iss suited for a dual role.

He's hard to play against.  He's hard on the puck, he is responsible without it (a natural center), he hits, he wins faceoffs - and he could handle 3rd line type minutes. 

He had 47 points, playing 14:40/game of bottom six, sub 50% ozone start minutes.  He had 42 takeaways.  He's come here - and in spite of our "foundation" and serious wealth of defensive forwards (the value of which should not be underplayed) - Miller has continued to provide a secondary pk option - and a guy that you can use late in games to defend leads, win draws, block shots, etc.  A complete player - and a powerforward - an asset that is very difficult to acquire.

I am surprised by nothing - I expected him to play with EP and uptick - with one exception - I did not expect him to come in and be among the top few in the NHL in faceoff percentage - I think it's reasonable to see an uptick when a guy moves to higher ozone starts (where it's easier to win draws) - but I was not expecting 59.2%.  I guess it does not hurt when you come to a place where you can work day in day out against one of the best faceoff guys in the world - (Beagle) - and work with one of the best shutdown centers in the modern NHL (Malhotra).

its the face-offs that surprised me, that was really unexpected but speaks to how strong of a player he is. 

 

Not to jump ahead too far, but now that this team has taken so many significant steps and learned so much about their individual abilities it makes me wonder how much damage the team can do in the regular season. I expect them to be a very hard team to close out a game on during the regular season now. 

[CanuckCup2022]

6 hours ago, peaches5 said:

He absolutely was a cap dump for Tampa. 

No he wasn't lol.

 

A cap dump is getting rid of a player that is getting paid too much and is underperforming. Typically you must add a sweetener to get rid of a cap dump.

 

JT Miller is a player many teams in the NHL would have traded for but the Canucks are the ones that ponied up.

 

You don't understand the term "cap dump" if you actually believe JT Miller was a cap dump lol.  

 

ie. David Clarkson, Patrick Marleau, etc.

 

EDIT: I see that pretty much everyone here understands what a cap dump is...pretty much....

Edited August 20, 2020 by CanuckCup2022

[CanuckCup2022]

59 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

There is a word for people like you its called bigot.

Edited August 20, 2020 by CanuckCup2022

[peaches5]

9 minutes ago, CanuckCup2022 said:

No he wasn't lol.

 

A cap dump is getting rid of a player that is getting paid too much and is underperforming. Typically you must add a sweetener to get rid of a cap dump.

 

JT Miller is a player many teams in the NHL would have traded for but the Canucks are the ones that ponied up.

 

You don't understand the term "cap dump" if you actually believe JT Miller was a cap dump lol.  

 

ie. David Clarkson, Patrick Marleau, etc.

 

EDIT: I see that pretty much everyone here understands what a cap dump is...pretty much....

No, it's not. A cap dump is a player traded because you need to clear cap space. You have to dump cap in-order to be compliant with the cap. JT Miller was traded to dump cap. He was not going to be traded if Tampa didn't need to get under the cap. The player does not need to have a terrible contract to be considered a cap dump. Everyone knew Tampa had to dump cap which is why they weren't going to get full value for whoever they traded. Vancouver paid a pretty fair deal which is why Tampa did the deal so quickly. 

 

9 minutes ago, CanuckCup2022 said:

You clearly don't know what bigot means.

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, peaches5 said:

Tampa needed to dump cap and JT Miller was the contract they chose to dump.

They chose Miller because they could get the best return due to us making a hockey trade. They had other options that they could've gone with, so I argue that we chose Miller to acquire rather than they picked him to dump.

 

Tampa later traded our 1st plus former 1st rounder Nolan Foote for Blake Coleman. Coleman was having a career year on pace for 44 points while Miller had his "worst" season at the time of the trade at 47 points. So I'd argue that we did indeed pay less to acquire a "cap dump" especially considering Miller had more term and more other positive attributes to his game as well.

 

No matter how you want to spin it, we did well in this trade. The fact that he's been even better than many would've projected is just more gravy.

[shazzam]

No way they trade Miller if not for the cap. They used the 1st they received from us and got a player with a cap 3.2 mill cheaper. This is the cap world, good teams lose good players.

