[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[D.B Cooper]

4 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Yeah and Tampa is in a cap crunch with JT Miller regressing to 47 pts and playing on the 3rd line....but teams like LA have cap space and may have been interested... Tampa only knows....so let's negotiate.

Hahahaha

Miller wasn’t regressing.  He was taken out of a top 6 spot and put in more of a checking role because of Tbays glute of forwards.     Nice try.   
They had plenty of options to get under the cap.  
Only dumb dumbs thought Miller was a cap dump.   
 

[Pete M]

7 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

Hahahaha

Miller wasn’t regressing.  He was taken out of a top 6 spot and put in more of a checking role because of Tbays glute of forwards.     Nice try.   
They had plenty of options to get under the cap.  
Only dumb dumbs thought Miller was a cap dump.   
 

Hind sight is 20/20,  his numbers showed he regressed in point production....at the time, his numbers can be questioned in negotiation.

 

If no teams offered a 1st, then a compelling case can be made around his numbers at the time of negotiation...unless Tampa showed JB other offers that they had in their bag. If not, let the poker game begin.

 

Leverage is also a beautiful thing, I wise negotiator has a few irons in the fire....however, JT might have been the most desirable....at anytime, a negotiator should be willing to consider his other irons in the fire. If JB had no other irons in the fire, then he had no leverage.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Pete M

[Pete M]

Definition of freedom is to maximize your options....same as in negotiaton, you enter with your options maximized...a good GM has his options maximized before negotiation begins.

 

In other words, the kid in the candy store shouldn't get focused on the first candy he sees.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Pete M

[D.B Cooper]

19 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Hind sight is 20/20,  his numbers showed he regressed in point production....at the time, his numbers can be questioned in negotiation.

 

If no teams offered a 1st, then a compelling case can be made around his numbers at the time of negotiation...unless Tampa showed JB other offers that they had in their bag. If not, let the poker game begin.

 

Leverage is also a beautiful thing, I wise negotiator has a few irons in the fire....however, JT might have been the most desirable....at anytime, a negotiator should be willing to consider his other irons in the fire. If JB had no other irons in the fire, then he had no leverage.

No hindsight needed here.  
If someone is playing top 6 minutes in an offensive role, then gets put in a defensive role because of insane forward depth, it is expected your points will drop a bit.  
No one in the league, or anyone who watches a lot of hockey, thought he was regressing.   

[Pete M]

1 minute ago, drummerboy said:

No hindsight needed here.  
If someone is playing top 6 minutes in an offensive role, then gets put in a defensive role because of insane forward depth, it is expected your points will drop a bit.  
No one in the league, or anyone who watches a lot of hockey, thought he was regressing.   

now that is an all knowing statement....even though his numbers showed a regression, there was still a small amount of doubt that could be used as part of negotiation in order to dampen Tampa's position.

[CanuckCup2022]

2 hours ago, drummerboy said:

Please tell me more about how JB is in trade meetings.  
It’s great to hear from someone who is obviously right there in the negotiations. 

Excellent post.

 

For all we know, Tampa asked for a 1st and a 2nd and JB got it down to the 3rd.

 

lol....lots of people assuming the worst on here.

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, Pete M said:

now that is an all knowing statement....even though his numbers showed a regression, there was still a small amount of doubt that could be used as part of negotiation in order to dampen Tampa's position.

There is also the risk that you play the negotiation game and they decide to explore other options and you lose your target player. Sometimes you assess the value and if you're comfortable making the deal, then you go for it rather than missing out altogether. A 3rd is not something that I would be crying over considering the percentages of the pick working out. Another example to demonstrate this is the Toffoli trade. Many are upset about losing Madden, but look at the other deadline day deals. We actually got very good value for arguably the best "rental" at the time because we made the move early and didn't play games and wait (also we didn't want to announce Boeser's injury before making the deal having us lose leverage), whereas if we did, a bidding war may have started and bumped up his trade value. In today's NHL, most teams make hockey trades and it's rare that GMs are looking to fleece one another.

