[GDT/PGT - Preseason] Calgary @ Vancouver Monday, Sept. 27/21 7:00 PM Abbotsford Centre

[Dazzle]

26 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

You make my case for me Dazzle.  I post that I like Rathbone and I show clips why, I show  Rathbone doing things that I never see Juolevi do or able to do and you give me bag heads.  There’s a reality here that seems hard for people who are really emotionally invested in Juolevi to accept, and I get that.   It sucks that Juolevi lost so much development due to injury but Rathbone took advantage of the opportunity that was given and ran with it. Can’t blame him for being healthy. 

Of course Juolevi's injury has held him back, to the point where he's been arguably overtaken by other players. The problem is that this narrative about Rathbone being underappreciated is a major exaggeration. Rathbone is good, and his performance in camp has arguably helped his case more so than Juolevi. That being said, Juolevi provides something that Rathbone doesn't - the PK. Juolevi made some pretty good defensive plays, including one where he saved a goal by breaking up the pass.
 

For all the things that Rathbone gets praised for, Juolevi is actually the one who is underappreciated. He has never been flashy, so it's hard to argue that he'd "look better" than Rathbone. But you have to look beyond the offense of Rathbone - does he play a complete game?

There are questions about Hughes' game and the fact that his defensive game needs work - is Rathbone at the stage that Hughes is? You have to ask these questions about how Rathbone will fit into the roster, in light of these supposed defensive deficiencies. It takes a lot of time for defensemen to come and play hard NHL minutes.

[stawns]

3 hours ago, mll said:

Not sure that the PK is a good indicator of 5v5 defensive play.  There's no icing the puck on the PK.

There are several teams who will trust their 3rd pairing D on the PK but will still shelter them at 5v5.  Pateryn in Minnesota was not even a lineup regular but when in the lineup he would be one of the most used D on the PK.  Same for Tinordi in Nashville who led their team in PK ice time per game but was so often a scratch. 

 

 

OJ is pretty clearly a solid defensive player.  He understands his positioning very well and shows the discipline to maintain that position and rarely gets dragged out of it.  Being good in your own end is about smarts and discipline.......OJ has both of those characteristics in his game

[EternalCanuckFan]

26 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Of course Juolevi's injury has held him back, to the point where he's been arguably overtaken by other players. The problem is that this narrative about Rathbone being underappreciated is a major exaggeration. Rathbone is good, and his performance in camp has arguably helped his case more so than Juolevi. That being said, Juolevi provides something that Rathbone doesn't - the PK. Juolevi made some pretty good defensive plays, including one where he saved a goal by breaking up the pass.
 

For all the things that Rathbone gets praised for, Juolevi is actually the one who is underappreciated. He has never been flashy, so it's hard to argue that he'd "look better" than Rathbone. But you have to look beyond the offense of Rathbone - does he play a complete game?

There are questions about Hughes' game and the fact that his defensive game needs work - is Rathbone at the stage that Hughes is? You have to ask these questions about how Rathbone will fit into the roster, in light of these supposed defensive deficiencies. It takes a lot of time for defensemen to come and play hard NHL minutes.

I think the issue with Juolevi is that given his draft position, the hope (rightly or wrongly) was that he would be at least able to do offensively what Rathbone is able to do.  Rathbone has been a pleasant surprise since he was drafted.

 

I agree with you though about Juolevi being under appreciated at this point.  I think Juolevi has strengths in his skillset over someone like Rathbone, primarily in the actual playing of D (as seen by his use on the PK).  His size, reach and ability to think the game have been observable in a positive sense, even if it's not necessarily something that turns heads.  The main problem for Juolevi at this point of this career is that guys like Rathbone have a great chance of surpassing him defensively whereas it seems less and likely that Juolevi is going to be able to be a noteworthy contributor offensively in the NHL.

 

While I still hope Juolevi will be able to find a way to become a complete Dman at the NHL level, it increasingly looks like he'll have to do that in a lower depth role and fight his way back up.  Juolevi looks like he should be a decent defensive D in the NHL but his skating is still noticeably sub par at times which, to me, means he's going to need to not only watch his back for guys like Rathbone but also other defensive D who may be as effective but who can skate better.  Hunt is an example of someone who, despite lacking Juolevi's size, has proven experience of being an effective NHL D in a depth role.

[King Heffy]

36 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Of course Juolevi's injury has held him back, to the point where he's been arguably overtaken by other players. The problem is that this narrative about Rathbone being underappreciated is a major exaggeration. Rathbone is good, and his performance in camp has arguably helped his case more so than Juolevi. That being said, Juolevi provides something that Rathbone doesn't - the PK. Juolevi made some pretty good defensive plays, including one where he saved a goal by breaking up the pass.
 

