[Rumour] Puljujarvi to play in Finland until he is traded

[VIC_CITY]

41 minutes ago, Kobayashi Maru said:

To me the bar is the offersheet.  Likely just a 3rd with the salary up to 2.1m.  Seems like the easiest approach to me.  3 year 2.1m per year offer sheet.  

Ya, but you can't assume Edmonton won't match, especially at $2.1M. That's not really anything to worry about. Whatever you think they'll do, assume the opposite, it's Edmonton! That's a risk Puljujarvi might not want to take. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by VIC_CITY

[oldnews]

4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Has Pulli really sunk that low, that all we would have to pay is Goldy?

 

Still going to take more than that, a solid asset IMO for what lingering sense of potential is still there.

how low is that though?  I don't know what 'we'd have to pay' - I'm just putting what is a realistic limit/price for this franchise (imo of course) -and looking at additional factors - like Puljujaarvi refusing to play there, further weakening their leverage with respect to his market value.

Goldobin may not yet be proven - but not  a write-off either (27 pts in 63 games is not bad), particularly when he had next to no puck luck last year (his numbers imo are deflated)- it's his overall game that still needs to progress, but he unquestionably has NHL talent if he applies himself.   So - that said - I'd argue that he somewhat still maintains his draft odds/value - guys drafted in that range (late 1st) typicallly have a 20-30% of being an NHL asset - Goldy is probably stiill in that range.    Puljujaarvi - is worth what he's worth in the present - his draft pedigree is significantly higher than his development trajectory to date.   Is Goldobin a 'reasonable' price for him?  Is a debatable question.  On the one hand, the Coil have hung onto assets like him in the past, with no realistic development structure to see them turn it around and succeed - and have wound up dumping a 1st overall like Yakupov, for example, for a 3rd round pick.  Is Puljujaarvi there at this point?  Probably not - but Goldy isn't a 3rd round pick either - he's a talented guy that would be going to a team desperate for winger scoring.... 

I don't know how low JP's value has gotten, but he's not necessarily an organizational need, or maintaining stable market value, so I can't see paying a great deal more....perhaps something like Baertschi and Goldobin if the Coil throw in Benson as well.

Edited August 10, 2019 by oldnews

[Provost]

I think Goldobin might be a low return that would be beat by offers from a lot of teams.

 

Maybe Baertschi and Goldobin is closer.  Edmonton need scoring off the wings, and Baertschi is an established guy, albeit with health risks attached.  Goldobin is a complete wildcard, he could gel and look amazing (at least in the short term) with Edmonton’s stud centres... or he could flame out in training camp and get claimed on waivers, bouncing around until he runs out of chances.

 

As much as Holland can say he won’t give the guy away, they are a team that can’t afford to leave an asset marinating in Europe that can return them something that helps them today.  They can pretend they aren’t in crisis mode, but a year or two more of sitting at the bottom of the standings and that team implodes.  They have to show “some” improvement this season and be sniffing at the playoffs.

 

For us,  Baertschi is a useful winger who can play all over the lineup... but he is going to get less opportunity going forward with the extra forwards we have in the mix.  Pulujarvi has a much higher ceiling than Baertschi, but also a risk of never being a regular NHLer.

[BigTramFan]

15 hours ago, theo5789 said:

If you were in the same situation as Edmonton, would Goldy and a 3rd be enough?  

 

If I was Holland, I'm not taking scraps for him and especially not so to a divisional rival.

 

If teams are trading for him, he's not going to want to stay in Finland. He's only doing this as a power move to try and get what he wants. I forget the rule, but he would have to be signed by a certain date of he's to be played this season and I rather have the guys currently in our system step into any injury fill in spots rather than throw in a guy who wouldn't have even have had one practice with us and learn our systems in this scenario.

No I don’t think EDM will trade with VAN. Too much risk that JP becomes a great player!

 

But Goldy + 3rd round pick is fair value for both sides. And JB should make the offer. I don’t consider this offer to be “scraps” because JP hasn’t proven a thing at this level.

 

We can absolutely keep him in Finland until next season and that may not be a bad thing for his development and allowing him time to mentally reset.

