[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[bishopshodan]

He's gonna re-sign with the Canucks.

 

Makes sense for all. He's too good, has a captaincy, at the right age, and a team that is strong down the middle has a good foundation to continue growing. 

 

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

We have next to no prospects, and Guenther is looking like a fantastic winger. We have no cap space, if that trade doesn't happen we would have ample room to make moves to make this team better.

 

OEL is an aging player, who's already regressed since we got him, on a massive contract. Garland is a good player, but has been a terrible fit for this team.

 

What's good about the OEL trade?

OEL is a legit top 3 dman and was the best dman on the team last season.  He started out slow this year, but is now on pace for 40ish points, while being a good defensive player as well.  Garland is one of the most effective possession fwds on the team, goes to all the dirty areas and draws penalties like crazy for a potent PP.  He's a streaky scorer, but still makes an impact even when he's not scoring, unlike some other fwds who make more $.

 

Essentially, they got OEL and Garland for Dylan Guenther.........I take that deal all day long

[stawns]

6 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

I suppose one can try to justify that the picks won't work out. Everyone sees it different. I get OEL is somewhat market value. He's just not someone we needed when we already had a guy eating up 25 min at LD. We needed a RD OEL. Huge money tied up there not really paying dividends and contributing to the cap problem while aging quickly. Garland is also 5 mil tied on a small 3rd line winger who doesn't PK. Pretty much useless when we bring in Mikeyhev and Kuzmenko, and sign Boeser, and Miller. 

 

I will admit OEL is silently having a pretty good year after looking horrendous when initially paired with CG.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I'm now calling Myers CG. 

The current regimes f*** ups have no bearing on the actual trade.  You wouldn't take OEL and Garland for Dylan Guenther?

[Gawdzukes]

37 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

No Neely was worse. We traded away a 1st round 3rd overall, AND Cam Neely for Barry Pederson. We lost a guy who could fight, and up to 90 points a season in his prime, 5 time all star. The reasons by Coach Tom Watt "He couldn't play defence...". For a player that got 76 points his first season and gradually fell apart, was traded to Pittsburgh, and eventually retired in 1991-92.

 

The Canucks should have fired Benning or just not renewed his contract in Spring of 2021. And rode out 2021.

If OEL was like 2015-16 OEL for the rest of his contract no one would complain. Problem is time catches up to everyone. Well maybe for the exception of Jagr.

OEL trade was one just a series of bad deals and bad signings. Benning was too busy rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to see the ship was sinking.

 

 

Oh I agree, I was only 12 though so I didn't follow the behind the scenes stuff like I do now so didn't really feel the pain as much.

 

Totally agree on Benning. Riding out the one year instead of being desperate for short term success could have deployed that money in better ways. He was so busy with that stuff he forgot about the important things like PK, and 3rd line center.

[stawns]

23 minutes ago, steviewonder20 said:

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/canucks-will-never-get-better-if-theyre-unwilling-to-get-worse-6262033
 

Sorry if this has already been posted, but I agree with the sentiment: we will never get better until we get worse. To go for a “hockey trade” rather than getting picks and prospects is to continue mediocrity in the race for playoff revenue, but will never get us a Stanley Cup. Fed up with ownership.

how many teams have been successful selling most of their top players for picks?  Compared to teams who "re-tool" with good hockey trades?

[jyu]

Just now, stawns said:

The current regimes f*** ups have no bearing on the actual trade.  You wouldn't take OEL and Garland for Dylan Guenther?

While I respect your take on Garland and OEL, it is not OEL and Garland vs Guenther. 
 

If OEL deal wasnt available in 2020, we would have re-signed Tanev so it would be Tanev + Guenther vs OEL + Garland. Even if you look at 2021 as the reference point, it would be Schmidt + Guenther. 
 

The cap space for the former case is 6 mil (5+1), the latter is 12 mil. That extra cap space is what we need to sign/trade for another defenceman. Heck, we could have Tanev, Schmidt, and Guenther if JB played it better. 
 

QH-Tanev

Schmidt-Schenn

 

[R3aL]

10 minutes ago, jyu said:

While I respect your take on Garland and OEL, it is not OEL and Garland vs Guenther. 
 

If OEL deal wasnt available in 2020, we would have re-signed Tanev so it would be Tanev + Guenther vs OEL + Garland. Even if you look at 2021 as the reference point, it would be Schmidt + Guenther. 
 

The cap space for the former case is 6 mil (5+1), the latter is 12 mil. That extra cap space is what we need to sign/trade for another defenceman. Heck, we could have Tanev, Schmidt, and Guenther if JB played it better. 
 

