[Report] Canucks recall Nikolay Goldobin, assign Sven Baertschi to Comets

[theo5789]

7 hours ago, mll said:

2 games and not 5 - 2nd game was a split between Sutter/Horvat.  He only played 6 games so it's easy to look up TOI with Horvat.  He was often benched and didn't play much in 3rd periods despite Green saying he was playing well in those games.  Using Natural Stat Trick:

 

@ Jets - 8:15  with Horvat  most common centre

vs Devils - 4:40 and 4:54 with Sutter

vs Predators - 6:30   most common centre.  Beagle was missing and Sutter went down early in that game.

vs Dallas - didn't play together

vs Avalanche - didn't play together

@ Dallas - didn't play together

 

Henrik had that interview about how skilled players need to be around the puck and that they need ice time.  He was explaining how tough it is to play 13-14 minutes and expect to produce.  Baertschi didn't even get that kind of minutes and he wasn't even on the PP initially because there was Sutter.   He averaged 1:30 on the PP.  

 

Henrik was saying that a skilled player needs confidence.  When there is a 50/50 play if you are confident you will go for it, but if you don't have that confidence you are more likely to avoid making the play or you react too late and the play is gone.  Also without confidence you are less likely to be able to make a skilled play.  Laviolette says skilled players have to dare to create - they can't play to avoid making a mistake.  With so little ice time and getting benched regularly despite having a good game you play to not make mistakes. 

 

I responded to a poster that suggested he never got to play to play with Bo. He didn't generate much with Bo and that's why he wasn't played with Bo. He's a Utica callup, so it's up to him to make his time count while he's here. Gaudette is doing that all year so far without the help of anyone and without top 6 minutes. He was the main one that knocked out Baertschi in the first place. I like Baertschi, but he needed to show a bit more if he's hoping to jump ahead of anyone currently on the team. If he requires top 6 minutes and requires a certain linemate to be effective, then he's a replaceable player (which doesn't mean he's a bad player, but other options could fill that void and maybe provide other elements if you aren't the play driver or play creator yourself).

 

The reality is Baertschi is likely a decent 0.5 PPG player, but that's about it. The reason why Sutter was ahead of Baertschi on the PP is because we needed a faceoff man on the second unit since Bo and Miller were on the top unit. Baertschi may find success elsewhere as we have moved on to a different direction, but if teams felt he had the potential to be an effective 2nd liner, then someone would've taken him for free. Perhaps someone would now which is why we sent him down so he won't need waivers again, so if that's the case then there's potential for a trade still. The only return we need is the cap space.

 

Players need to earn their minutes rather than be handed minutes. Both Sven and Goldy have been started where they should excel and there's no time to wait for them to get settled in. They've gotten their window of opportunity with the injuries to make a statement and now bodies are returning soon and they haven't (yet) made the decision tough for the team like Gaudette has.

[mll]

20 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

I responded to a poster that suggested he never got to play to play with Bo. He didn't generate much with Bo and that's why he wasn't played with Bo. He's a Utica callup, so it's up to him to make his time count while he's here. Gaudette is doing that all year so far without the help of anyone and without top 6 minutes. He was the main one that knocked out Baertschi in the first place. I like Baertschi, but he needed to show a bit more if he's hoping to jump ahead of anyone currently on the team. If he requires top 6 minutes and requires a certain linemate to be effective, then he's a replaceable player (which doesn't mean he's a bad player, but other options could fill that void and maybe provide other elements if you aren't the play driver or play creator yourself).

 

The reality is Baertschi is likely a decent 0.5 PPG player, but that's about it. The reason why Sutter was ahead of Baertschi on the PP is because we needed a faceoff man on the second unit since Bo and Miller were on the top unit. Baertschi may find success elsewhere as we have moved on to a different direction, but if teams felt he had the potential to be an effective 2nd liner, then someone would've taken him for free. Perhaps someone would now which is why we sent him down so he won't need waivers again, so if that's the case then there's potential for a trade still. The only return we need is the cap space.

 

Players need to earn their minutes rather than be handed minutes. Both Sven and Goldy have been started where they should excel and there's no time to wait for them to get settled in. They've gotten their window of opportunity with the injuries to make a statement and now bodies are returning soon and they haven't (yet) made the decision tough for the team like Gaudette has.

 

Baertschi-Horvat played well together - see Green's quote.  The line couldn't be kept together because of the injuries to Sutter and Beagle.  Horvat had to become the shutdown line and that's not a role for Baertschi.  

