[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[Coconuts]

42 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Detroit willing to pay Larkin 8M, he wants 9M.

 

Larkins produced a tiny bit more than Bo in some seasons but certainly not this one. To those who sat Bo is worth 7M, this is just what star centers get now.

 

Larkin at 9M is a bit outrageous, I think Bo and Larkin are both with 8M.

Just wait until the cap jumps in two or three years and 2C's begin to routinely bring in 8-10M as the price for all-stars creeps up even higher. Who do folks think the cap is going to go to as it rises? Do they really think the number brackets won't just rise? Of course top players are always going to get bigger pieces of the pie. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Coconuts

[.Naslund]

10 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Real poor, management had NO reason to resign Miller last year. He wasn't in his contract year so could have easily waited 6 months. I wonder if it was pressure from the fans or media or his agent which caved Allvin's rookie brain in and forced him into splashing cash out.

 

Any sensible person could see that Miller's year was out of the norm. He put up 99 points playing under two very loose, offensive coaches and on a bad defensive team with a fire Demko making their +/- all look better than they seemed. Any smart person would say that there's no way Miller would reproduce a season like this. At the end of last year we had these options:

 

1 - trade Miller. He pumped his value up so much that this was arguably out of the question but they could have taken the risk of a cheaper/lower value deal. Hard to trade a 99pt guy though to be fair.

 

2 - resign him after a career year when we didn't have to, it's not like his contract was up? Pay high?

 

3 - wait another 6-12 months and then decide. A ballsy or savvy GM would have done this. There would be pressure of course, but Allvin simply doesn't look like the type who can deal with pressure. Either Miller would have slipped to 60pt production, 80pt or 100pts.

 

If he dropped to 60pts, we could trade him for a cheaper deal easily or let him walk or resign him to a 5M deal.

 

If he scored at 80pts or PPG again we could sign him for a prospect + pick or get him resigned at say 7M or let him walk.

 

If he miraculously scored 100pts again (what are the odds, honestly, considering his past?) the he'd probably have priced himself out of a trade (or is there really such a thing? Bo's doing it now and he's likely gone...), or had to resign him to a stupid amount like 9-10M or let him walk.

 

 

Clearly Allvin was worried about the latter. That is just bad foresight. What are the chances a career sloppy defensively one way center/winger 60pt scorer drops 99pts and then repeats it? I'd take those odds. Allvin was worried he'd score 99+ again in which case he'd be in a tough situation, but as anyone can see, the chances of that were low.

 

 

This is a classic case of a scared rookie GM. Don't care if JR is behind the scenes or not, no smart savvy GM would have busted 8M on a guy after a career year who isn't even in their contract year when he has his captain to resign the next year. That sums it up, dreadful management of the two centers.

What PPG in the NHL would sign for 7 million currently? If he was a UFA he’d pull 8.5-9 for sure. We signed him for 8 which is decent. Any sensible person can also see that Bo is having an outlier season as well in a UFA year. Horvat at this point is OVERRATED. 

 

22 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Horvat is a milk popsicle?

 

He's a 2 time all star, one of the top face-off guys in the league, 30+ goal scoring NHL captain.

 

Stop.

He’s also a pending UFA performing way outside of his norm in what appears to be an outlier season and is looking to cash in.  Kasper is cheap and has 7 years of team control due to being an RFA. So cheap cost controlled, team controlled high potential asset or an over performing expensive possible half season rental

[DeepThoughts]

1 minute ago, .Naslund said:

What PPG in the NHL would sign for 7 million currently? If he was a UFA he’d pull 8.5-9 for sure. We signed him for 8 which is decent. Any sensible person can also see that Bo is having an outlier season as well in a UFA year. Horvat at this point is OVERRATED. 

 

He’s also a pending UFA performing way outside of his norm in what appears to be an outlier season and is looking to cash in.  Kasper is cheap and has 7 years of team control due to being an RFA. So cheap cost controlled, team controlled high potential asset or an over performing expensive possible half season rental

That's what I'm talking about. We would be lucky to pull that deal for Kasper. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

1 minute ago, .Naslund said:

What PPG in the NHL would sign for 7 million currently? If he was a UFA he’d pull 8.5-9 for sure. We signed him for 8 which is decent. Any sensible person can also see that Bo is having an outlier season as well in a UFA year. Horvat at this point is OVERRATED.