QH-Tanev

Schmidt-Schenn

 

Schmidt eh. 

[stawns]

7 minutes ago, jyu said:

While I respect your take on Garland and OEL, it is not OEL and Garland vs Guenther. 
 

If OEL deal wasnt available in 2020, we would have re-signed Tanev so it would be Tanev + Guenther vs OEL + Garland. Even if you look at 2021 as the reference point, it would be Schmidt + Guenther. 
 

The cap space for the former case is 6 mil (5+1), the latter is 12 mil. That extra cap space is what we need to sign/trade for another defenceman. Heck, we could have Tanev, Schmidt, and Guenther if JB played it better. 
 

QH-Tanev

Schmidt-Schenn

 

you can't play what ifs when you evaluate trades.  I think they would have cut bait with Tanev regardless........he simply couldn't stay healthy in Van and I don't think they were willing to pay a player the kind of money CT wanted to sit on IR for big chunks of the season.  Schmidt didn't work out and never seemed like he fit in to the dressing room very well.  Not many here were sad to see him go.

 

Had they not traded for OEL, they'd be far, far worse off than they are now and would probably have had to overpay a lesser dman to fill that spot.

[MeanSeanBean]

21 minutes ago, stawns said:

OEL is a legit top 3 dman and was the best dman on the team last season.  He started out slow this year, but is now on pace for 40ish points, while being a good defensive player as well.  Garland is one of the most effective possession fwds on the team, goes to all the dirty areas and draws penalties like crazy for a potent PP.  He's a streaky scorer, but still makes an impact even when he's not scoring, unlike some other fwds who make more $.

 

Essentially, they got OEL and Garland for Dylan Guenther.........I take that deal all day long

He certainly was not the best dman on the team last year in my eyes. Nor do I think his play at any point this year defensively been acceptable for a top 3 dman. I also do not think Garland is the player you describe. I think he's good, but I also don't think he's meshed with literally anyone on this trade. Who does Garland have legitimate chemistry with on this team?

 

That last point is an incredibly insincere argument. We didn't get those players for just a top 10 prospect. It also cost us a boat load in cap flexibility. To bring it back to the reason why we are in this thread, cap flexibility is why we are in the cusp of losing our 2nd best center, and our captain. No one thinks Horvat is a bad player, or captain, or not a fit for this team. But if we sign him we have no flexibility going forward to improve this team. The cap has dictated we essentially have to move on from him.

 

The 13 million that we used up on OEL and Garland would have been far better off invested in a Horvat extension and another top 4 Dman like Marino in the summer. I'd far rather this team have Horvat, Guenther and Marino then OEL and Garland. 

 

This new management has been rumored to be trying to trade Garland since the day they got here, and will have to build this team around OEL not by choice, but because he's a near immovable contract. You can think this was a great trade all you want, but I think this trade is the reason why the team is in such a terrible position right now. It encapsulates everything wrong with Bennings time here, and why he no longer has a job in the NHL. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Shayster007

[Petey Castiglione]

Ekblad please.  Draft top 5 for our new Center.

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

He certainly was not the best dman on the team last year in my eyes. Nor do I think his play at any point this year defensively been acceptable for a top 3 dman. I also do not think Garland is the player you describe. I think he's good, but I also don't think he's meshed with literally anyone on this trade. Who does Garland have legitimate chemistry with on this team?

 

 

 

That last point is an incredibly insincere argument. We didn't get those players for just a top 10 prospect. It also cost us a boat load in cap flexibility. To bring it back to the reason why we are in this thread, cap flexibility is why we are in the cusp of losing our 2nd best center, and our captain. No one thinks Horvat is a bad player, or captain, or not a fit for this team. But if we sign him we have no flexibility going forward to improve this team. The cap has dictated we essentially have to move on from him.

 

 

 

That 13 million that we used up on OEL and Garland would have been far better off invested in a Horvat extension and another top 4 Dman like Marino in the summer. I'd far rather this team have Horvat, Guenther and Marino then OEL and Garland. 

 

 

 

This new management has been rumored to be trying to trade Garland since the day they got here, and will have to build this team around OEL not by choice, but because he's a near immovable contract. You can think this was a great trade all you want, but I think this trade is the reason why the team is in such a terrible position right now. It encapsulates everything wrong with Bennings time here, and why he no longer has a job in the NHL. 

again, more "what ifs".  You don't know they'd have got Marino, you don't know they'd have been able to sign a UFA for cheap or that he'd be half the dman OEL is.  OELis an excellent dman who has turned his season comppletely around and is on track for a very, very good season and, again, making good on his contract value.