 

Just FYI, if we decided we want him to play this season in VAN then we would need to sign him before Dec.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, BigTramFan said:

No I don’t think EDM will trade with VAN. Too much risk that JP becomes a great player!

 

But Goldy + 3rd round pick is fair value for both sides. And JB should make the offer. I don’t consider this offer to be “scraps” because JP hasn’t proven a thing at this level.

 

We can absolutely keep him in Finland until next season and that may not be a bad thing for his development and allowing him time to mentally reset.

 

Just FYI, if we decided we want him to play this season in VAN then we would need to sign him before Dec.

JP can’t play without the puck in an offensive situation.  He’s a terrible player, who has very little value.  

[theo5789]

3 minutes ago, BigTramFan said:

No I don’t think EDM will trade with VAN. Too much risk that JP becomes a great player!

 

But Goldy + 3rd round pick is fair value for both sides. And JB should make the offer. I don’t consider this offer to be “scraps” because JP hasn’t proven a thing at this level.

 

We can absolutely keep him in Finland until next season and that may not be a bad thing for his development and allowing him time to mentally reset.

 

Just FYI, if we decided we want him to play this season in VAN then we would need to sign him before Dec.

If there's a risk that JP becomes a great player then how does Goldy and a 3rd negate that risk? Goldy is just as much of a project and a 3rd doesn't mean much for a recent 4th overall pick. Goldy is actually older and his resume is no better than Puljujarvi.

 

We can keep him in Finland, but that's not what he wants. He's only playing the Finland card to try and force a trade out of Edmonton. Whichever team acquires him will be getting him to play in the NHL (especially at the cost to acquire him). If we force him to stay in Finland for a year, then how is that any different than Edmonton simply letting him toil for a year there and see if he wants to come back? He will ask for a trade again if we aren't getting him to the NHL.

[Me_]

22 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

If there's a risk that JP becomes a great player then how does Goldy and a 3rd negate that risk? Goldy is just as much of a project and a 3rd doesn't mean much for a recent 4th overall pick. Goldy is actually older and his resume is no better than Puljujarvi.

 

We can keep him in Finland, but that's not what he wants. He's only playing the Finland card to try and force a trade out of Edmonton. Whichever team acquires him will be getting him to play in the NHL (especially at the cost to acquire him). If we force him to stay in Finland for a year, then how is that any different than Edmonton simply letting him toil for a year there and see if he wants to come back? He will ask for a trade again if we aren't getting him to the NHL.

I think he’d thrive here.

[BigTramFan]

18 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

NIf there's a risk that JP becomes a great player then how does Goldy and a 3rd negate that risk? Goldy is just as much of a project and a 3rd doesn't mean much for a recent 4th overall pick. Goldy is actually older and his resume is no better than Puljujarvi.

 

We can keep him in Finland, but that's not what he wants. He's only playing the Finland card to try and force a trade out of Edmonton. Whichever team acquires him will be getting him to play in the NHL (especially at the cost to acquire him). If we force him to stay in Finland for a year, then how is that any different than Edmonton simply letting him toil for a year there and see if he wants to come back? He will ask for a trade again if we aren't getting him to the NHL.

 

28 minutes ago, Alflives said:

JP can’t play without the puck in an offensive situation.  He’s a terrible player, who has very little value.  

Funny the extreme difference of opinion on this one.

 

I think JP is a project. A worthwhile one. And I haven’t changed my opinion that he is worth Goldy + 3rd.

 

I don’t think EDM will trade him to VAN.

 

How is it different to him staying in Finland and then coming back to the Oilers next season? Because he wouldn’t be coming back to the Oilers, he would be joining VAN. A young up and coming roster that saw his potential, made an effort to trade for him and took him out of the crap environment in EDM, and will give him a chance to develop and become a decent player.

[theo5789]

8 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

 

Funny the extreme difference of opinion on this one.

 

I think JP is a project. A worthwhile one. And I haven’t changed my opinion that he is worth Goldy + 3rd.

 

I don’t think EDM will trade him to VAN.

 

How is it different to him staying in Finland and then coming back to the Oilers next season? Because he wouldn’t be coming back to the Oilers, he would be joining VAN. A young up and coming roster that saw his potential, made an effort to trade for him and took him out of the crap environment in EDM, and will give him a chance to develop and become a decent player.