 

It's also feasible that they wanted a prospect back or a 2nd and we did indeed negotiate it down.

 

 

[Pete M]

58 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

There is also the risk that you play the negotiation game and they decide to explore other options and you lose your target player. Sometimes you assess the value and if you're comfortable making the deal, then you go for it rather than missing out altogether. A 3rd is not something that I would be crying over considering the percentages of the pick working out. Another example to demonstrate this is the Toffoli trade. Many are upset about losing Madden, but look at the other deadline day deals. We actually got very good value for arguably the best "rental" at the time because we made the move early and didn't play games and wait (also we didn't want to announce Boeser's injury before making the deal having us lose leverage), whereas if we did, a bidding war may have started and bumped up his trade value. In today's NHL, most teams make hockey trades and it's rare that GMs are looking to fleece one another.

 

It's also feasible that they wanted a prospect back or a 2nd and we did indeed negotiate it down.

 

 

100% ....this is what I guessed happened...whether they needed to throw in a 3rd or not....they got the player they wanted.

[theo5789]

22 minutes ago, Pete M said:

100% ....this is what I guessed happened...whether they needed to throw in a 3rd or not....they got the player they wanted.

Well I don't think it was a "throw-in" because that just makes it sounds like Benning simply gave that to them for no good reason. Perhaps they could've negotiated down (if that wasn't already a negotiated deal already), but a 3rd isn't much to worry over considering the odds of that pick being a significant player.

[D.B Cooper]

This idea of just ‘throwing in picks’ is so ignorant.
Do people really think that Benning is just some dumbass that just bends over and gives up whatever is asked?   
The man has been in the league for decades, has won a cup, and has made his way up to being an NHL GM.  (Only 31 people in the world have that job). 
 

Sure, he took a couple swings and missed over the years.  Who hasn’t?    
He has also taken an old dog poo team to being a young, exciting up and comer.  
Not to mention it is not just him, but a whole team of scouts and what not.  
 

The price we paid for JT is more than fine. 
If you watched the guy play at all in the last couple years, you’d know this wasn’t even much of a gamble.  

[D.B Cooper]

1 hour ago, Pete M said:

100% ....this is what I guessed happened...whether they needed to throw in a 3rd or not....they got the player they wanted.

You know what.  I bet you are right.  
JB waited until they had a deal done and decided “ Hey, this was a real pleasure dealing with you. Here is a 3rd round pick on the house.”  
Kinda like tipping at a restaurant. Because JB is a total idiot and thinks that is how it works.  Right?

[Gawdzukes]

42 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

You know what.  I bet you are right.  
JB waited until they had a deal done and decided “ Hey, this was a real pleasure dealing with you. Here is a 3rd round pick on the house.”  
Kinda like tipping at a restaurant. Because JB is a total idiot and thinks that is how it works.  Right?

Sums up his logic perfectly. 

[Drakrami]

On 7/10/2020 at 11:37 PM, drummerboy said:

Hahahaha

Miller wasn’t regressing.  He was taken out of a top 6 spot and put in more of a checking role because of Tbays glute of forwards.     Nice try.   
They had plenty of options to get under the cap.  
Only dumb dumbs thought Miller was a cap dump.   
 

You really aren't high in the IQ area are you? The only reason Lightning traded Miller was because he was expendable and a dump. 

 

Lightning have been trying to go all-in and win a Stanley Cup the past 5 years.. You think if Miller was this superstar they valued highly, they would have let him go? Don't even use your head before your post. Miller is a cap dump which we traded highly for but it worked out beautifully at the end. As simple as that. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Drakrami

[CanuckCup2022]

5 hours ago, Drakrami said:

You really aren't high in the IQ area are you? The only reason Lightning traded Miller was because he was expendable and a dump. 

 

Lightning have been trying to go all-in and win a Stanley Cup the past 5 years.. You think if Miller was this superstar they valued highly, they would have let him go? Don't even use your head before your post. Miller is a cap dump which we traded highly for but it worked out beautifully at the end. As simple as that. 