 

It's pretty obvious that he was never going to stick. Already in the summer listening to Green and Benning he was the odd man out.  Not at media day at opening of camp unlike every other veteran, on a line with a junior C, not on the PP units.  He doesn't fit how they want to play.  I expect them to buy him out this summer if they can't trade him.  

 

A lot of players sail through waivers when teams are trying to set their opening night rosters - it's cap and they want to see what the players at camp can do in the regular season.  It's really not unusual.  On top of that Baertschi has a severe concussion history, his cap hit is over 3M and he has an extra year. 

 

[theo5789]

6 hours ago, mll said:

 

Baertschi-Horvat played well together - see Green's quote.  The line couldn't be kept together because of the injuries to Sutter and Beagle.  Horvat had to become the shutdown line and that's not a role for Baertschi.  

 

It's pretty obvious that he was never going to stick. Already in the summer listening to Green and Benning he was the odd man out.  Not at media day at opening of camp unlike every other veteran, on a line with a junior C, not on the PP units.  He doesn't fit how they want to play.  I expect them to buy him out this summer if they can't trade him.  

 

A lot of players sail through waivers when teams are trying to set their opening night rosters - it's cap and they want to see what the players at camp can do in the regular season.  It's really not unusual.  On top of that Baertschi has a severe concussion history, his cap hit is over 3M and he has an extra year. 

 

Fair enough point about why Sven was taken off Bo's line, but that doesn't mean he never got a chance with Bo as the poster suggested.

 

With that said, Benning said they would call him up when there were injuries and he kept to his word. He got to play 6 games with an opportunity to make it tough to send him back down. He generated a bit, but as a pure offensive player, he needed to do more. Gaudette is a prime example and was the one that pretty much bumped him out.

 

I don't disagree that the writing is on the wall for Sven, but this isn't simply due to Green not liking him and not giving him the chances. Green had set out what he's looking for and it's up to the players to show that to him. If there is the value that is seen here, then surely a team will take a chance and take him on with retained cap or what not. Teams don't see the value, so they want to force a cap dump type deal in which we are not in favour of. He's simply found himself in the Gagner/Spooner predicament. A player with concussion risks like Johansson has no problem finding contracts still at the point because he is providing the value (at an even higher cap).

[Timbermen]

I thought Goldobin looked much better although he only got about 8 minutes and and didn't stay on the first line for long. Went to the Utica and played great., deserves another chance.

[Industrious1]

I just thought of something, who was that tiny little player we (terribly) drafted awhile ago that everyone was clamoring for that never got a 'real' shot?  Scheen or Schallen or something like that?

 

All these topics are incredibly familiar now...just with Goldobin's name switched out with his (damn I wish I could remember his name).

 

I guess this is what happens when you've been on this board long enough.

 

Edit:  Just thought of it...Schroeder lol I think we took him over someone pretty valuable too, didn't we?

Edited November 29, 2019 by Industrious1

[mll]

14 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Fair enough point about why Sven was taken off Bo's line, but that doesn't mean he never got a chance with Bo as the poster suggested.

 

With that said, Benning said they would call him up when there were injuries and he kept to his word. He got to play 6 games with an opportunity to make it tough to send him back down. He generated a bit, but as a pure offensive player, he needed to do more. Gaudette is a prime example and was the one that pretty much bumped him out.

 

I don't disagree that the writing is on the wall for Sven, but this isn't simply due to Green not liking him and not giving him the chances. Green had set out what he's looking for and it's up to the players to show that to him. If there is the value that is seen here, then surely a team will take a chance and take him on with retained cap or what not. Teams don't see the value, so they want to force a cap dump type deal in which we are not in favour of. He's simply found himself in the Gagner/Spooner predicament. A player with concussion risks like Johansson has no problem finding contracts still at the point because he is providing the value (at an even higher cap).

It's Pearson/Ferland that bumped him out but also the change of approach. Benning said they had enough skills in their top-6 and Green wanted to go in another direction. They don't see him as a bottom-6 player and there is no spot in the top-6.  Benning talked of how Pearson had chemistry with Horvat, of a 3rd line of Leivo-Sutter-Virtanen and how Ferland/Miller were brought in to help the top-6.  The lines they had drawn up didn't hold but he gave an indication of the lines they wanted - no spot for Baertschi or Goldobin for that matter.

 
A trade at 50% retained is 1.683M cap hit for one more season after this one. A buyout this June is a 1.766M cap hit followed by 800K the year after. A contract buried next season is a 2.291M cap hit.  The Canucks will possibly want to clear cap space somewhere given a possible bonus overage on top of the Luongo recapture/Spooner buyout.