I think Puljujarvi is a worthwhile project as well. I just don't think Goldy and a 3rd would get it done whether it's a trade to a divisional rival or not. If that's the best they can do, if I were in Edmonton's shoes, I'd simply call his bluff and let him play in Finland and re-evaluate. I imagine he rather play in the NHL. His issue appears to be a personal conflict with the team/player so I don't know if it's something that can be resolved, but it's not a case where they should feel a need to sell low. If they give in to the player, then that'll set a precedent (see Nylander and how that has affected their RFAs and seemingly around the league as well). He should be here playing and giving the team the value to move him if that is his true desire rather than play this game and may even scare teams off with this out tactic that he could pull anytime (just like how many fear Russian players).

 

Edmonton is/was also a young and upcoming team. Puljujarvi likely wants a full time spot in the NHL. He doesn't want to play in Finland, let alone an entire year. It's like suggesting we send Juolevi back to Finland to develop another year. This idea of playing in Finland is strictly a move to get him traded out of Edmonton for whatever reason and has nothing to do with him thinking he could develop better there.

[Amebushi]

I am so sick of hearing these entitled brats. They have the talent to make huge money playing a game that millions of people love and they have to get greedy.  I hate the leafs and am not exactly an Oilers fan(hard to hate a team that sucks every year as they are no threat) Watching Nylander sit last year and drive up RFA prices (and performing like garbage) and now Pool Party thinking there should be a bidding war for his services??? There is a structure for RFA, RFA with arbitration rights and full UFA for a reason. Edmonton has wasted a high draft pick on this kid, tried to develop him (ok I laughed while I wrote it too but the “effort” was still there) and now have the rights to sign him. I hope he rots in Finland and the GM’s here never watch him play again. I don’t want him on this team if he is free and plays for league minimum. I had to work hard and pay my dues to get anywhere in life and so should he. I’ll take Goldy over him any day. At least Goldy wants to play. If Puljujarvi wants to be in the NHL he should put on his big boy pants, sign a cheap one year deal with the oil and prove he can play. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Amebushi
Can’t spell

[Me_]

1 hour ago, Amebushi said:

I am so sick of hearing these entitled brats. They have the talent to make huge money playing a game that millions of people love and they have to get greedy.  I hate the leafs and am not exactly an Oilers fan(hard to hate a team that sucks every year as they are no threat) Watching Nylander sit last year and drive up RFA prices (and performing like garbage) and now Pool Party thinking there should be a bidding war for his services??? There is a structure for RFA, RFA with arbitration rights and full UFA for a reason. Edmonton has wasted a high draft pick on this kid, tried to develop him (ok I laughed while I wrote it too but the “effort” was still there) and now have the rights to sign him. I hope he rots in Finland and the GM’s here never watch him play again. I don’t want him on this team if he is free and plays for league minimum. I had to work hard and pay my dues to get anywhere in life and so should he. I’ll take Goldy over him any day. At least Goldy wants to play. If Puljujarvi wants to be in the NHL he should put on his big boy pants, sign a cheap one year deal with the oil and prove he can play. 

Edmonton has wasted a lot of draft picks.

Moot point.

 

Two hours after landing in Edmonton I wanted to get out of there.

[Amebushi]

3 hours ago, Me_ said:

Edmonton has wasted a lot of draft picks.

Moot point.

 

Two hours after landing in Edmonton I wanted to get out of there.

While I don’t disagree with wanting out of Edmonton, for a million or more a year I’ll move there this weekend. Kids with no other skills in life should get their priorities in order. 

[Provost]

20 minutes ago, Amebushi said:

While I don’t disagree with wanting out of Edmonton, for a million or more a year I’ll move there this weekend. Kids with no other skills in life should get their priorities in order. 

Except, he has enough skills to get a job somewhere better than Edmonton.  Both in terms of the city and the team which has ruined quite a number of players.

[oldnews]

On 8/9/2019 at 10:24 PM, Alflives said:

JP can’t play without the puck in an offensive situation.  He’s a terrible player, who has very little value.  

why do you say this Alf?   Are you serious - or just naming the typical Deadmonton shortcoming?