For all the things that Rathbone gets praised for, Juolevi is actually the one who is underappreciated. He has never been flashy, so it's hard to argue that he'd "look better" than Rathbone. But you have to look beyond the offense of Rathbone - does he play a complete game?

There are questions about Hughes' game and the fact that his defensive game needs work - is Rathbone at the stage that Hughes is? You have to ask these questions about how Rathbone will fit into the roster, in light of these supposed defensive deficiencies. It takes a lot of time for defensemen to come and play hard NHL minutes.

Defensive defensemen are underappreciated here in general.  See the Poolman signing thread for proof.

Edited September 28, 2021 by King Heffy

[Pure961089]

44 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Of course Juolevi's injury has held him back, to the point where he's been arguably overtaken by other players. The problem is that this narrative about Rathbone being underappreciated is a major exaggeration. Rathbone is good, and his performance in camp has arguably helped his case more so than Juolevi. That being said, Juolevi provides something that Rathbone doesn't - the PK. Juolevi made some pretty good defensive plays, including one where he saved a goal by breaking up the pass.
 

For all the things that Rathbone gets praised for, Juolevi is actually the one who is underappreciated. He has never been flashy, so it's hard to argue that he'd "look better" than Rathbone. But you have to look beyond the offense of Rathbone - does he play a complete game?

There are questions about Hughes' game and the fact that his defensive game needs work - is Rathbone at the stage that Hughes is? You have to ask these questions about how Rathbone will fit into the roster, in light of these supposed defensive deficiencies. It takes a lot of time for defensemen to come and play hard NHL minutes.

This is my thoughts on Juolevi in a nut shell.  The dude signs a 1 year deal for the league minimum for an opportunity to prove himself.  And he comes out of the gate crawling on all fours.  

[mordekai]

52 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Of course Juolevi's injury has held him back, to the point where he's been arguably overtaken by other players. The problem is that this narrative about Rathbone being underappreciated is a major exaggeration. Rathbone is good, and his performance in camp has arguably helped his case more so than Juolevi. That being said, Juolevi provides something that Rathbone doesn't - the PK. Juolevi made some pretty good defensive plays, including one where he saved a goal by breaking up the pass.
 

For all the things that Rathbone gets praised for, Juolevi is actually the one who is underappreciated. He has never been flashy, so it's hard to argue that he'd "look better" than Rathbone. But you have to look beyond the offense of Rathbone - does he play a complete game?

There are questions about Hughes' game and the fact that his defensive game needs work - is Rathbone at the stage that Hughes is? You have to ask these questions about how Rathbone will fit into the roster, in light of these supposed defensive deficiencies. It takes a lot of time for defensemen to come and play hard NHL minutes.

Is kinda ridiculous for people to compare a smooth skating playmaking defender vs a 2-way player and say the pmd is way ahead just because rathbone looks fancy with the puck

 

Pretty sure rathbone can’t knock down tkachuk like oj did last year without having any forward momentum 

[Pure961089]

56 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Of course Juolevi's injury has held him back, to the point where he's been arguably overtaken by other players. The problem is that this narrative about Rathbone being underappreciated is a major exaggeration. Rathbone is good, and his performance in camp has arguably helped his case more so than Juolevi. That being said, Juolevi provides something that Rathbone doesn't - the PK. Juolevi made some pretty good defensive plays, including one where he saved a goal by breaking up the pass.
 

For all the things that Rathbone gets praised for, Juolevi is actually the one who is underappreciated. He has never been flashy, so it's hard to argue that he'd "look better" than Rathbone. But you have to look beyond the offense of Rathbone - does he play a complete game?

There are questions about Hughes' game and the fact that his defensive game needs work - is Rathbone at the stage that Hughes is? You have to ask these questions about how Rathbone will fit into the roster, in light of these supposed defensive deficiencies. It takes a lot of time for defensemen to come and play hard NHL minutes.

You and me are on 2 opposite sides of the same coin.  I really think based of a simple eye test that believe it or not Rathbone is actually better than Juolevi defensively.  That’s surprised me too believe me.  When I looked at Rathbones game closely I saw how underrated, dare I say surprisingly good he was defensively. I’d never have seen it if I were mentally closed to the possibility. It’s his lateral movement and active stick that sets him apart.  You can teach someone to be physical but you can’t teach skating like Rathbone. He’s smooth like Hughes. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Pure961089
Spelling

[Pure961089]

3 minutes ago, mordekai said:

Is kinda ridiculous for people to compare a smooth skating playmaking defender vs a 2-way player and say the pmd is way ahead just because rathbone looks fancy with the puck

 

Pretty sure rathbone can’t knock down tkachuk like oj did last year without having any forward momentum 

No, but that wouldn’t be their role would it.  Myers is 6’8 heavy D, ELO is a big D, Poolman is a big 6’4 d as well as Schenn and Hamonic.  As long as there is a stay at home physical defensman on the pairing and the forwards coming back to help out the d  I like our defence way more now than I did before preseason.   Virtanen and Gaudette were clueless defensively. I think we’ve improved substantially in the bottom 6 defensively with replacing those 2 with Dickinson and Hoglander (the takeaway king)

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, Googlie said:

Corrected for you ......  