[peaches5]

7 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

They chose Miller because they could get the best return due to us making a hockey trade. They had other options that they could've gone with, so I argue that we chose Miller to acquire rather than they picked him to dump.

 

Tampa later traded our 1st plus former 1st rounder Nolan Foote for Blake Coleman. Coleman was having a career year on pace for 44 points while Miller had his "worst" season at the time of the trade at 47 points. So I'd argue that we did indeed pay less to acquire a "cap dump" especially considering Miller had more term and more other positive attributes to his game as well.

 

No matter how you want to spin it, we did well in this trade. The fact that he's been even better than many would've projected is just more gravy.

They didn't have really have other options. JT Miller was the only one of their top 9 forwards that didn't have a NTC - he actually did but it wasn't kicking in until July 1. I do agree they decided to trade Miller because of what they were getting and they were never going to get that from one of the players they would have to try and force to waive their NTC which they may not have done... That said it doesn't change the fact he was traded to free up cap space which makes it a cap dump trade. 

[theo5789]

15 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

They didn't have really have other options. JT Miller was the only one of their top 9 forwards that didn't have a NTC - he actually did but it wasn't kicking in until July 1. I do agree they decided to trade Miller because of what they were getting and they were never going to get that from one of the players they would have to try and force to waive their NTC which they may not have done... That said it doesn't change the fact he was traded to free up cap space which makes it a cap dump trade. 

Palat and Johnson were in the same boat where their NTC kicked in on July 1st. They certainly had other options. I think they probably had the price on Johnson too high and the Palat was closer to where they would've had to add something to move him as he didn't return enough value back to a team helping them out.

 

They made the trade to free up cap, they weren't dumping him. The connotation of "cap dump" comes with a negative tone in which you seem to be trying to portray.

 

With that said, I've explained that even if you want to call it a "cap dump", we technically got "cap dump" value on a very good player as Tampa paid more for a lesser player. We weren't going to be able to make the trade we did for any less, otherwise they probably would've passed and looked for other options (surely if they were going to move Nolan Foote anyway, they would've attached him an actual "cap dump" and saved themselves from losing Miller in which they didn't want to in the first place). I imagine they would've preferred to move Palat out instead.

[theo5789]

2 hours ago, oldnews said:

That - and he was/iss suited for a dual role.

He's hard to play against.  He's hard on the puck, he is responsible without it (a natural center), he hits, he wins faceoffs - and he could handle 3rd line type minutes. 

He had 47 points, playing 14:40/game of bottom six, sub 50% ozone start minutes.  He had 42 takeaways.  He's come here - and in spite of our "foundation" and serious wealth of defensive forwards (the value of which should not be underplayed) - Miller has continued to provide a secondary pk option - and a guy that you can use late in games to defend leads, win draws, block shots, etc.  A complete player - and a powerforward - an asset that is very difficult to acquire.

I am surprised by nothing - I expected him to play with EP and uptick - with one exception - I did not expect him to come in and be among the top few in the NHL in faceoff percentage - I think it's reasonable to see an uptick when a guy moves to higher ozone starts (where it's easier to win draws) - but I was not expecting 59.2%.  I guess it does not hurt when you come to a place where you can work day in day out against one of the best faceoff guys in the world - (Beagle) - and work with one of the best shutdown centers in the modern NHL (Malhotra).

It's funny because there was a poll in the offseason wondering if it would be Ferland or Miller on the top line with Petey and Boeser. The large majority was suggesting Ferland because he would "police" the line. There were a few of us that actually were clamouring that Miller should be there because of his ability to play center to support Petey, had better career offensive numbers than Ferland, and was also physical enough to play the protector role if needed.

 

There were so many people that had no clue who Miller was and what he brought to the table, but they just wanted to jump the shark after reading the media trolls talking about cap dumps, 3rd line player and declining offense.

 

What actually has been surprising for me is his leadership. That was something that I didn't expect and is hard to get any numbers on, so it's something you don't see unless you really watch/scout the players. I was expecting an uptick in points, but was thinking more like a 65 point guys, so he also surpassed that expectation as well (on top of what you've mentioned on his faceoff prowess).