[oldnews]

On 8/9/2019 at 7:06 AM, theo5789 said:

If you were in the same situation as Edmonton, would Goldy and a 3rd be enough? Edmonton holds the cards right now. If Puljujarvi wants to go back to Finland, then let him. I'll be patient looking for a deal and let guys like Benson and Yamamoto and maybe even Lavoie surpass him on the depth as he toils in Europe. He's only hurting his own career with this move. Teams at some point need to send a message to these young guys that they can't pull these moves to get what they want, especially severely unproven ones like Puljujarvi. If I was Holland, I'm not taking scraps for him and especially not so to a divisional rival.

 

If teams are trading for him, he's not going to want to stay in Finland. He's only doing this as a power move to try and get what he wants. I forget the rule, but he would have to be signed by a certain date of he's to be played this season and I rather have the guys currently in our system step into any injury fill in spots rather than throw in a guy who wouldn't have even have had one practice with us and learn our systems in this scenario.

 

As the wingers spots "thin", we will have our own players competing for spots and Puljujarvi has as much guarantee to succeed as those guys. We could see Lockwood, Lind, Hoglander all competing by next season.

 

To be clear, if we can get Puljujarvi for cheap, then I'm all for it, but I don't think the price is that low yet and we don't have the space for a project like him at this point (while other teams might if we try to get him through waivers). I just don't see it being worth the trouble at this point.

I guess it depends who you're talking to.    Virtanen arguably had a comparable early NHL career - and so many folks around here were ready to dump him for weaker returns than a productive young player like Goldobin + pick....   I don't really consider those to be 'scraps' considering the context - not simply JP's struggles early in Deadmonton - but an asset that is ready to walk away - play in Europe -  to get out of Edmonton.

 

If it weren't Edmonton - with that track record - I might agree with some people's opinions that he's premature in making this kind of stand - and hasn't necessarily played well enough to have the leverage to do so - but in this case, I kind of respect the player's resolve - imo there is no question that Edmonton is a second-rate place to develop.

[Alflives]

14 minutes ago, oldnews said:

why do you say this Alf?   Are you serious - or just naming the typical Deadmonton shortcoming?

I see JP as a guy like Goldy.  With the puck, in an offensive situation, he’s good.  Without the puck, or having the puck in a defensive circumstance, he’s terrible.  Can JP learn to play well enough without the puck to play in the NHL?  I’d say he can.  I was very high on him in his draft year.  He’s a big guy, who skates well, and has excellent puck skills.  But, now he requires waivers to go to the AHL.  I don’t think his current offence compensates for his very poor off the puck play.  He needs to learn defensive play in the AHL.  Any team trading for JP would want to send him down to learn.  Teammates want to win.  JP needs to prove to those teammates he can play the right way without the puck.  That’s best done in the A, IMO. 

[oldnews]

Just now, Alflives said:

I see JP as a guy like Goldy.  With the puck, in an offensive situation, he’s good.  Without the puck, or having the puck in a defensive circumstance, he’s terrible.  Can JP learn to play well enough without the puck to play in the NHL?  I’d say he can.  I was very high on him in his draft year.  He’s a big guy, who skates well, and has excellent puck skills.  But, now he requires waivers to go to the AHL.  I don’t think his current offence compensates for his very poor off the puck play.  He needs to learn defensive play in the AHL.  Any team trading for JP would want to send him down to learn.  Teammates want to win.  JP needs to prove to those teammates he can play the right way without the puck.  That’s best done in the A, IMO. 

Sorry Alfie - but you lost me with the first sentence.

Puljujarvi was widely considered to be one of the more complete players in his draft class - more developed two-way game than the vast majority of the field.

He's played on a somewhat strange Edmonton '3rd line' - getting 46.9% ozone starts - with RNH - who is not really a 'shutdown'/matchup center - not a particularly good faceoff guy - doesn't have particularly good 'underlying'/shot differential numbers - goal metrics are no better than Puljujarvi's.... RNH's production is probably fairly impressive in context - so perhaps JP's can be questioned in that role, but otherwise, playing with Strome and Lucic is also not going to serve JP's production. 

I think comparing him to Goldbobin is a serious miss - I think the better comparable would be Virtanen - who like Puljujarvi - has played in principally bottom six situations - has an under-rated game without the puck - but who's production relative to draft pedigree has disappointed people early in his career.

