[Rumour] J.T. Miller Trade/Contract Talks

[Coconuts]

Just now, Alflives said:

And not having and elite core as good as several other teams’ key core is why we need a better supporting cast than those other teams.  We have Demko as our one guy who is better than what almost every other team has in goal.  Hughes is great, but has no support from his partner 5 on 5.  (We need a Devon Toews, or get ?Tanev back). Petey is a very good 200 foot player.  Bit our key core, even with Demko, is lesser than several other teams’ key core.  And our support players (especially on D) are way behind the top teams.  

Don't get me wrong, the Oil are waaaay more top heavy than I'd ever like us to be, but I will absolutely sing Draisaitl's praises and put up with any guff that comes my way for doing so. He's exactly what I'd like in a hockey player, minus the spearing guys in the balls bit. Big, strong, faceoff ace, elite talent. I'd take him over McDavid every day of the week. 

 

But yeah, our young core has talent and we've got a phenom in Hughes. But yeah, our D needs work, especially on that right side. We don't have a single RD I'd view as a long term asset. They're all expendable imo, placeholders. And I like Schenn, Myers, and the rest but I'm not gonna pretend they're young Dmen or more than what they currently are. 

 

I'm firmly on the build around the young core boat, which is why I'm so adamant on trading Miller.

[Gurn]

10 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said:

Who gives a Marchand what Calgary thought about their whiny smurf?

Thousands of Canuck fans, that don't want to see the same thing happen here.

[ilduce39]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

And not having and elite core as good as several other teams’ key core is why we need a better supporting cast than those other teams.  We have Demko as our one guy who is better than what almost every other team has in goal.  Hughes is great, but has no support from his partner 5 on 5.  (We need a Devon Toews, or get ?Tanev back). Petey is a very good 200 foot player.  Bit our key core, even with Demko, is lesser than several other teams’ key core.  And our support players (especially on D) are way behind the top teams.  

It’s a superstar driven league.  The juice you get from hyper focusing on contracts and depth is the last 15-20%. For some reason fans on social media only see this area of the journey.  Maybe because individual development seems out of their hands but, hey, so are contracts, depth and cap efficiency.
 

If your stars aren’t up to snuff it’s irrelevant and for me that’s the big question right now - are Petey, Hughes, Horvat, Demko and some of the wingers ready to take the next step?

Edited July 19, 2022 by ilduce39

[Goal:thecup]

4 hours ago, Alflives said:

We can make inference though.  Miller rents here.  Miller is building a home in Pittsburgh.  Miller’s wife is pregnant with their third child.  Their family support network is there, and not here.  Which is more likely, Miller signs long term here, and continues to rent and be far from home, or Miller leaves as a UFA and signs with a team on the east coast and is close to home?  

 

Those are not the only options.

If we are not going to re-sign JT, JR will trade him on or before the TDL.

Infer not; just listen to what the man says.

We have had no indication, zero alarm bells, etc, to indicate he is not a man of his word.

[Mustard Tiger]

31 minutes ago, BPA said:

I thought I read somewhere that if you take away the coaching bump (think it was a few weeks or so) wins, then the Canucks win % was just 0.500.  Something like that.

And over the course of the season that pace would have been good enough to surpass the Kings at the very least. We are what we are. A bubble playoff / middle of the pack club

[Goal:thecup]

5 minutes ago, gurn said:

Thousands of Canuck fans, that don't want to see the same thing happen here.

'It' is not happening here. - JR (actually just me paraphrasing)

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Don't get me wrong, the Oil are waaaay more top heavy than I'd ever like us to be, but I will absolutely sing Draisaitl's praises and put up with any guff that comes my way for doing so. He's exactly what I'd like in a hockey player, minus the spearing guys in the balls bit. Big, strong, faceoff ace, elite talent. I'd take him over McDavid every day of the week. 

 

But yeah, our young core has talent and we've got a phenom in Hughes. But yeah, our D needs work, especially on that right side. We don't have a single RD I'd view as a long term asset. They're all expendable imo, placeholders. And I like Schenn, Myers, and the rest but I'm not gonna pretend they're young Dmen or more than what they currently are. 

 

I'm firmly on the build around the young core boat, which is why I'm so adamant on trading Miller.