 

Johansson was dealing with concussions in 2017/18 but played the following season.  Not the same situation had free agency been in summer 2018 instead of 2019. He was able to show that he was over them and could still play.  Not sure he had the mental issues that Baertschi had to overcome either as concussions are different for each person. 

 

The latest Dayal article on Baertschi's concussion is scary.  He went to hell not just physically but also mentally. "I had so many worries, day in and day out, and I made it worse. I wasn’t a normal person. My wife said I looked like a zombie walking around".  How can teams know that he won't get caught back in that dark spiral.  At his cap hit I don't see a team taking that risk - a league minimum contract or a PTO seems more likely assuming a buyout this summer.

 

[theo5789]

4 hours ago, mll said:

It's Pearson/Ferland that bumped him out but also the change of approach. Benning said they had enough skills in their top-6 and Green wanted to go in another direction. They don't see him as a bottom-6 player and there is no spot in the top-6.  Benning talked of how Pearson had chemistry with Horvat, of a 3rd line of Leivo-Sutter-Virtanen and how Ferland/Miller were brought in to help the top-6.  The lines they had drawn up didn't hold but he gave an indication of the lines they wanted - no spot for Baertschi or Goldobin for that matter.

 
A trade at 50% retained is 1.683M cap hit for one more season after this one. A buyout this June is a 1.766M cap hit followed by 800K the year after. A contract buried next season is a 2.291M cap hit.  The Canucks will possibly want to clear cap space somewhere given a possible bonus overage on top of the Luongo recapture/Spooner buyout.

 

Johansson was dealing with concussions in 2017/18 but played the following season.  Not the same situation had free agency been in summer 2018 instead of 2019. He was able to show that he was over them and could still play.  Not sure he had the mental issues that Baertschi had to overcome either as concussions are different for each person. 

 

The latest Dayal article on Baertschi's concussion is scary.  He went to hell not just physically but also mentally. "I had so many worries, day in and day out, and I made it worse. I wasn’t a normal person. My wife said I looked like a zombie walking around".  How can teams know that he won't get caught back in that dark spiral.  At his cap hit I don't see a team taking that risk - a league minimum contract or a PTO seems more likely assuming a buyout this summer.

 

Gaudette won a roster spot. Had he not, then potentially either Baertschi or Goldobin gets that roster spot whether it's a pressbox one or lineup one. They could've easily sent Gaudette down for more minutes, but Gaudette made it impossible for us to do so. Baertschi didn't do the same, but with the preseason he had, he likely would have taken that spot of Goldobin.

 

I would say the biggest difference between Johansson and Baertschi is Johansson had proven to be a top 6 forward before his concussions while Baertschi is still living in the potential to be one when suffering his. It's easier to take the risk knowing the player will likely be what you want with the risk of injury rather than still hoping he will become one and have that same risk of injury. I believe Baertschi was getting there, but time has caught up to him and if he didn't unfortunately suffer those concussions, then he would be there by now and would be someone that we consider a main piece to our team.

 

I wish the best for Baertschi and perhaps he still has potential to be something, but it won't be here (unless injuries mount again, but I assume we will see the likes of Lind, Jasek and maybe Gadjovich as well first to start having a look at what the prospects we have can do and so they can see what the next level is like) and there's no more time to hope he develops into something we simply hoped he would be.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

 

[rychicken]

2 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

 

[Dazzle]

3 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

 

Wasn't given a fair shake in this call up.

Gave him 8 minutes and only 1 game. Meanwhile Loui Eriksson, as much as I want to defend him, took two penalties, resulting in two goals. Eriksson does get benched in that 3rd period, but plays the next game.

 

Green is really questionable with how he is playing his favourites.

[DefCon1]

On 11/26/2019 at 9:32 AM, -Vintage Canuck- said:

If Sutter, Ferland and Beagle are all good to go, this could be the lineup:

 

Miller - Pettersson - Boeser

Pearson - Horvat - Goldobin

Ferland - Sutter - Gaudette

Schaller - Beagle - Virtanen

Leivo

Where is Roussell?

Canucks best lineup if healthy will be this:

 

Miller-Pettersson-Boeser

Pearson-Horvat-Gaudette

Ferland-Sutter-Roussell

Schaller-Beagle-Virtanen

 

Leivo and Goldobin scratches but probably won't be that often since we will always have someone injured up front like Ferland, sutter and Beagle.

