Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management

[stawns]

29 minutes ago, appleboy said:

So another seven years? Jim has done the same thing. His only focus has been the NHL. 

This is the most depth this organization has ever had on the 46 years I've been a fan

[BPA]

11 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I dont think a lot of the fan base understands what a rebuild actually is vs a retool. In 7 years Benning has not engaged in anything other than drafting high (because his retools didnt work at all) that can be remotely seen as the hallmarks of a rebuild.

 

Giving the Sedins another chance or two was a mistake but I could at least undertand the thought process behind it. Since that time though, continuing the same approach has still not worked at all 

So you agree that giving the Sedins another shot was the plan/goal at the beginning (retool).  Obviously that didn't work out and the plan/goal shifted to rebuild. 

 

So clearly the goalposts have moved during the 7 years of JB tenure.

[appleboy]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

This is the most depth this organization has ever had on the 46 years I've been a fan

Exactly, they have never built the organization depth since coming into the league.                I have been a fan as long as you. 

 

Actually the years leading up to the Sedin era was as good or better. The problem was that those players graduated and they stopped building the overall org. 

 

How many cups have we won?  

 

So you think it is good to keep doing the same thing even though there is 50 years of proof that it doesn't work? That is what I have been trying to say for the last ten years. This is not working and all it brings is mediocracy.

 

I have some hope that putting their farm team in the lower main land will encourage the owners to see the importance of stocking their farm team properly. Building from the ground up. Profits talk and the farm team could be very profitable and create a pipeline to the NHL. Bringing more NHL fans with it. Fans will follow the AHL stars.

 

We can hope they open their eyes.

[BPA]

15 minutes ago, BPA said:

So you agree that giving the Sedins another shot was the plan/goal at the beginning (retool).  Obviously that didn't work out and the plan/goal shifted to rebuild. 

 

So clearly the goalposts have moved during the 7 years of JB tenure.

 

10 minutes ago, appleboy said:

Exactly, they have never built the organization depth since coming into the league.                I have been a fan as long as you. 

 

Actually the years leading up to the Sedin era was as good or better. The problem was that those players graduated and they stopped building the overall org. 

 

How many cups have we won?  

 

So you think it is good to keep doing the same thing even though there is 50 years of proof that it doesn't work? That is what I have been trying to say for the last ten years. This is not working and all it brings is mediocracy.

 

I have some hope that putting their farm team in the lower main land will encourage the owners to see the importance of stocking their farm team properly. Building from the ground up. Profits talk and the farm team could be very profitable and create a pipeline to the NHL. Bringing more NHL fans with it. Fans will follow the AHL stars.

 

We can hope they open their eyes.

I agree with you both here.

 

Canucks need to keep the scouting staff strong to draft gems in early and later rounds.  To build up the prospect pool and depth.  It is the only way to keep cost control in the salary cap era.  Much like how TB can lose Miller but still be OK and be a strong contender. 

 

The trading of draft picks in order to "go for it" had left the Canucks with almost nothing when JB arrived.

[stawns]

1 minute ago, appleboy said:

Exactly, they have never built the organization depth since coming into the league.                I have been a fan as long as you. 

 

Actually the years leading up to the Sedin era was as good or better. The problem was that those players graduated and they stopped building the overall org. 

 

How many cups have we won?  

 

So you think it is good to keep doing the same thing even though there is 50 years of proof that it doesn't work? That is what I have been trying to say for the last ten years. This is not working and all it brings is mediocracy.

 

I have some hope that putting their farm team in the lower main land will encourage the owners to see the importance of stocking their farm team properly. Building from the ground up. Profits talk and the farm team could be very profitable and create a pipeline to the NHL. Bringing more NHL fans with it. Fans will follow the AHL stars.

 

We can hope they open their eyes.

How are they doing the same thing?  You say it was good up to the sedins years, well that was nonis doing and those players all graduated and Gillis crapped the bed.  Now JB has finally gotten back to the nonis level and it's the best move to continue to let him build, he clearly knows how to do i

[appleboy]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

How are they doing the same thing?  You say it was good up to the sedins years, well that was nonis doing and those players all graduated and Gillis crapped the bed.  Now JB has finally gotten back to the nonis level and it's the best move to continue to let him build, he clearly knows how to do i

I have no problem with Jim staying. I think he has been doing what the owners want. They set the direction and the speed in which it needs to occur. Moving their minors close to home is a step in the right direction. The lack of cap space will also force them to slow down. 

 

We will soon see what the owners want. If they start to focus on building properly then me and you might see a cup in our life span. If they go hard into the UFA market and strive to force this club back to the playoff's. Then we might see a bit of an improvement for a few years and then we will be right back to where we started.