Totally agree.  Trading Miller will help us improve our support group.  Which is what we need to do if we hope to compete against teams with better key core players.  Our ace in the hole is Demko.  If we could improve our Right side D and play a better defensive structure, then we can beat most teams in a series.  Miller out now or at the 2023 TDL should help.  Myers, next summer and 2024 TDL will have positive value.  I think the needed change on D will take a couple years.  In two years I think we see Hughes OEL and Rathbone.  And three new right side guys.  

[BPA]

Just now, Mustard Tiger said:

And over the course of the season that pace would have been good enough to surpass the Kings at the very least. We are what we are. A bubble playoff / middle of the pack club

Yes I would agree with that assessment.

[48MPHSlapShot]

1 minute ago, ilduce39 said:

If your stars aren’t up to snuff it’s irrelevant and for me that’s the big question right now - are Petey, Hughes, Horvat, Demko and some of the wingers ready to take the next step?

A big part of knowing how good your stars are is having the right complementary players alongside them. Having the right player on a line with a player could conceivably be the difference between a 70 point player and a 90 point player. Same goes for defensive partners, which defencemen are feeding the forwards and vice versa.

[Mustard Tiger]

31 minutes ago, gurn said:

Me too- the Canucks got to the cusp of being a play off team, under Bruce and then lost the games that mattered.

Nah. Having the historically worst PK of all time for 2 months killed us. Not losing a handful of games at the end of the year to deeper actual playoff teams. Can't start off 2 months behind everyone else and blame the last 2 weeks of the season imo

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

It’s a superstar driven league.  The juice you get from hyper focusing on contracts and depth is the last 15-20%. For some reason fans on social media only see this area of the journey.  Maybe because individual development seems out of their hands but, hey, so are contracts, depth and cap efficiency.
 

If your stars aren’t up to snuff it’s irrelevant and for me that’s the big question right now - are Petey, Hughes, Horvat, Demko and some of the wingers ready to take the next step?

I think JR identified our key core as Demko, Hughes, Petey.  IMHAO Bo (although an important piece) is a support player. It’s why we need to move Miller.  We just can’t have him eating a key core piece contract in two years when he’s more playing like a supporting guy.  

[Coconuts]

Just now, Alflives said:

Totally agree.  Trading Miller will help us improve our support group.  Which is what we need to do if we hope to compete against teams with better key core players.  Our ace in the hole is Demko.  If we could improve our Right side D and play a better defensive structure, then we can beat most teams in a series.  Miller out now or at the 2023 TDL should help.  Myers, next summer and 2024 TDL will have positive value.  I think the needed change on D will take a couple years.  In two years I think we see Hughes OEL and Rathbone.  And three new right side guys.  

Agreed, I've never been under the impression we were going to see a single offseason roster turnaround, it'll likely take a few years to find the right pieces. And given our shallow prospect pool and lack of cap space we don't exactly have plenty of options, any trade for a top 4D likely costs us a top six forward if assets aren't gained somehow. We're not a team that should be moving top picks either, we need to do more of what we did at the draft and use our picks to draft our own talent. 

 

Bringing in complimentary UFA's is great, but the best players are typically acquired via drafting. Plus, we'll need cost controlled ELC talent stepping in as guys like Pettersson, Podz, and Demko move on to their next deals. We have some interesting prospects but we lack blue chip talent and while we've got some players who may push sooner than later they're likely pushing for bottom six/bottom pairing/depth roles as opposed to impact player roles. 

 

We need to free up cap going forward and be extremely wary of any deal handing out significant term. I still say our window is at least four years out. 

[Goal:thecup]

2 minutes ago, Mustard Tiger said:

And over the course of the season that pace would have been good enough to surpass the Kings at the very least. We are what we are. A bubble playoff / middle of the pack club

Agreed.

And adding, that this club is on an upward trajectory (imo, but also in others' opinions as well).

It is in a transition year, sorting out the bad, and paying off the old punishments, and which has made quite a few nice adds in the short time we have had to get to understand how this new management team works.

We are going to make the playoffs.

And, whether anybody likes it or not, the old adage still holds, make the playoffs, and anything can happen.

[DeNiro]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

This....is the exact same roster that Boudreau and we had last year.  We signed two actual NHL bodies that's it.  A 4th liner and a potential Pearson replacement that's it.

We know what it can do.

No we don’t and no it’s not.