Lol does that change the fact that he's a 7th defensive? He's good veteran leadership and that's about it. He's not gonna be capable of playing lots of PK minutes on a pk unit that's already sub 80% kill rate 

[Pure961089]

12 hours ago, stawns said:

Hes just too loose in his own end.  When he gets up against good NHL'ers that style is going to get exploited.  

 

I'm not sure why you picked a clip that shows him up around the blue line and then giving the puck right to a Calgary dman.

 

That said, he was better defensively tonight, but against significantly inferior talent to last night

He doesn’t have to be if he’s paired with a physical defensive d.  Poolman would be the perfect fit.  Rathbone can run and gun with our forwards.  But it really doesn’t matter how good or how hard our defencemen try if the forwards don’t come back and help out.  Gaudette and Virtanen are no longer on tue team, they were terrible defensively.  Our bottom 6 has improved significantly. 

[mordekai]

7 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

No, but that wouldn’t be their role would it.  Myers is 6’8 heavy D, ELO is a big D, Poolman is a big 6’4 d as well as Schenn and Hamonic.  As long as there is a stay at home physical defensman on the pairing and the forwards coming back to help out the d  I like our defence way more now than I did before preseason.   Virtanen and Gaudette were clueless defensively. I think we’ve improved substantially in the bottom 6 defensively with replacing those 2 with Dickinson and Hoglander (the takeaway king)

Usually the 3rd lhd needs to play pk

in this case rathbone would need to play pk but he doesnt

it leaves the team vulnerable

for example, if oel takes a penalty, Canucks doesn’t even have a legit left handed defender for pk 

what pick between Hughes or Rathbone? Lol

[Pure961089]

2 minutes ago, mordekai said:

Usually the 3rd lhd needs to play pk

in this case rathbone would need to play pk but he doesnt

it leaves the team vulnerable

for example, if oel takes a penalty, Canucks doesn’t even have a legit left handed defender for pk 

what pick between Hughes or Rathbone? Lol

Green likes OEL as the penalty killer.  I know usually your #1 is on the pp but he likes Hughes.  Any other coach and you’d probably be right hehe

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, Pure961089 said:

I think Poolman is going to surprise a lot of people and Schenn has played well with Hughes before.  The Canucks haven’t even reached their final form yet.  Their still evolving.   We don’t know how good or how bad this team really is.  And using last year as some kind of barometer with the Canucks having to play 19 games in their last 24 days heavily skews reality.  The Canucks were a lot better than their stats told and this year they’ve just added skill.  The Canucks will be the surprise team this year but I won’t be surprised if the Canucks finish 3rd in their division.    
 

You don’t think Rathbone and Hughes can coexist on the same team?  why? Because they’re both under 6 feet?   

I dont think they can come exist on the canucks because we don't have 2 capable partners for the 2 of them. Poolman might work with 1 of them and then what? Sure schenn worked with hughes like 3 seasons ago in what? A couple of games? Hughes is going to play a lot of 5v5 and pp minutes.. if schenn is partner with hughes that means he's gonna get lots of 5v5 mins on top of all the pk mins.. schenn is not a guy that can give u 18-20min a game guy.. theres reason he bounced around as a 6-7th defenseman around the league lol. Playing him as a top 4 min defenseman is disaster waiting to happen in a 82 game season or are we planning on double shifting poolman ever 2nd 3rd shift to play with both hughes and rathbone? Poolman never been a big min guy and I doubt we want him in the 22+ min range. As of right now the canucks have poolman as a defense first type of player.. if hamonic is playing sure Rathbone could work. But if hamonic is not playing then no a defense of Rathbone and hughes would not work as it gives this team 0 options on pk and defense pairing. And if any one of the defenseman even miss a game or 2.. demko is going to have a fire sale in front of his net.

[Pure961089]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

Of course Juolevi's injury has held him back, to the point where he's been arguably overtaken by other players. The problem is that this narrative about Rathbone being underappreciated is a major exaggeration. Rathbone is good, and his performance in camp has arguably helped his case more so than Juolevi. That being said, Juolevi provides something that Rathbone doesn't - the PK. Juolevi made some pretty good defensive plays, including one where he saved a goal by breaking up the pass.
 