 

The difference between me and most of the Canuck fans is that like you I have watched this club for close to 50 years. I will only be happy with a cup. I am fine with some more down years if they are building for one purpose. The Stanley Cup. 

Hughes and Petey need a few more years to mature anyway.

 

I don't think changing Jim is as important as having the right direction set by the owners.  Lets,  "Build for the Cup"

[stawns]

1 hour ago, appleboy said:

I have no problem with Jim staying. I think he has been doing what the owners want. They set the direction and the speed in which it needs to occur. Moving their minors close to home is a step in the right direction. The lack of cap space will also force them to slow down. 

 

We will soon see what the owners want. If they start to focus on building properly then me and you might see a cup in our life span. If they go hard into the UFA market and strive to force this club back to the playoff's. Then we might see a bit of an improvement for a few years and then we will be right back to where we started.

 

The difference between me and most of the Canuck fans is that like you I have watched this club for close to 50 years. I will only be happy with a cup. I am fine with some more down years if they are building for one purpose. The Stanley Cup. 

Hughes and Petey need a few more years to mature anyway.

 

I don't think changing Jim is as important as having the right direction set by the owners.  Lets,  "Build for the Cup"

again, how does signing UFA's hinder a rebuild?  Name me a team that doesn't have UFA player on it?  Every team is made up of a variety of players........drafted players, rfa's, ufa's etc etc etc.  If there is a UFA who fills a spot in the lineup that can't be filled within the organization a GM would be foolish not to do it.

[aGENT]

17 minutes ago, stawns said:

again, how does signing UFA's hinder a rebuild?  Name me a team that doesn't have UFA player on it?  Every team is made up of a variety of players........drafted players, rfa's, ufa's etc etc etc.  If there is a UFA who fills a spot in the lineup that can't be filled within the organization a GM would be foolish not to do it.

I do find it funny when people trot out 'We still have holes at RD and 3C!' as some indictment of management.

 

One, we're still coming out of a rebuild with opportunity for those holes to be organically filled.

 

Two, as you point out, no team has ever been built 100% through the draft. Every team supplements their own drafted players via trades and free agents.

[alt kilgore]

43 minutes ago, appleboy said:

I have no problem with Jim staying. I think he has been doing what the owners want. They set the direction and the speed in which it needs to occur. Moving their minors close to home is a step in the right direction. The lack of cap space will also force them to slow down. 

 

We will soon see what the owners want. If they start to focus on building properly then me and you might see a cup in our life span. If they go hard into the UFA market and strive to force this club back to the playoff's. Then we might see a bit of an improvement for a few years and then we will be right back to where we started.

 

The difference between me and most of the Canuck fans is that like you I have watched this club for close to 50 years. I will only be happy with a cup. I am fine with some more down years if they are building for one purpose. The Stanley Cup. 

Hughes and Petey need a few more years to mature anyway.

 

I don't think changing Jim is as important as having the right direction set by the owners.  Lets,  "Build for the Cup"

 

I agree with everything you write in the thread ...except I'm puzzled by your continued faith in JB.   "I think he has been doing what the owners want"  That's acceptable to you as fulfilling his job role? 

 

I know there are some here for whom that is fine.  Money is god, and if the Aqua guys are putting up the money they can even purposely destroy the franchise if they so desire. No responsibility to the hockey culture here. And they are fine with that, I guess they will cheer on the Kraken if that ever happened.

 

But I've followed this team too long, through too many disappointments, to just accept that.  The paragraph I bolded in your post is key.  The problem though is that this is what they should have done no later than 2016, after missing the playoffs after bowing out in the first round in '15.  It was clear the Sedins, and others in that core were probably not going to repeat a SCF.   The Sedins already would have had four post-2011 chances to make it back to the dance by then, for all those that cry about how the Sedins deserved more chances.

 

But for whatever reason, maybe the Aquilini's friendship with Hank and Danny, they insisted their GM keep repeating the same thing over with the same results. Linden probably just had enough of this losing strategy and didn't want his name on it. 

 

Do you really trust JB with any new cap money coming in?  While I hope like hell he's going to make smarter decisions in the future if he stays, I wish the owners would make a bigger move than talking to local ex-players.  They seem terrified of actual established Cup winning candidates for President or GM from around the league. In other words, hiring anyone who they fear they cannot intimidate into "doing what the owners want".  Sorry, that's not good enough for me. My Cup patience has run too thin.