[PhillipBlunt]

What about the first rounder? Oh sweet merciful lord! Please won’t someone tell me!!!!!

[theo5789]

16 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

What about the first rounder? Oh sweet merciful lord! Please won’t someone tell me!!!!!

Email jd.burke@clueless.ca to get your answer to that.

[peaches5]

1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

Palat and Johnson were in the same boat where their NTC kicked in on July 1st. They certainly had other options. I think they probably had the price on Johnson too high and the Palat was closer to where they would've had to add something to move him as he didn't return enough value back to a team helping them out.

 

They made the trade to free up cap, they weren't dumping him. The connotation of "cap dump" comes with a negative tone in which you seem to be trying to portray.

 

With that said, I've explained that even if you want to call it a "cap dump", we technically got "cap dump" value on a very good player as Tampa paid more for a lesser player. We weren't going to be able to make the trade we did for any less, otherwise they probably would've passed and looked for other options (surely if they were going to move Nolan Foote anyway, they would've attached him an actual "cap dump" and saved themselves from losing Miller in which they didn't want to in the first place). I imagine they would've preferred to move Palat out instead.

Palat and Johnson NTC kicked in the year before in 2018-19 J.T. Millers NTC kicked in in 2019-20. He was traded in June weeks before it officially kicked in. There is no way TB trades JT Miller if Palat and Johnson don't have NTC's.

Cap dump comes from trading a player because 'you have to' because of salary reasons.. You are dumping cap.. What you get in exchange doesn't determine whether or not it's a cap dump or not. It's like if we traded Eriksson and got a second round pick for him by people's logic in this thread that would not be a cap dump.. it absolutely would be. 

[theo5789]

31 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

Palat and Johnson NTC kicked in the year before in 2018-19 J.T. Millers NTC kicked in in 2019-20. He was traded in June weeks before it officially kicked in. There is no way TB trades JT Miller if Palat and Johnson don't have NTC's.

Cap dump comes from trading a player because 'you have to' because of salary reasons.. You are dumping cap.. What you get in exchange doesn't determine whether or not it's a cap dump or not. It's like if we traded Eriksson and got a second round pick for him by people's logic in this thread that would not be a cap dump.. it absolutely would be. 

My bad on the NTCs, you're right about that. If they really wanted to keep Miller, they would've gone through the process of requesting, but I guess Miller was the easiest to trade from that standpoint.

 

I guess if you want to be right on semantics, then sure he was a "cap dump". I think many of us see the difference though. At the end of the day, we still got "cap dump" value for Miller due to him being a better quality of return than a cap dump of a less useful player.

[peaches5]

59 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

My bad on the NTCs, you're right about that. If they really wanted to keep Miller, they would've gone through the process of requesting, but I guess Miller was the easiest to trade from that standpoint.

 

I guess if you want to be right on semantics, then sure he was a "cap dump". I think many of us see the difference though. At the end of the day, we still got "cap dump" value for Miller due to him being a better quality of return than a cap dump of a less useful player.

That's the thing though. All their forwards signed to contracts except JT Miller have FULL NTC so the only way they could forcibly move them is if they threatened to waive them like Tampa did with Boyle way back in the day. JT Miller was really the only guy they could move of the forwards. Tampa was cap strapped and the only player they could really move was JT MIller. They had to dump Miller in order to get under the cap. If Tampa was not up against the cap JT Miller would not be a Canuck.

 

All these are signs of a cap dump trade. For people to sit there and say this is not a cap dump trade and then refuse to read my posts because I have pointed out how in fact is a cap dump trade is laughable and bigoted. 

[zimmy]

1 hour ago, peaches5 said:

That's the thing though. All their forwards signed to contracts except JT Miller have FULL NTC so the only way they could forcibly move them is if they threatened to waive them like Tampa did with Boyle way back in the day. JT Miller was really the only guy they could move of the forwards. Tampa was cap strapped and the only player they could really move was JT MIller. They had to dump Miller in order to get under the cap. If Tampa was not up against the cap JT Miller would not be a Canuck.

 

All these are signs of a cap dump trade. For people to sit there and say this is not a cap dump trade and then refuse to read my posts because I have pointed out how in fact is a cap dump trade is laughable and bigoted. 