[Tre Mac]

5 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Wasn't given a fair shake in this call up.

Gave him 8 minutes and only 1 game. Meanwhile Loui Eriksson, as much as I want to defend him, took two penalties, resulting in two goals. Eriksson does get benched in that 3rd period, but plays the next game.

 

Green is really questionable with how he is playing his favourites.

I am a huge Green supporter but I agree with you in saying Goldy didn't get much of a chance.  

[JM_]

23 minutes ago, Tre Mac said:

I am a huge Green supporter but I agree with you in saying Goldy didn't get much of a chance.  

looks to me like Green made up his mind about Goldy a long time ago. I hope the kid gets a chance somewhere. 

 

It does bug me but all coaches do this, they have guys they like a let make lots of mistakes (like Green with Gaudette) and other guys get the bench treatment. 

[10pavelbure96]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

looks to me like Green made up his mind about Goldy a long time ago. I hope the kid gets a chance somewhere. 

 

It does bug me but all coaches do this, they have guys they like a let make lots of mistakes (like Green with Gaudette) and other guys get the bench treatment. 

Gaudette is big time worthy though.he deserves to be up there.. goldy and green is the complete opposite of willie d and megna lol

[AK_19]

3 hours ago, DefCon1 said:

Where is Roussell?

Canucks best lineup if healthy will be this:

 

Miller-Pettersson-Boeser

Pearson-Horvat-Gaudette

Ferland-Sutter-Roussell

Schaller-Beagle-Virtanen

 

Leivo and Goldobin scratches but probably won't be that often since we will always have someone injured up front like Ferland, sutter and Beagle.

The only swap I'd make is Motte for Schaller.

[StanleyCupOneDay]

32 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

looks to me like Green made up his mind about Goldy a long time ago. I hope the kid gets a chance somewhere. 

 

It does bug me but all coaches do this, they have guys they like a let make lots of mistakes (like Green with Gaudette) and other guys get the bench treatment. 

I love Goldy and wish he would be on our team for years to come, but it’s obvious to me he doesn’t have the defensive capabilities that are required for anyone not of super star offense status to play in the big league. He will be a tweener NHL/AHL player for life unless he figures out that part of his game.

 

Gaudette at the very least tries to get back when caught out of position defensively. The two are not alike at all in any way other than they are two young guys in the Canucks organization so the comparison between them to me seems a bit like apples and oranges.

[JM_]

1 hour ago, 10pavelbure96 said:

Gaudette is big time worthy though.he deserves to be up there.. goldy and green is the complete opposite of willie d and megna lol

I wasn't making that comp at all  

 

Goldy has the skills to be a top 6 playmaker, Bo needs a top 6 playmaker..... 

[Tre Mac]

2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

looks to me like Green made up his mind about Goldy a long time ago. I hope the kid gets a chance somewhere. 

 

It does bug me but all coaches do this, they have guys they like a let make lots of mistakes (like Green with Gaudette) and other guys get the bench treatment. 

I feel for the kid, scores a goal in his Canuck debut then gets benched for the rest of the game.  From all accounts went to Utica played well and this was the chance he was given, one period?  Did Green expect him to score on his first shift?

[JM_]

1 hour ago, StanleyCupOneDay said:

I love Goldy and wish he would be on our team for years to come, but it’s obvious to me he doesn’t have the defensive capabilities that are required for anyone not of super star offense status to play in the big league. He will be a tweener NHL/AHL player for life unless he figures out that part of his game.

 

Gaudette at the very least tries to get back when caught out of position defensively. The two are not alike at all in any way other than they are two young guys in the Canucks organization so the comparison between them to me seems a bit like apples and oranges.

they're "alike" in the sense Green has given AG a ton of rope - which I agree with. But AG has been horrible on some shifts, its not a knock, its necessary learning curve time. 

 

Goldy on the other hand gets benched way too fast, imo. This last time up he really wasn't given much of a chance at all. Leivo is what he is, we know exactly what we're getting there. It would have been nice to see Goldy play an actual game with Bo, not 3 $&!#s. 

 

But like i said, all coaches do this to some degree, it is what it is. 

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, Tre Mac said:

I feel for the kid, scores a goal in his Canuck debut then gets benched for the rest of the game.  From all accounts went to Utica played well and this was the chance he was given, one period?  Did Green expect him to score on his first shift?

I just don't see the need for both Leivo and Pearson with Bo. I mean how many guys on the boards does one line need? Bo needs a playmaker, I would have loved to see Goldy get that chance. I mean, even Loui got that for 1 game ffs