 

Don’t need to reply much more than that…

[ilduce39]

7 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

A big part of knowing how good your stars are is having the right complementary players alongside them. Having the right player on a line with a player could conceivably be the difference between a 70 point player and a 90 point player. Same goes for defensive partners, which defencemen are feeding the forwards and vice versa.

The irony here is that Hughes and Demko are the ones showing they’re at the right level - one playing with a guy making just about league minimum and the other playing behind that much maligned group. The third I’d say would be Miller who stepped up playing a lot with Pearson last year.
 

Petey, Bo, Brock, Garland, Podkolzin, Mikhayev, Hoglander are about to play on one of the deeper forward groups in the league.  They need to put together 82 games of two-way playoff caliber hockey.  

[ilduce39]

11 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I think JR identified our key core as Demko, Hughes, Petey.  IMHAO Bo (although an important piece) is a support player. It’s why we need to move Miller.  We just can’t have him eating a key core piece contract in two years when he’s more playing like a supporting guy.  

Yes I still think he’ll be traded.  Willing to trust management here in being patient for the right deal.

[BC_Hawk]

13 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

A big part of knowing how good your stars are is having the right complementary players alongside them. Having the right player on a line with a player could conceivably be the difference between a 70 point player and a 90 point player. Same goes for defensive partners, which defencemen are feeding the forwards and vice versa.

I agree, It will be interesting to see how Petterson plays with a big fast fwd in Ilya on his leftside. Ilya-Elias-Brock/Connor would be spectacular

 

[BC_Hawk]

3 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

The irony here is that Hughes and Demko are the ones showing they’re at the right level - one playing with a guy making just about league minimum and the other playing behind that much maligned group. The third I’d say would be Miller who stepped up playing a lot with Pearson last year.
 

Petey, Bo, Brock, Garland, Podkolzin, Mikhayev, Hoglander are about to play on one of the deeper forward groups in the league.  They need to put together 82 games of two-way playoff caliber hockey.  

I thought some of Miller's best games were when he was away from Petterson. Podz-Miller-Garland was a great line form a good span late in the season

[Coconuts]

14 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said:

Agreed.

And adding, that this club is on an upward trajectory (imo, but also in others' opinions as well).

It is in a transition year, sorting out the bad, and paying off the old punishments, and which has made quite a few nice adds in the short time we have had to get to understand how this new management team works.

We are going to make the playoffs.

And, whether anybody likes it or not, the old adage still holds, make the playoffs, and anything can happen.

The problem with that adage is while anything can happen, miracles runs ain't likely. I hate the idea of us trying to just sneak in and somehow pull and LA when the odds of that ever happening aren't ever going to be in our favour regardless of which metric you use. 

 

I'd rather build for being sustainably competitive as opposed to trying to just get over the line, I'd rather build a team that's viewed as a team that could do some real damage as opposed to pinning our hopes on "anything can happen". Almost every team we've seen hoist that cup since we lost in the finals has consistently been one of the better teams in the league. People like to point to the St. Louis turnaround while ignoring that said team was always better than it had been prior to said turnaround. In the years leading up to their cup win they put up 44, 46, 49, and 51, and 52 wins. Even the Kings went 46-28-8 in 2014. 

 

Bottom line is it's the teams who've consistently been top teams who are the teams that win more often than not. The only anomaly in recent memory is the 2012 Kings. 

 

We tried just getting over the finish line to qualify for the big race repeatedly under Benning and have wallowed in mediocrity for the most part, I want management to be patient and build us a team that can be a top team for years. That'll be what results in our best chance of winning a cup, and if that means I've gotta be patient than so be it. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Coconuts

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

The problem with that adage is while anything can happen, miracles runs ain't likely. I hate the idea of us trying to just sneak in and somehow pull and LA when the odds of that ever happening aren't ever going to be in our favour regardless of which metric you use. 

 

I'd rather build for being sustainably competitive as opposed to trying to just get over the line,

we can do both. 

 

As it stands today, our F group looks pretty good, we have a top goalie and an average d group. We have a super thin prospect base. 

 

We can't make up for that prospect thinness with just a Miller deal, its going to take 3 or 4 years of drafting, and then continued drafting, to have what you're talking about. Its what Benning always promised to do but never did. 

 

JR/PA are not Benning. They didn't burn picks, they actually brought free (from an asset pov) players in. If they continue to do that we'll be fine. In the meantime we should have a team thats playoff ready and we can bring kids into that kind of team.