 

 

[appleboy]

20 minutes ago, stawns said:

again, how does signing UFA's hinder a rebuild?  Name me a team that doesn't have UFA player on it?  Every team is made up of a variety of players........drafted players, rfa's, ufa's etc etc etc.  If there is a UFA who fills a spot in the lineup that can't be filled within the organization a GM would be foolish not to do it.

You always try to take every comment and stretch it to the extreme. To fill a spot or two with carefully selected and well priced UFA's is one thing. To build part of your roster with UFA's because you don't have anything in your system is another. It will also put you in cap purgatory. Sound familiar? 

 

RFA's is just the next step in securing the long term use of players that you have developed and know.

 

Filling your team with a bunch of older UFA's just prolongs a rebuild from happening. Yes it gives your team a few more wins for the short hall. Then because of their age they regress and their contracts clog up your cap space. All you have accomplished is hurt your teams draft status and slowed your rebuild. This team is the perfect example.

[appleboy]

9 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

I agree with everything you write in the thread ...except I'm puzzled by your continued faith in JB.   "I think he has been doing what the owners want"  That's acceptable to you as fulfilling his job role? 

 

I know there are some here for whom that is fine.  Money is god, and if the Aqua guys are putting up the money they can even purposely destroy the franchise if they so desire. No responsibility to the hockey culture here. And they are fine with that, I guess they will cheer on the Kraken if that ever happened.

 

But I've followed this team too long, through too many disappointments, to just accept that.  The paragraph I bolded in your post is key.  The problem though is that this is what they should have done no later than 2016, after missing the playoffs after bowing out in the first round in '15.  It was clear the Sedins, and others in that core were probably not going to repeat a SCF.   The Sedins already would have had four post-2011 chances to make it back to the dance by then, for all those that cry about how the Sedins deserved more chances.

 

But for whatever reason, maybe the Aquilini's friendship with Hank and Danny, they insisted their GM keep repeating the same thing over with the same results. Linden probably just had enough of this losing strategy and didn't want his name on it. 

 

Do you really trust JB with any new cap money coming in?  While I hope like hell he's going to make smarter decisions in the future if he stays, I wish the owners would make a bigger move than talking to local ex-players.  They seem terrified of actual established Cup winning candidates for President or GM from around the league. In other words, hiring anyone who they fear they cannot intimidate into "doing what the owners want".  Sorry, that's not good enough for me. My Cup patience has run too thin.

 

 

NO.

What I am saying is that the owners set the direction. If they get rid of Jim they will just find another person who sees things the way they do.

 

If the owners said to Jim, "we want you to build through the draft and create the deepest organization in the league".  Do you think he could do that?

 

I think he could.

 

[eeeeergh]

Considering what an advantage ELCs are, and JB's goal of contending 2 years from now, I wouldn't be surprised to see him try to trade for a few extra picks this year. He knows his edge is drafting, and with players like Hogs playing far above their 800k contract value, that could be his strategy for us being contenders. Have as many players on ELCs on the roster, and spend big $ on more depth through trades with teams with cap issues (like Vegas giving us Schmidt). 
If he can get another couple more players equivalent to hogs this year, we're gonna be a force in 2022-2023.
This will be the perfect year for Juolevi and Rathbone to hone their craft - Juolevi as a shutdown guy, and Rathbone as a more defensively responsible version of Hughes. 

Miller-EP-Boeser
2021 pick (Guenther?) - Bo - Hoglander
2021 Pick - 5m$ 3C - Podkolzin
Motte-Beagle-Pearson

 

Hughes-Tier 1 Shutdown defenseman
Juolevi - Myers
Rathbone - Schmidt

 

With 5-6 guys on ELCs, he'll have lots of $ left over to upgrade whatever we need at the trade deadline

[Fred65]

1 minute ago, eeeeergh said:

Considering what an advantage ELCs are, and JB's goal of contending 2 years from now, I wouldn't be surprised to see him try to trade for a few extra picks this year. He knows his edge is drafting, and with players like Hogs playing far above their 800k contract value, that could be his strategy for us being contenders. Have as many players on ELCs on the roster, and spend big $ on more depth through trades with teams with cap issues (like Vegas giving us Schmidt). 
If he can get another couple more players equivalent to hogs this year, we're gonna be a force in 2022-2023.
This will be the perfect year for Juolevi and Rathbone to hone their craft - Juolevi as a shutdown guy, and Rathbone as a more defensively responsible version of Hughes. 