 

The biggest issue with that trade is that the new management decided to double down on MIller and Boeser.

[MeanSeanBean]

6 minutes ago, stawns said:

again, more "what ifs".  You don't know they'd have got Marino, you don't know they'd have been able to sign a UFA for cheap or that he'd be half the dman OEL is.  OELis an excellent dman who has turned his season comppletely around and is on track for a very, very good season and, again, making good on his contract value.

 

The biggest issue with that trade is that the new management decided to double down on MIller and Boeser.

This biggest issue with that trade was that trade happening. But yeah, I don't think we should have doubled down on Miller either.

 

Doesn't change the fact that this franchise would be in a far better position if the OEL trade never happened. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, I bet this new management teams wishes they could reverse that move, and rightfully so.

 

We have heard rumors of a Garland trade, and asking OEL waiving his NTC. Just rumors, but still. If we were to try to move on from those contracts, I guarantee you we don't recoup the value of a top 10 pick, let alone the 2nd and cap space. I'm incapable of trying to be objective about this trade, because for this franchise that trade was a terribly near sighted blunder.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Shayster007

[stawns]

5 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

This biggest issue with that trade was that trade happening. But yeah, I don't think we should have doubled down on Miller either.

 

Doesn't change the fact that this franchise would be in a far better position if the OEL trade never happened. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, I bet this new management teams wishes they could reverse that move, and rightfully so.

 

We have heard rumors of a Garland trade, and asking OEL waiving his NTC. Just rumors, but still. If we were to try to move on from those contracts, I guarantee you we don't recoup the value of a top 10 pick, let alone the 2nd and cap space. I'm incapable of trying to be objective about this trade, because for this franchise that trade was a terribly near sighted blunder.

how would they be better without a top 2-3 dman?  That's a pretty big piece not in the lineup

[Junkyard Dog]

15 minutes ago, stawns said:

The current regimes f*** ups have no bearing on the actual trade.  You wouldn't take OEL and Garland for Dylan Guenther?

A bit more to it than just Guenther but I would yeah.

[MeanSeanBean]

5 minutes ago, stawns said:

how would they be better without a top 2-3 dman?  That's a pretty big piece not in the lineup

It's not like having him in the lineup is doing any good... Teams still capped out, 24th in the league, and about to get far worse if we trade Bo. Long term, maybe we would be better without another top 3 Dman and allowing Rathbone to play. At least young players would get minutes and this team might be down a few spots to help along a rebuild.

 

I also reckon at least some of that 13 million in cap would have been used on a Dman. Marino, or Tanev re-signing, I dunno.

[DownUndaCanuck]

Bo + 1st + Rathbone for Ekblad + 1st

 

That'd be fun

[Ted Lasso]

10 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Seriously, Dobson is a unicorn, we wouldn't trade a young top pairing RD so why would NYI?

 

You don't trade those.

I know - and it looks like he has 20 pts in 30 games

[Ghostsof1915]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

what's bad about the OEL deal?

High dollars and long term. If either was less it might be easier to stomach.

If Arizona ate 1/2 the contract, that would have been a good deal.

[stawns]

Just now, Ghostsof1915 said:

High dollars and long term. If either was less it might be easier to stomach.

If Arizona ate 1/2 the contract, that would have been a good deal.

How much do top #2-3 dmen go for?

[DrJockitch]

OEL is like the team. Some days he shows up some days he doesn’t. He was a fantastically skilled D man in his youth but as the game got faster and he built up injuries he has more and more bad nights.  
‘The OEL deal should go down as one of the worst for this franchise. We burned a tonne of future assets to get him and Garland.  Not just a high first rounder but what would have been a lot of cap space at a time when nobody had any. It also would have been essentially a tank year which we needed.  We would have had Gunther or whoever got picked and probably would have been a lot higher up than drafting Lekkerimaki and maybe have been able to add something other than another winger. 
Part of the issue was the burning of all of our assets on a player we did not need.  At the time we acquired him our biggest need was same as now a partner for Quinn. Instead we burned every asset we had on a player who should have exactly the same utilization as Quinn. He does not fit the Edler/Ohlund role he has been cast in. His defensive game has been better than advertised some nights but as he ages those nights are getting less frequent.  Garland also was a nonsensical acquisition. Another diminutive scoring winger on a fairly expensive contract. All those assets burned to address our best positions. 
No use re-litigating the past. He is ours to bear. This will end in a buyout but maybe not for a couple years.
Really sounds like JR is looking for players not pics and prospects on deals now so I shudder to see what happens next. No rebuild on the cards for this decade either.