JT Miller was not a cap dump. Cap dump refers to a useless (or medicore) player that has a stupid CAP like Loui Ericksson. JT Miller was a very good player that got squeezed out because of too many bodies. It was a HOCKEY trade.

 

JT Miller has 72 points this season which is more than any player on Tampa (including Stamkos, Point, etc) except Kucherov.

 

With your line of thinking, if Vancouver traded Boeser he would be a cap dump. That is laughable. In the hypothetical Boeser trade, Brock would be traded from a position of strength (wing) for an upgrade in a position of weakness (D).

[D.B Cooper]

6 hours ago, Drakrami said:

You really aren't high in the IQ area are you? The only reason Lightning traded Miller was because he was expendable and a dump. 

 

Lightning have been trying to go all-in and win a Stanley Cup the past 5 years.. You think if Miller was this superstar they valued highly, they would have let him go? Don't even use your head before your post. Miller is a cap dump which we traded highly for but it worked out beautifully at the end. As simple as that. 

Well.  That was a nice, overly aggressive post.  
 

You are totally right.   Miller sucks and was a cap dump.   
He wasn’t stuck behind the depth of one of the greatest offensive lineups seen in years.   Not at all.  
He went from up and comer, to a 24 year old bust/cap dump in one season.  
 

There was ZERO scouting on him, the whole league knew he was garbage, and we 100% lucked out that Petey was able to drag him out of the hole he put himself in.  
 

Personally, I hate him, and myself for thinking different of you.  

I will try to do better. 
Im sorry, person I’ve never noticed on these boards.  With such amazing posts like yours above, and being here so long, it’s amazing that I’ve never payed attention to you.   850 + with over 1400 posts in all those years.   Looks like no one else really cares what you have to say either.   That’s too bad.  
You are a cap dump   

[theo5789]

9 hours ago, Drakrami said:

You really aren't high in the IQ area are you? The only reason Lightning traded Miller was because he was expendable and a dump. 

 

Lightning have been trying to go all-in and win a Stanley Cup the past 5 years.. You think if Miller was this superstar they valued highly, they would have let him go? Don't even use your head before your post. Miller is a cap dump which we traded highly for but it worked out beautifully at the end. As simple as that. 

 

Yes moving his cap was beneficial in getting their team in compliance to start the season, but he was not a player that they wanted to lose. They later used our pick (on top of adding a highly touted prospect in Nolan Foote) to try and get a supposed cheaper version of Miller in Coleman. They paid a higher price than we did to replace a player they wished they could've kept.

 

Could we have played hardball to try and take advantage of their situation? Possibly, but that runs the risk of losing out on the player altogether. We made a deal that benefitted both sides and thus a hockey trade, which is more common now (there is an article about it somewhere). We clearly paid less to acquire the better player, so clearly we actually got the upper hand in value (the season Miller had is simply gravy at this point).

 

This was also demonstrated in the Toffoli trade. Toffoli cost cheaper than Coleman (and was the best player traded at the deadline), but Coleman has an extra year on a good contract. Miller had 4 years on a good contract when we traded for him as well, which is further added value to us. So yes Miller was expendable to them (aren't all trades of players that were deemed expendable?), but he was far from a useless dump.

[iinatcc]

I now officially approve this trade 

Edited August 8, 2020 by iinatcc

[73 Percent]

So they officially get this years pick. That they then traded to NJ lol.

[JM_]

2 hours ago, 73 Percent said:

So they officially get this years pick. That they then traded to NJ lol.

cap friendly has it listed as the 13th oa. 

 

I wonder how many people are still arguing that Miller isn't worth that? Interestingly Miller was a 15th oa in 2011. 

[73 Percent]

3 minutes ago, Robert Long said:

cap friendly has it listed as the 13th oa. 

 

I wonder how many people are still arguing that Miller isn't worth that? Interestingly Miller was a 15th oa in 2011. 

For now.