I’m going to take what is probably an ill advised leap into this ridiculous spat and make an assumption as to your definition of bigotry. So, I will ask respectfully, how are you not acting in an obstinate and superior manner in dealing with others opinions on this subject? How are your retorts and not so subtle lecturing not bigoted as well? Where is your level of tolerance? Or is it that only you can be right?
 

An aside. The use of cap dump in this context is usually levelled as a condimnation of management. As in JB got taken to the cleaners or at least could have done so much better than offering the assets he did to a team that was being forced into a position they did not want to be in. Maybe you’ve been clear on your analysis of the value of the trade. I haven’t read back far enough.

And no, I would not consider Louie Eriksson for a second rounder a cap dump. That is not a deal characterized by panic and need. It would be a miracle.

[peaches5]

11 minutes ago, zimmy said:

I’m going to take what is probably an ill advised leap into this ridiculous spat and make an assumption as to your definition of bigotry. So, I will ask respectfully, how are you not acting in an obstinate and superior manner in dealing with others opinions on this subject? How are your retorts and not so subtle lecturing not bigoted as well? Where is your level of tolerance? Or is it that only you can be right?
 

An aside. The use of cap dump in this context is usually levelled as a condimnation of management. As in JB got taken to the cleaners or at least could have done so much better than offering the assets he did to a team that was being forced into a position they did not want to be in. Maybe you’ve been clear on your analysis of the value of the trade. I haven’t read back far enough.

And no, I would not consider Louie Eriksson for a second rounder a cap dump. That is not a deal characterized by panic and need. It would be a miracle.

I am not being intolerant towards someone opinion. I have acknowledged and disagreed with it and then provided my opinion on it which is backed up with valid factual points. and then to be told oh I am not going to read your posts because of a differencing opinion is the literal definition of a bigot.

 

That is an opinion, bolded part. It is not factual and disagreeing with that and explaining why does not make me a bigot but not accepting my opinion on it and then refusing to read my posts because of my opinion on it is bigoted. 

 

This has nothing to do with the value of the trade it has to do with the fact Tampa had to dump cap and JT Miller was the only person they could really move. Everyone else has full NTC's. They didn't want to trade JT Miller they had to dump his salary to get compliant. Not a hard concept to understand but apparently it is for most here. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by peaches5

[zimmy]

28 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

I am not being intolerant towards someone opinion. I have acknowledged and disagreed with it and then provided my opinion on it which is backed up with valid factual points. and then to be told oh I am not going to read your posts because of a differencing opinion is the literal definition of a bigot.

 

That is an opinion, bolded part. It is not factual and disagreeing with that and explaining why does not make me a bigot but not accepting my opinion on it and then refusing to read my posts because of my opinion on it is bigoted. 

 

This has nothing to do with the value of the trade it has to do with the fact Tampa had to dump cap and JT Miller was the only person they could really move. Everyone else has full NTC's. They didn't want to trade JT Miller they had to dump his salary to get compliant. Not a hard concept to understand but apparently it is for most here. 

So, you are happy with the “cap dump” in this scenario? What was ceded and what was received? Did Jim do it right or because it was a “cap dump” did he blow it? Will you be satisfied when this transaction is universally referred to as a “cap dump”? I’m wondering all this because something clearly triggered/angered/disturbed you enough to make this into a thing, while the rest of us simpletons were just happy with the player we received.

[peaches5]

1 hour ago, zimmy said:

So, you are happy with the “cap dump” in this scenario? What was ceded and what was received? Did Jim do it right or because it was a “cap dump” did he blow it? Will you be satisfied when this transaction is universally referred to as a “cap dump”? I’m wondering all this because something clearly triggered/angered/disturbed you enough to make this into a thing, while the rest of us simpletons were just happy with the player we received.

I made this into a thing? I called the trade a cap dump, which it is, and then all of you made it a thing and then one poster refused to read my post because of my opinion which makes them a bigot. People started replying to my posts saying how am I not a bigot and I explained it to them. It has nothing to do with what was received or how I feel about the trade. All it had to was with the terminology being used and people here can't accept when someone doesn't share their opinion. 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by peaches5