I don't see Puljujarvi as you do - I think he'd be a solid pick up - but under the circumstances, I don't think Edmonton gets what they're probably hoping to for him.

 

[theo5789]

46 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I guess it depends who you're talking to.    Virtanen arguably had a comparable early NHL career - and so many folks around here were ready to dump him for weaker returns than a productive young player like Goldobin + pick....   I don't really consider those to be 'scraps' considering the context - not simply JP's struggles early in Deadmonton - but an asset that is ready to walk away - play in Europe -  to get out of Edmonton.

 

If it weren't Edmonton - with that track record - I might agree with some people's opinions that he's premature in making this kind of stand - and hasn't necessarily played well enough to have the leverage to do so - but in this case, I kind of respect the player's resolve - imo there is no question that Edmonton is a second-rate place to develop.

Well I'm certainly not one of those that would've dumped Virtanen and clearly those that would have would be wrong IMO. Now I get that Puljujarvi doesn't want to be an Oiler and I would certainly look to move him as he would have no use for them if he's absolutely done with the organization, but I wouldn't take a lower return simply to move him. He's not hurting the organization since he won't be around being a "cancer" and he's only hurting his own career with this decision. This is an opportunity to send a message to the future RFAs that try to pull the same stunt that if they want to force their way out, they can rot instead and it would be a message to teams that they aren't selling low on anyone.

 

As for Goldobin, he's two years older and his resume is no better than Puljujarvi. A 3rd doesn't make up for the difference in the potential that Puljujarvi has on top of Goldobin, even if Puljujarvi does become a dud. I would take no less than a Lind/Woo + a 2nd.

[oldnews]

6 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Well I'm certainly not one of those that would've dumped Virtanen and clearly those that would have would be wrong IMO. Now I get that Puljujarvi doesn't want to be an Oiler and I would certainly look to move him as he would have no use for them if he's absolutely done with the organization, but I wouldn't take a lower return simply to move him. He's not hurting the organization since he won't be around being a "cancer" and he's only hurting his own career with this decision. This is an opportunity to send a message to the future RFAs that try to pull the same stunt that if they want to force their way out, they can rot instead and it would be a message to teams that they aren't selling low on anyone.

 

As for Goldobin, he's two years older and his resume is no better than Puljujarvi. A 3rd doesn't make up for the difference in the potential that Puljujarvi has on top of Goldobin, even if Puljujarvi does become a dud. I would take no less than a Lind/Woo + a 2nd.

I'm not sure Edmonton has time to doddle around - sending messages to prospects they can't develop - or whether they have the track-record/credibility to call it a 'stunt' when a young player wants out.   This would be the rare occassion where I'd understand, if not support, the resolve of the player.

Additionally - Goldobin represents potential production NOW - at a position where Edmonton, remarkably, has been unable to find production - alongside the likes of McD and Draisaitl.  So Goldiobin's age, imo, aint a factor - and they could do worse - and in fact have done worse, with a 1st overall....that is their track record, and just the tip of the iceberg, really.

Edited August 11, 2019 by oldnews

[theo5789]

10 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I'm not sure Edmonton has time to doddle around - sending messages to prospects they can't develop - or whether they have the track-record/credibility to call it a 'stunt' when a young player wants out.   This would be the rare occassion where I'd understand, if not support, the resolve of the player.

Additionally - Goldobin represents potential production NOW - at a position where Edmonton, remarkably, has been unable to find production - alongside the likes of McD and Draisaitl.  So Goldiobin's age, imo, aint a factor - and they could do worse - and in fact have done worse, with a 1st overall....that is their track record, and just the tip of the iceberg, really.

That track record is with a different GM. I doubt Holland wants to drag his name through the mud as well as he's asked for full control of operations of he wouldn't have taken the job.

 

I do understand agreeing with the player's decision, but from the organization's perspective, they don't need to give in to his demands. It's a sacrifice they may have to make for a long term message. So unless they're getting a fair offer, I personally wouldn't make the move. I disagree that Goldobin provides much more now. He's about as much of a project as Puljujarvi at a later stage in his career. If they really want help now, then I'm sure they'd be targeting someone more along the lines of a Pearson, but I imagine they'd still want a 2nd added in this case.