Miller-EP-Boeser
2021 pick (Guenther?) - Bo - Hoglander
2021 Pick - 5m$ 3C - Podkolzin
Motte-Beagle-Pearson

 

Hughes-Tier 1 Shutdown defenseman
Juolevi - Myers
Rathbone - Schmidt

 

With 5-6 guys on ELCs, he'll have lots of $ left over to upgrade whatever we need at the trade deadline

The problem is no one wants Vcr cast off's they're poor quality and overpaid. No other GM in the league wants these guys. Our problem is self inflicted and no one will lift a finger to make us better

[eeeeergh]

1 minute ago, Fred65 said:

The problem is no one wants Vcr cast off's they're poor quality and overpaid. No other GM in the league wants these guys. Our problem is self inflicted and no one will lift a finger to make us better

Idk I don't think we really need to move them. Beagle we should keep. Roussel will be gone for 2022-2023. LE is bought out, as is Virt. Good chance Holts is taken in the expansion draft. Dead cap takes care of itself.

The assets I think JB could move for picks is some B level prospects. Guys that look like they'll be able to play in the NHL, but not project as top line players. He can get a big bundle of 2nds and 3rds, and can clearly draft impact players in those rounds. Idk, just a thought!

Looking at the roster and prospect pool as it is, we have a lot of great guys that will still be on ELCs in 2022-2023
Rathbone, Juolevi, Podkolzin, Hoglander + ideally whoever we draft in 2021 (Im hoping a top 6 scorer like Guenther, b/c they're expensive and difficult to acquire via trade and free agency). Pretty exciting stuff!!

[eeeeergh]

12 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

The problem is no one wants Vcr cast off's they're poor quality and overpaid. No other GM in the league wants these guys. Our problem is self inflicted and no one will lift a finger to make us better

Just being healthy next year alone is gonna be huge. Imagine not icing a 3rd and 4th line comprised entirely of AHL players. 
Instead, guys like Sutter, Podkolzin, Beagle, Motte, etc. 

 

I forgot about Highmore too, I think hes gonna be a great 4th line piece. With his forecheck, defensive responsibility, and good PKing, I think he does more good things for us than Gaudette. We need that third line to be a shutdown line to free up Bo's line to score, having Gaudette on it doesn't help that cause. 

[alt kilgore]

1 minute ago, appleboy said:

NO.

What I am saying is that the owners set the direction. If they get rid of Jim they will just find another person who sees things the way they do.

 

If the owners said to Jim, "we want you to build through the draft and create the deepest organization in the league".  Do you think he could do that?

 

I think he could.

 

Okay,  I guess I misinterpreted your post.

 

To answer your question.... I don't really know, (his first unilateral building block pick before he hired Brackett was Virtanen) But yes, obviously, he would try his best to fulfill that.  But also, I'd think he'd have to actually believe in that approach too. At least I'd think any GM worth his salt would also have to believe in the possible success of the direction, owner initiated or not.

 

So for you any past blame should be placed on ownership?  I'm not saying I don't disagree, but is it your contention that the Aqua's have suddenly seen the light?  And that they are now asking Jim to do what he should have done 5 years ago?  I don't see that. And furthermore, I think that time has passed.  Maybe I'm even more optimistic that you are, because its not the higher end positions we are missing, other than a true, and large, #2 D.  The accidental rebuild has put the team in a position wherein with a few very shrewd moves, and some luck, a truly talented and connected GM may corral the team into another contender. 

 

So, yeah, I'd trust Jim to "build through the draft and create the deepest organization in the league".  But that's not what happened, for whatever reasons. And its too late now. Too late if you want to take advantage of Petey and Hughes best years.  We now need a Gilman type GM to figure out how we can stop bleeding value, and start to buttress the team with good value contracts, from within if possible, to fill out our bottom six.

 

It seems like it was bound to fail, if the Aquilinis hired a "build through the draft" type GM, and then call him into the office on day one and tell him they don't want that. Ironic that if they would have just let him do what he was good at, the team would have been in a healthier position.  Hiring a build-through-the-draft specialist to instead re-tool, is just as bad as keeping that build-through-the-draft specialist when the team is ready to take the next step, imo. 

 

[FlyLow_]

9 hours ago, stawns said:

This is the most depth this organization has ever had on the 46 years I've been a fan

I guess I'll start drinking again

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, FlyLow_ said:

I guess I'll start drinking again

Stopping drinking is easy.  I’ve done it thousands of times. 

[bishopshodan]

9 hours ago, BPA said:

I agree with you both here.

 

One of the posters you agreed with...is you.  

[BPA]

18 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

One of the posters you agreed with...is you.  

Lol.  Ya I noticed that afterwards.   Meant to also quote stawns.  But too lazy to fix it.