For all the things that Rathbone gets praised for, Juolevi is actually the one who is underappreciated. He has never been flashy, so it's hard to argue that he'd "look better" than Rathbone. But you have to look beyond the offense of Rathbone - does he play a complete game?

There are questions about Hughes' game and the fact that his defensive game needs work - is Rathbone at the stage that Hughes is? You have to ask these questions about how Rathbone will fit into the roster, in light of these supposed defensive deficiencies. It takes a lot of time for defensemen to come and play hard NHL minutes.

Yeah, Green likes OEL for the pk.  And we have him locked in for a while. I think Rathbone and Hughes are going to get a lot more icetime than people think seeing as how much Green likes Rathbone.  

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

Of course Juolevi's injury has held him back, to the point where he's been arguably overtaken by other players. The problem is that this narrative about Rathbone being underappreciated is a major exaggeration. Rathbone is good, and his performance in camp has arguably helped his case more so than Juolevi. That being said, Juolevi provides something that Rathbone doesn't - the PK. Juolevi made some pretty good defensive plays, including one where he saved a goal by breaking up the pass.
 

For all the things that Rathbone gets praised for, Juolevi is actually the one who is underappreciated. He has never been flashy, so it's hard to argue that he'd "look better" than Rathbone. But you have to look beyond the offense of Rathbone - does he play a complete game?

There are questions about Hughes' game and the fact that his defensive game needs work - is Rathbone at the stage that Hughes is? You have to ask these questions about how Rathbone will fit into the roster, in light of these supposed defensive deficiencies. It takes a lot of time for defensemen to come and play hard NHL minutes.

It's actually funny when you mention it because @Pure961089 is doing the exact same thing to OJ he's accusing others of doing to Rathbone, when in reality Rathbone is being overhyped, if anything. As you allude to there are a lot of questions defensively to answer.

[Pure961089]

4 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

I dont think they can come exist on the canucks because we don't have 2 capable partners for the 2 of them. Poolman might work with 1 of them and then what? Sure schenn worked with hughes like 3 seasons ago in what? A couple of games? Hughes is going to play a lot of 5v5 and pp minutes.. if schenn is partner with hughes that means he's gonna get lots of 5v5 mins on top of all the pk mins.. schenn is not a guy that can give u 18-20min a game guy.. theres reason he bounced around as a 6-7th defenseman around the league lol. Playing him as a top 4 min defenseman is disaster waiting to happen in a 82 game season or are we planning on double shifting poolman ever 2nd 3rd shift to play with both hughes and rathbone? Poolman never been a big min guy and I doubt we want him in the 22+ min range. As of right now the canucks have poolman as a defense first type of player.. if hamonic is playing sure Rathbone could work. But if hamonic is not playing then no a defense of Rathbone and hughes would not work as it gives this team 0 options on pk and defense pairing. And if any one of the defenseman even miss a game or 2.. demko is going to have a fire sale in front of his net.

Some good points. Green would have to work some magic.  

[FaninMex]

2 hours ago, Googlie said:

And remember, at the tail end of last season, Green did have Hughes and Rathbone out together on the PP

 

My question relates more to the penalty killing.  Why does a D man have to be big and hefty?  There no hitting, the bigger the D man trying to clear the crease the more the goalie is blocked out.   Surely an active stick, good wheels and great anticipation are more important attributes? Takeaways, getting possession, are much more important on PK-ing than on other configurations .  And who, among defencemen (ignoring Rafferty'z one game) led the team in takeaways last season?  Hughes, almost 1/2 as many again as #2, Myers (1.59/60 mins vs 1.08/60)

 

He was last in blocked shots per 60 mins, so if that is important for a D then that's a big minus. (Ignoring Brisebois' one game) Hamonic led at 6.60 per 60 mins, followed by Edler at 6.51

 

One thing for sure, Hughes would have no trouble clearing deep - I remember hearing on 650SN he led the entire league in icings by a defenceman (those slapshot passes that our forwards couldn't pick up)

Tanev was not the biggest guy but he was great at PK. 

Fearlessly blocked shots.

Position

Tying up sticks

[Pure961089]

5 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

It's actually funny when you mention it because @Pure961089 is doing the exact same thing to OJ he's accusing others of doing to Rathbone, when in reality Rathbone is being overhyped, if anything. As you allude to there are a lot of questions defensively to answer.

We live in a multiverse of opinions.  I must be a Variant.  

[DrJockitch]

7 minutes ago, FaninMex said:

Tanev was not the biggest guy but he was great at PK. 

Fearlessly blocked shots.

Position

Tying up sticks

Reach is certainly of a lot of value and there are a lot of net battles on PK, clearing out screens. 

[48MPHSlapShot]

I like that we're all just assuming Hughes is going to be signed and in the lineup by the time the regular season starts.