 

I agree signing Bo to a monster 8x8 deal is risky, but I'd rather go with that risk than the Miller deal. At least Bo brings other things to the team like faceoffs and decent center play, and his play will likely regress but he'd still contribute and be a solid 3C as he gets older later in his career. As for Miller, a lot of his scoring was skill/speed and off the rush, and sloppy play defensively, and none of that ages well.

 

This is the problem with ELCs and then early contracts, they always expire in a player's late 20s when they hit a peak, then demand a stupidly monstrous contract and end up weighing the team down in the final 3-4 years.

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, .Naslund said:

 

He’s also a pending UFA performing way outside of his norm in what appears to be an outlier season and is looking to cash in.  Kasper is cheap and has 7 years of team control due to being an RFA. So cheap cost controlled, team controlled high potential asset or an over performing expensive possible half season rental

Doesn't make him any less valuable. I didn't even mention anything about his "outlier' season there (other than perhaps the peripherally related 2nd all-star nod). This season isn't what makes Horvat valuable.

 

Fact is Horvat is an extremely valuable, sought after, highly regarded player, at a valuable position. Career season or not.

 

Kasper is a good prospect, but he doesn't come close to equalling the value of Horvat. ELC/RFA value or otherwise. That's simply not how this works. High level, legit NHL players with consistent, high level track records will ALWAYS be worth more.

 

Look what an older, more expensive, less productive, with an NMC, Giroux returned last year. Horvat should easily garner more than that.

[DeepThoughts]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Doesn't make him any less valuable. I didn't even mention anything about his "outlier' season there (other than perhaps the peripherally related 2nd all-star nod). This season isn't what makes Horvat valuable.

 

Fact is Horvat is an extremely valuable, sought after, highly regarded player, at a valuable position. Career season or not.

 

Kasper is a good prospect, but he doesn't come close to equalling the value of Horvat. ELC/RFA value or otherwise. That's simply not how this works. High level, legit NHL players with consistent, high level track records will ALWAYS be worth more.

 

Look what an older, more expensive, less productive, with an NMC, Giroux returned last year. Horvat should easily garner more than that.

If Det were able to sign Horvat as part of a deal for Kasper I would see Det adding. As a rental, not so sure. 

[.Naslund]

7 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Doesn't make him any less valuable. I didn't even mention anything about his "outlier' season there (other than perhaps the peripherally related 2nd all-star nod). This season isn't what makes Horvat valuable.

 

Fact is Horvat is an extremely valuable, sought after, highly regarded player, at a valuable position. Career season or not.

 

Kasper is a good prospect, but he doesn't come close to equalling the value of Horvat. ELC/RFA value or otherwise. That's simply not how this works. High level, legit NHL players with consistent, high level track records will ALWAYS be worth more.

 

Look what an older, more expensive, less productive, with an NMC, Giroux returned last year. Horvat should easily garner more than that.

No player is traded for equal value in the NHL. This is something this board needs to recognize and be prepared for. We’re not trading a rental for other team’s top prospects. That’s the bottom line. We need to temper our expectations. This isn’t the NBA. 
 

Claude Giroux was an offensive dynamo starving to win with a track record far superior to Horvat. If we get similar value to him that’d be great. People are expecting a return greater than DeBrincat

Edited January 29, 2023 by .Naslund

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, DeepThoughts said:

If Det were able to sign Horvat as part of a deal for Kasper I would see Det adding. As a rental, not so sure. 

Then they won't get him. Because he's worth more than Kasper alone, even as a rental.

 

Though I will grant you that I don't see DET dealing for him unless there's an extension in place or at least discussed/verbally agreed upon. Neither they, or Horvat have reason to do so without one.

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, .Naslund said:

No player is traded for equal value in the NHL. This is something this board needs to recognize and be prepared for. We’re not trading a rental for other team’s top prospects. That’s the bottom line. We need to temper our expectations. This isn’t the NBA. 

Kasper for Horvat is not "equal value". At all. Nevermind us adding as the other poster suggested.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by aGENT

[DeepThoughts]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Kasper for Horvat is not "equal value". At all. Nevermind us adding as the other poster suggested.

 

Yes, it's not equal value. Detroit would be getting fleeced....

[aGENT]

Just now, DeepThoughts said:

Yes, it's not equal value. Detroit would be getting fleeced....

That's a thin puddle of a thought. I'm sorry you appear to actually believe that lol.

[Claiborne55]

If Yzerman wants Horvat... then that is all we need to know.... we have to keep Horvat. 

[Coconuts]

18 minutes ago, DeepThoughts said:

Yes, it's not equal value. Detroit would be getting fleeced....

Horvat is an established NHL 2C at a minimum and a 1C on some teams around the league. He'd be Minnesota's 1C for example.

 

Kaspar is a recent 8OA pick who hasn't proven anything at the NHL level and who is very much still just potential at this point. The Canucks absolutely lose a 1-1 trade even with Horvat as a rental. 

 

That being said, it depends on the market. One poster was pointing out what Giroux got in return but context matters, the general consensus was that Philly didn't get enough for him. Giroux returned a 2024 1st, an Owen Tippet who hadn't shown much, and a 2023 3rd. Giroux was also 34, a completely different animal than a soon to be 28 year old Horvat. Horvat offers more longevity than Giroux did and thus will have teams in different stages looking at him than Giroux did. Most teams likely wouldn't have been interested in handing Giroux significant term, that's likely not the case with Horvat. 

 

By the sounds of it management still wants to sign Horvat and hasn't allowed other teams to speak to his agent, if they get to a point where they know Horvat won't be staying that'll likely shift as they won't be hurting their own negotiations with him by having other teams offer him more. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Coconuts

[Westcoastcanucks777]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

Your lack of fluid control is disturbing 

[grandmaster]

[DeepThoughts]

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Horvat is an established NHL 2C at a minimum and a 1C on some teams around the league. He'd be Minnesota's 1C for example.

 

Kaspar is a recent 8OA pick who hasn't proven anything at the NHL level and who is very much still just potential at this point. The Canucks absolutely lose a 1-1 trade even with Horvat as a rental. 

 

That being said, it depends on the market. One poster was pointing out what Giroux got in return but context matters, the general consensus was that Philly didn't get enough for him. Giroux returned a 2024 1st, an Owen Tippet who hadn't shown much, and a 2023 3rd. Giroux was also 34, a completely different animal than a soon to be 28 year old Horvat. Horvat offers more longevity than Giroux did and thus will have teams in different stages looking at him than Giroux did. Most teams likely wouldn't have been interested in handing Giroux significant term, that's likely not the case with Horvat. 

 

By the sounds of it management still wants to sign Horvat and hasn't allowed other teams to speak to his agent, if they get to a point where they know Horvat won't be staying that'll likely shift as they won't be hurting their own negotiations with him by having other teams offer him more. 

Would you trade Horvat for Zegras in his draft plus 1 year? It’s not that different. 

[Westcoastcanucks777]

3 hours ago, HKSR said:

Foote is coaching here now.  Wouldn't surprise me one bit if one of his sons ends up being traded here.

We will also find Tocchet and Gonchars sons too

[Elias Pettersson]

23 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Kasper for Horvat is not "equal value". At all. Nevermind us adding as the other poster suggested.

 

Depends on how highly Allvin rates Kasper.  Schneider at the time was a top 5 goalie in the league and his return was the 9th pick, which turned into Horvat.  So Horvat turning into the 8th pick and Marco Kasper seems to be on the same line as the Schneider trade.  One could argue Schneider had more value than Horvat when he was traded as well.

[Ted Lasso]

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, DeepThoughts said:

Would you trade Horvat for Zegras in his draft plus 1 year? It’s not that different. 

Would I trade Horvat for a Zegras who hadn't shown anything yet? No. Would I trade Horvat for a Zegras who put up 13 points in 24 games? Also no.